Gay priests, bishops etc etc

[dysfunction]

Originally posted by Furr
Well since this hasn't come up yet, what are your thoughts on gay priests, bishops etc etc

Should the Church adhere to the bible or should it not? Was the Vatican right to send out its memo telling people that homosexuality is evil.

Since most of you are either atheist or agnostic (including me) it would be intresting to see what you lot think.

I couldnt care less if there are gay priests, bishops etc.
It shouldnt make any difference to anything.

Its these religious people who interpret things in the bible that are not actually there...like gays are evil etc.

But I'm not religious so its of no concern to me really. What I dont like is people using religion to persecute people for not conforming to the ways of the so called rightous....pisses me off no end!

 

[Jonny_Darko]

I like to believe in something bigger than all this. Fate, Mother Earth, whatever. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm alive now, I could be dead tomorrow, I WILL be dead in 80 years time, and there's no more to it.

I'm not wasting my life living it the way some other people say I should, not without a reason to believe.

I'd be happy to believe in God, and to live by His will. But I don't think it's too much to expect some proof first. Come to me as a burning bush and I'm yours. Expect me to blindly believe in something that only seems to cause war and hate? Sod off. Even if I did choose a religion, which one? There's an ending to a Babylon5 episode where Sinclair shows off Earth's religious culture at a festival, by introducing alien ambassadors to a representative of every Earth religion...there's thousands!

There's also a genius South Park Double Episode called "Do The Handicapped Go To Hell? / Probably" in which it is revealed that the only true religion is Mormonism - only Mormons go to heaven. What a sorry state of affairs that would be!

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

The problem with expecting proof is that if you're going down a general Christian route (and most of the major religions), God expects you to choose to believe or not. The concept being that if you are given proof of God's existence then you are no longer deciding of a free will whether to believe or not.

 

[DaGaffer]

Originally posted by Scooba Da Bass
The problem with expecting proof is that if you're going down a general Christian route (and most of the major religions), God expects you to choose to believe or not. The concept being that if you are given proof of God's existence then you are no longer deciding of a free will whether to believe or not.

How convienient for those selling their particular brand of snake oil. And of course, if he does exist, then free will is an illusion! The presence of an omnipotent being removes free will from the universe because he knows what's going to happen (your path through life is predetermined once it is observed, only when its not observed can choice exist). If there is no true free will, why test to see if you're stupid enough to think there is? Of course if free will does exist, then that precludes the existence of God so you shouldn't bother worshipping him because he's not there.

And frankly, if he is there, why is an all-powerful being so interested in a bunch of meat bags from a backwater planet at the arse end of the whole vast universe getting down on their knees to worship him? Sounds like a pretty needy guy to me; a bit like a kid in the back garden tormenting ants with a magnifying glass.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

I don't know what just happened, but there was a blood curdling scream in DaGaffer's office, the floor was ripped asunder, and he fell into a pit of flames.

I'm still shaking, he's just gone. Everyone's still in a state of shock.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm back. Gas leak.

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

A God knowing what you are going to do doesn't preclude free will. Just as if I analysed your personality I could roughly predict what you'd do in a situation. Does the fact that I know what you'll end up doing preclude your free will?

 

[Will]

Did Wij not do an essay about this a few months ago?

 

[DaGaffer]

Originally posted by Scooba Da Bass
A God knowing what you are going to do doesn't preclude free will. Just as if I analysed your personality I could roughly predict what you'd do in a situation. Does the fact that I know what you'll end up doing preclude your free will?

Yes it does because its not real free will, its an illusion. If you (the observer/God) knew the outcome of everything I was going to do because you 'have the script', then I can think I have free will but I don't because my actions are predetermined. Only in a universe where the future is a blank sheet of paper that we move into collapsed wave states as we observe it can free will exist. If this is how the universe works then God can't see into the future either and is therefore not omnipotent (or indeed, creator of the universe) just very, very powerful (and maybe creator of bits of the universe perhaps), but this seems very unlikely and not the way he's been sold.

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

This is where I start getting shaky as Calvin bored me to tears. As I understand it the idea is akin to an Author who directs a story whilst giving the Character's their own personalities. I'll dig up some stuff on Calvinism when I can unless someone who is actually a practicing Christian can shed some light on it.

(I'd like to point out again that I'm not a Christian or even religious, but am on this side since it's not fair to have the religious people being based by everyone)

 

[Will]

To use something from my student days, if I start a chemical reaction, and can observe what is happening, doesn't mean I know exactly where it is going, or that I can control it.

 

[DaGaffer]

Originally posted by Will
To use something from my student days, if I start a chemical reaction, and can observe what is happening, doesn't mean I know exactly where it is going, or that I can control it.

Yeah, but you're not God, who is supposed to be omnipotent and hence know the past, present and future. If you don't know that, you're not the God advertised in three desert religions.

 

[DaGaffer]

Originally posted by Scooba Da Bass


(I'd like to point out again that I'm not a Christian or even religious, but am on this side since it's not fair to have the religious people being bashed by everyone)

Yes it is. It's called 'testing their faith' - positively encouraged I would think.

 

[Slug]

God is supposed to make us what we are, so isnt them being gay Gods fault? or the way he intended them to be?

therefore they must be allowed in otherwise its defying god..

 

[Clowneh!]

'free will'

if you believe in that..

 

[Slug]

touche

 

[Jonny_Darko]

I liked it when the whale jumped over that wall at the end.

 

[Big G]

The "god" part of religion is interesting (my jury is still out), it's the bullshit in the middle and the hypocrisy of humans that really get on my tits.

I grew up with parents who weren't religious and i went to a non-denominational school but still had religious education (never believed in it, along with the majority of kids) but then i switched to a catholic school and couldn't believe the brainwashing and hypocrisy of their behaivour.

Most of them were religious and went to mass purely because they're forced to do so by their parents, and are only baptised because their parents dragged them along to chapel as a kid (further confirming that religion hinges on mass indoctrination). A lot of them would say "i don't believe in any of it", so why make yourself look like a complete pratt by telling me that it really is christ's body your eating up there?!

Additionally, i can't get out of my head that a lot of terrorism (northern ireland, sept 11th etc) and war is all about one religion v's another religion. It's the route of all evil imo

Gaz

 

[Meatballs]

Tangent >

Originally posted by Scooba Da Bass
The problem with expecting proof is that if you're going down a general Christian route (and most of the major religions), God expects you to choose to believe or not. The concept being that if you are given proof of God's existence then you are no longer deciding of a free will whether to believe or not.

You say God expects us to choose, but then you're using human concepts, and defining God in our image (and if he did exist I would think he would be pretty much indescribable), not vice-versa, and I think God and Gods are just ways of trying to quantify the universe, like scientific method n stuffe.

 

[doh_boy]

Originally posted by Big G

Additionally, i can't get out of my head that a lot of terrorism (northern ireland, sept 11th etc) and war is all about one religion v's another religion. It's the route of all evil imo

Gaz

N Ireland is more about race than religion. It started (more or less) AGES ago when the British government decided to 'flood' british sympathetic protestants from scotland into Ireland by putting prices up for the indigenous populous (which contained protestants albeit not many) and halfing them for the protestants. Of course this cause resentment and it was not long until fighting and violance broke out.

The current situation I'm a bit more hazy about but iirc the situation is this.

In 1916 the irish resistance rebelled in the easter uprising. They were out-numbered by the army but luck and determination (and the fact that the government at the time was getting tired of the on-going problems in Ireland) mean't that the Irish parlament covened for the first time on easter monday 1916 and declared its independance. The trouble with the orangemen came about because the orangemen refused to fight for independance saying they prefered british rule. I'm not sure how the two countries were split and stuff (only that they're somewhere near where the battle-lines were drawn ages ago when william of Orange faughtt the Irish). I do know that after that life as a catholic in N Ireland wasn't fun 1) You couldn't own a business (my grandma told me this so I figure its the truth but you can never tell) and 2) The police-force was protestant only (if you were catholic you couldn't join).

Also the reason why the government drew the battle-lines with respect to race was the fact that most of the resistence groups were local religious (or church affiliated) groups and of course history (some people have long memories).

 

[Yoni]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Big G

Most of them were religious and went to mass purely because they're forced to do so by their parents, and are only baptised because their parents dragged them along to chapel as a kid

Gaz [/QUOTE]

As part of the Catholic religion parents bring their children up as Catholics naturally, so yes we do go to church because our parents want us to, the same way we went to school (I am sure most days some of us did not want to do that either).

As for baptism well for Catholics gaz it usually occurs when you are weeks old - so we would hardly be kicking and screaming, as we have no knowledge of this.

Catholics have a sacrament called confirmation; (this differs from the COE that is the equivalent of the Catholic sacrament of Holy Communion). It is the time when our parents / religious teachers believe we are ready to make up our own minds if we want to be re-baptised hence the symbolic gesture of taking new names etc.

There is indoctrination to a point in that we are taught a subject at school / church however most students I studied RE with at school were highly questionable about the scriptures and did not just accept them as written (as one would question any subject).

I have always used my catholic upbringing as a set of guidelines to help me through life - I do not go to church and I no longer feel guilty for everything.

I do feel that this first gay bishop can only be a good thing as hopefully it will allow those religions with "rules" still stuck out there in the dark ages (I include Catholicism in this) to evolve to incorporate more modern and liberal thinking.

I believe although I am not absolutely certain that the IRA were excommunicated from the Catholic church. <goes to check facts>

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

Originally posted by Meatballs
You say God expects us to choose, but then you're using human concepts, and defining God in our image (and if he did exist I would think he would be pretty much indescribable), not vice-versa, and I think God and Gods are just ways of trying to quantify the universe, like scientific method n stuffe.

No, I'm using concepts from the bible.

 

[Big G]

Originally posted by Y0ni
As for baptism well for Catholics gaz it usually occurs when you are weeks old - so we would hardly be kicking and screaming, as we have no knowledge of this.

forgive my poor phrasing, i mean baptised with no choice and dragged to church.

Gaz

 

[Yoni]

Originally posted by Big G


forgive my poor phrasing, i mean baptised with no choice and dragged to church.

Gaz

Sorry if you think I am picking on you but I am just trying to give you some insight on how the traditional Catholic parent thinks.

We are not given a choice as a child because we have no mind at that age to decide whether Catholicism is the path for us. My niece and nephew (aged 8 and 6) love going to church probably because unlike when I was a child, children do not have to sit through the sermon / gospels etc they have separate activities which involve drawing and painting until the Eucharist part of the service.

Catholic parents promise when they get married that their children will be bought up as Catholics and I believe that most other faiths i.e. practicing COE / Muslims / Buddhists will do the same. Although Catholics are actually asked this as part of their pre marriage chats with their priest, (I can not speak for the other religions I have mentioned.)

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

Originally posted by Big G
forgive my poor phrasing, i mean baptised with no choice and dragged to church.

If you're religious this is saving your children's souls and done out of a genuine concern...

 

[Clowneh!]

i've been baptised, i went to church every sunday, i took communion and confessed regularly.

im not a cathloic christian or whatever these people are called. i dont do any of this stuff now. i hardly believe in the big man.

bleh whatever

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by Scooba Da Bass
No, I'm using concepts from the bible.

did god write the bible?

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by Scooba Da Bass
A God knowing what you are going to do doesn't preclude free will. Just as if I analysed your personality I could roughly predict what you'd do in a situation. Does the fact that I know what you'll end up doing preclude your free will?

Your personality pre-determines what you are going to do then? and your personality is affected by your genes, and things that happen in your environment, which you dont have control over. Where's the free will?

Anyway I dont think I'll post anymore because well its so off topic, and you cant really discuss religion for too long it's all to conceptual

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

Originally posted by Meatballs
did god write the bible?

Parts of it are, if you believe, directly from the mouth of God.

Your personality pre-determines what you are going to do then? and your personality is affected by your genes, and things that happen in your environment, which you dont have control over. Where's the free will?

Your personality, your prior experiences, and your intuitions control how you respond in situations. Just because your responses are conditioned by what you have been taught, doesn't mean you don't have free will, you are deciding what choices to make, it just happens that you can predict, generally, what a person's response will be to a given situation.

 

[Lester]

is it nihilist?

(previous question)