GOA try to get around me!!!

[Soha]

if i start to craft i whould let my son or some 5year old kiddie hold a button for some h .. jsut prvode em with candy and voila ... button 3 pressed constantly for xxx h =) .. is that cheating or acc sharing?

 

[Alan]

if i start to craft i whould let my son or some 5year old kiddie hold a button for some h .. jsut prvode em with candy and voila ... button 3 pressed constantly for xxx h =) .. is that cheating or acc sharing?

Thats not cheating, its child labor

 

[psyco]

if i were a gm, i would perma banned you from all over the internet, for being a smart ass here, and being a twat ingame..


will you ever come up with new stuff then calling me " twat" ? getting kinda dull, and it will impress me if you THINK i actually takes " twat" as an insult :>

LOL, what did i say erlier?

 

[psyco]

They can be random if the algorithm got a random input value.

For example take the radiation level in a room or the noice level in a crowded room as input and you have "random"

that would be the radiation being random/noice level, being random, althought still predictible... and then you would have to run a server, as im sure all comps dont have microphones/radiator detectors(?)

 

[thergador]

i know im right, i can see how people think its random, i would normally shut up, in this situation, but if i did, i would be bored lvling my cabby + idiots would flame

short version of why computers arent random if you have to idenitcal system and run the same program to genarate the number they will both give the same number its the timing is the same or you would never be able to crack randomly genarated numbers

try Google Scholar

plus as for macroing i would not do it
but a simple c++ proggy could easily fool any one looking at a log simple genarate an array of array of X size fill that with times have some with timed pause of .001 secs if the system pick one of those it appears to be a double tap also have the proggy press more than one button.
as and admin i look for paterns in server logs (well my system looks for paterns and im sure its the same for goa/mythic.

but really GoA/mythic sort out crafting and peeps will not be tempted to macro it. (mind you i have read some good books while crafting book in one hand other hand over button got some resreach done while playing )

 

[psyco]

short version of why computers arent random if you have to idenitcal system and run the same program to genarate the number they will both give the same number its the timing is the same or you would never be able to crack randomly genarated numbers

try Google Scholar

plus as for macroing i would not do it
but a simple c++ proggy could easily fool any one looking at a log simple genarate an array of array of X size fill that with times have some with timed pause of .001 secs if the system pick one of those it appears to be a double tap also have the proggy press more than one button.
as and admin i look for paterns in server logs (well my system looks for paterns and im sure its the same for goa/mythic.

but really GoA/mythic sort out crafting and peeps will not be tempted to macro it. (mind you i have read some good books while crafting book in one hand other hand over button got some resreach done while playing )

before i make a half arsed attempted to defend myself, is this a direct flame against me? or a suporting one, if so why did you choose to quote me over kinetix?

 

[Waspic]

before i make a half arsed attempted to defend myself, is this a direct flame against me? or a suporting one, if so why did you choose to quote me over kinetix?

He's supporting u, m8 '
And so do I btw

 

[toxii]

Thats not cheating, its child labor

indeed, lets ban soha now for abusing his children...


on drugs today tears? :x

 

[Ronso]

Lawsuit

 

[Sharaft]

Thats not cheating, its child labor

i just looove slavery! *kapiiish* whiplash!

 

[Killder]

If GOA say you're macroing, I'm 99.99% convinced that they are correct!

If you are ..... SHAME ON YOU!

Levelling up a Crafter is not as bad as crybaby whiners make out - just read a book or watch TV while occasionally pressing a button, you dont need to risk using dodgy software that could get you banned.

 

[thergador]

before i make a half arsed attempted to defend myself, is this a direct flame against me? or a suporting one, if so why did you choose to quote me over kinetix?

it ment as the simple facts m8 its part of a resreach area i have had to look at and basically a cpu cant genarate a random number its mathamtically impossible as if u use a forumal/algorythum to genarate the number its not random and that what computer system do.

in fact most things in nature follow physic's models and r there for not random iirc correctly only the flight path of a butterfly is the only truely random activity

there for if you want to make an random number gerarator you would have to have a butterfly that on one else could get to and use the direction speed altitude time ect to help genarate the number how ever, this would fail at the home user level so to most people. there is no such thing as a random number.

oh and i quoted ur self m8 as i saw what i said in the same line of thought as what you had said

ps and i am using the standard physic's model not the quantum physic's model (due to us only being in the age that we can only see 5 dimentions and throwing in 2 more dimintions would enable random number but cpu's dont use quantum(tri state) mathamatics. and before some say's they are testing it ill say yes they are trying to but they have managed to get it working, they have now moved from tristate to quantum nanocomputing(see Qubit.org)

 

[toxii]

If GOA say you're macroing, I'm 99.99% convinced that they are correct!

that's sadly true

goa aren't banning people unless they are 101% sure that they have broken coc and cheated

 

[psyco]

it ment as the simple facts m8 its part of a resreach area i have had to look at and basically a cpu cant genarate a random number its mathamtically impossible as if u use a forumal/algorythum to genarate the number its not random and that what computer system do.

in fact most things in nature follow physic's models and r there for not random iirc correctly only the flight path of a butterfly is the only truely random activity

there for if you want to make an random number gerarator you would have to have a butterfly that on one else could get to and use the direction speed altitude time ect to help genarate the number how ever, this would fail at the home user level so to most people. there is no such thing as a random number.

oh and i quoted ur self m8 as i saw what i said in the same line of thought as what you had said

ps and i am using the standard physic's model not the quantum physic's model (due to us only being in the age that we can only see 5 dimentions and throwing in 2 more dimintions would enable random number but cpu's dont use quantum(tri state) mathamatics. and before some say's they are testing it ill say yes they are trying to but they have managed to get it working, they have now moved from tristate to quantum nanocomputing(see Qubit.org)

you would have to make sure that the numbers were equal distance from the butterfly's flight path, and about the butterfly being the only random thing in the world, i disagree, it will fly to flowers more often that any thing else

 

[Esselinithia]

thats not telling me its random, it tells me, computers by definision are not random, then it tryed to convince me otherwize, but doesn't egsactly expane the process

psyco: it explains it pretty clear. There are two ways to generate some random looking data:

1st: Measure something that is random.
2nd: Pseudo random number generators (mathematics)

The former way requires some hardware, some external source of random data, and you will get real random numbers, from real random data. Measuring radiation is an easy way to do it, but there are many good ways to read random data.

Most cryptographic applications can create good enough random data from mouse and keyboard input, and if it is good for cryptography it would be good for many other uses. You can also use fluctuations in temperature, voltages, etc (values you get from various sensors in your computer) for relatively decent results.

The later idea can be good, or can be bad, but it is hard to find out the pseudo random nature of any data.

Also, the timing, measured on the server, can be influenced by lag, which isn't constant... Measured on the client? Again, you can find many factors that can influence the data, and if you record more than a single key, and use some longer session, make some added (pseudo random) pauses between keystrokes, it is hard to detect macroing.

Either GOA monitors all activity on your computer, and records it (if you play World of Warcraft, you have to accept this monitoring, like the rest of the terms and conditions), but GOA doesn't ask for a permission for such monitoring (but has permissions to store the data sent to their server) which would make this approach illegal.

Radar, and other cheats that interact with network traffic are easy to detect, but macroing, jamming keys?

Some people experienced messages from GMs about AFK check, it is probably one line of defense, but do everyone knows what to do with a such AFK check? It isn't neccessary, so it can create a false positive alert.

Luckily, for a such AFK check, you need some reports, and also the GMs have one valuable source of information: logs. No chat, for hours, just crafting? it is suspicious. But if they check your locs, and even your movement data (or lack of movement) looks bad, they have one more reason to believe something isn't right.

And this is where they have some GM commands. Teleporting, changed items, monsters attacking you, etc. can "force" a non AFK player to react, lack of reaction would show almost certain AFK status. Is it certain?

Yes, and no. It shows if the player was paying attention at the time of GM action, but doesn't show if the player was paying attention when he started working on the last item.

If you craft and you know it takes about 50 secounds, you might alt tab, post on forums, chat, and go back to the game. You might have to go to the toilet, have a phone call, watch TV, etc. so it is only working IF the GMs wait till you press the craft button (probably at wrong place) without reacting to changes. At that time they have strong enough proof.

But also your online schedule, daily activity, etc can be used as added proof, and there is more, and more.

 

[Esselinithia]

If GOA say you're macroing, I'm 99.99% convinced that they are correct!

If you are ..... SHAME ON YOU!

Levelling up a Crafter is not as bad as crybaby whiners make out - just read a book or watch TV while occasionally pressing a button, you dont need to risk using dodgy software that could get you banned.

The Code of Conduct doesn't only say no third party program (macroing) but it also say, you must be present and pay attention to the game when you play it. If you occassionally press a button but stay AFK, it is just as illegal. It is hard to detect macroing (Much harder to detect lego robot with a long enough program to follow) without breaking some rules on GOAs part, but it is pretty easy to detect AFK status

 

[Brackus]

Anyway its complete nonsense GOA closing accounts and acusing ppl of having a macro program. There is no way daoc client can see diference between keyboard input or program char input.
if they acuse ppl just because they didnt respond if PMed thats bull#%&"
there are more then 20 useable programs for macro with mouse/keyboard input.

Is a wrench/pencil stuck on the FoP keyboard button a macro? Lol

Using anything while your not at the keyboard is against CoC i think,
however If I paid a monkey to bang on the keys hoping he hits the right ones, I dont know if that is allowed or not, anyone?

 

[psyco]

The Code of Conduct doesn't only say no third party program (macroing) but it also say, you must be present and pay attention to the game when you play it. If you occassionally press a button but stay AFK, it is just as illegal. It is hard to detect macroing (Much harder to detect lego robot with a long enough program to follow) without breaking some rules on GOAs part, but it is pretty easy to detect AFK status

its ileagel to be afk?

weather isn't random, nore is radation level's, you can predict its course

 

[Esselinithia]

Being AFK and doing things in game (spellcasting, crafting) is illegal.

Also circumventing the automatic log out for AFK time is illegal.

This is why they can catch "autocrafters easily".

 

[psyco]

Also circumventing the automatic log out for AFK time is illegal.

so its not ileagel to go eat dinner without loggin ofF?

 

[Thadius]

The Code of Conduct doesn't only say no third party program (macroing) but it also say, you must be present and pay attention to the game when you play it. If you occassionally press a button but stay AFK, it is just as illegal. It is hard to detect macroing (Much harder to detect lego robot with a long enough program to follow) without breaking some rules on GOAs part, but it is pretty easy to detect AFK status

Lol seriously?

So if Im on the playstation and I am glancing at the screen whilst crafting, I can get banned? Oo

 

[psyco]

i think it shows how much we pay attention to the CoC, lol, then brag that we got suspended, when infact its in the CoC, we just didn't realise it, lol>.<

 

[Esselinithia]

so its not ileagel to go eat dinner without loggin ofF?

This is why do you have /afk command.

But if you don't pay attention to the game, (don't play it) yet your character acts, and advances that is illegal

But we can only know it from the GMs, since the daoc_roc.txt doesn't have anything about it, and the only part of EULA that can govern this question is:

6. Piracy, damage, modifications or changes to the Game and its Expansions.
It is strictly prohibited to use any third-party software or any other device with a view to modifying the Game and its Expansions in any way, changing the way of playing said Game and its Expansions or playing in an abnormal manner or in a way that could impair the correct operation of the Game and its Expansions. The authorisations granted to you in accordance with this Agreement may under no circumstances be used for the purpose of creating or supplying any opportunity for third parties to access the Game and its Expansions, particularly through server emulators. Furthermore, you may not undertake any action that would impose an unreasonable or disproportionate burden on our infrastructure.

As you see, even banning jammed keys, etc. is just an interpretation of this rule. Why such activities are illegal? Because they change the way how the game is played. The game is designed to reward you for doing tasks, while playing the game and paying attention.

Jamming keys for FOP duties, killing your own characters, organized duels and RP farming, spying on other realms, crafting without playing the game, etc. all changes how the game is played and uses either software (including your web browser, MSN, irc) or devices (coins, pencil, your keyboard) for this purpose

As you see, even using FH, irc, TS, or other normally allowed tools can change the way how the game is played and get you an unfair advantage (more rewards for less activity), while programing a programmable button on your keyboard in same way you would use a /macro isn't that bad.

The question is mostly about how your activities change the game, and what kind of advantages you get from it

 

[Esselinithia]

i think it shows how much we pay attention to the CoC, lol, then brag that we got suspended, when infact its in the CoC, we just didn't realise it, lol>.<

psyco: I beg to difer, the problem with it is a bit different, both DAOC EULA and DAOC ROC are rather vague for a reason. There is no way to predict how people will cheat, so they have to define, anything outside the normal way to play the game is illegal.

Both Radar, and use of TS (or ventrillo) can get you extra information (and up to date) in RVR faster than people who just use their screens and the in game channels. One is illegal, other is legal. Is the difference in EULA / ROC? No. One is considered abnormal, other is normal. Based on how people see it.

If you organize an ML9 raid here, on FH, you have advantages over people who try to organize it only using /as, /gu, /b, and the LFG window, but organizing events with 3rd party tools are ok. But if you use it for an organized RVR event, that is easy RP for both sides (competition between champions of the realms, aka dueling) you do something illegal.

When you SEE Mythic working on different routing for different kind of monsters in same area: Some can swim, some can't, some can go to land, some can't, some can fly, some can't... They worked a lot of extra, to make these monsters different, and allow different tactics. Some might consider: You can use these features since Mythic have put effort in them. Some might say: They would give unfair advantages and might force GOA to work extra, and thus illegal.

Example: Pulling leviathan and other fish with some of your group out of water: Illegal (according to a GOA GM who was contacted when some of the fish spawned by leviathan ended up on the shore), diving against tornadoes, running in water against some monsters: common practice, and GMs are OK with it.

We don't know how some people will interpret the rules, and what he / she will think about certain actions.

For some, watching TV while crafting is normal since crafting is boring and you have to wait, for some it isn't playing the game, but just hitting a button as a background activity. It is hard to draw the line between these.

Also for emote spam: 4 emotes QUICKLY or 7 Slowly can be different, one can be spam, other can be RP.

While some can pay attention to Rules of Conduct and EULA, they have no chance to know exactly what is right, what is wrong. But they can find good guidelines and say: Better safe than sorry...

 

[Kinetix]

Example: Pulling leviathan and other fish with some of your group out of water: Illegal (according to a GOA GM who was contacted when some of the fish spawned by leviathan ended up on the shore), diving against tornadoes, running in water against some monsters: common practice, and GMs are OK with it.

Sorry but that is just pure nonsense, its like saying to a fisherman they must dive in water to fish and hunting for birds you must fly.

These types of rules are NOT WRITEN anywere and the fact ppl use it to kill some fish mobs its Mythic´s fault. Not our fault programers didnt make the dam fishes smart to dive out of range. These "abuse" situations dont exist they just exist in the mind/perspective of GMs.

For example if you engage a mob and dont attack him for a long time he runs off, if a mob is on low life sometimes he trys to run off, why would it be any different with fishes? if they are not in LoS of Pets users they would run off? Thats bad programing tbh. I can give several examples of Hunting mobs "differently" and altho they dont use water and fishes it makes that a suposed encounter gets easyer pulling mob to another place etc etc.

Dont get me wrong but i think that GMs spend too much time on unusefull things instead of fixing the real bugs.

 

[psyco]

Dont get me wrong but i think that GMs spend too much time on unusefull things instead of fixing the real bugs.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kinetix again.

boo

 

[Waspic]

These types of rules are NOT WRITEN anywere and the fact ppl use it to kill some fish mobs its Mythic´s fault. Not our fault programers didnt make the dam fishes smart to dive out of range. These "abuse" situations dont exist they just exist in the mind/perspective of GMs.

It's not illegal to think and draw conclusions where the law/rules stop.
Afaik there's a law in Alaska saying that it's illegal to throw a moose out of a flying aircraft - that law doesn't exist in Denmark, but that doesn't mean it's ok there
So why do ppl not throw mooses out of moving aircrafts all the time in Denmark? Maybe cuz they can actually think - and Hurray for that

I see what u mean, but spoken/written language is a poor instrument to understand our world, and there will always be holes that can be abused.

Ofc it's not illegal to be AFK, the very word is explained on CamelotHerald's Beginner's Guide.

I think it's not so hard to understand - based on CoC - what things are ok and not ok. I do think that most ppl abusing bugs or software deep in their heart know that they're doing something not ok.

 

[Kinetix]

It's not illegal to think and draw conclusions where the law/rules stop.
Afaik there's a law in Alaska saying that it's illegal to throw a moose out of a flying aircraft - that law doesn't exist in Denmark, but that doesn't mean it's ok there
So why do ppl not throw mooses out of moving aircrafts all the time in Denmark? Maybe cuz they can actually think - and Hurray for that

I see what u mean, but spoken/written language is a poor instrument to understand our world, and there will always be holes that can be abused.

Ofc it's not illegal to be AFK, the very word is explained on CamelotHerald's Beginner's Guide.

I think it's not so hard to understand - based on CoC - what things are ok and not ok. I do think that most ppl abusing bugs or software deep in their heart know that they're doing something not ok.

Well then be sure to know that in Denmark you can throw mooses out of a airplane you wont get arrested (unless the moose hits some1 down there or unless you get sued by animal protection )

Like i said and ill stick to it .... its bad programing. Tbh there are fishes that fly, birds that dive in water and humans that Suicide does that make them ilegal just cause they dont do what the majority does?

if i were to use GTAOE lets say on leviathan while being outside water is that illegal? lol

In my heart what i do know is that Mythic failed on that Game programing and since they cant be blaimed for bad programing they blame players for bad gaming

 

[Waspic]

Mythic failed on that Game programing and since they cant be blaimed for bad programing they blame players for bad gaming

But ofcourse they do
Don't we blame ppl doing crimes all the time?

On a second note...moral questions is what make an activity worth to do imo.
A game like DAoC is a complex thing, and it's almost impossible to isolate every simple action and make illegal things impossible to do. Think about it - it would be like going to the kindergarden again lol - there's fence around the trees, cuz the adults are afraid that the kids climb them, and the stones in the yard are made of soft rubber, cuz the adults don't want the kids to throw them at eachother...etc...etc...etc......ZZzzzzzzz
Oh da boredom!

 

[Esselinithia]

Most fishes doesn't have intelligence to run away, Mythic did put a lot of effort in making these monsters different, if you see from this perspective, this isn't a bug, but a game feature, so if you attack them and let your clerics stay out of water, that isn't a bug abuse. The encouter is hard enough already (even with this), and it is probably measured into its difficulty. If not, Mythic can change things.

But GOA can point to another rule: You can't put any extra work on their shoulder, unless they find it reasonable. Checking with Mythic about each and every mob, if it gets buged fixing it to make such tactics working well, providing assistance, etc is "unreasonable amount of work" so unless Mythic makes it clear the encounter runs that way, and fixes related bugs, it can be illegal on GOA servers.

On Mythic? if you help them to duplicate and fix a bug you get rewarded... So risking problems in bugous encounters while using a designed feature, isn't unreasonable work for them, but helps them with improving the game, etc. You see the difference?