France ban burkas

[rynnor]

"Oh Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veil) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

It was actually Rynnor who mentioned head to foot, if he specifically meant then I stand corrected, the phrase "Head to Foot" is indeed not specifically mentioned, but the above is near as matters is it not?

Again thats not the text of the Koran but commentaries many of which are disputed by various groups of muslims - its not the direct word of god that the Koran is meant to be.

 

[nath]

I apologise, I suppose I have digressed a little. I don't see why a government should have the ability to tell anyone how they can or cannot dress, and yes, that includes naturists too. It is a simple matter of freedom.

Well we're not free to own firearms because they're dangerous. We're not free to walk about naked in the streets because by and large, our society deems it inappropriate. I don't see this as a big deal personally, and I think it's reasonable to apply the same logic to covering the face.

 

[old.Tohtori]

On a matter of burkas being worn to keep pestering men away, gfiood f*cking idea i say

About religion being a choice; yes, around here it is. Around a muslim coun try, not so much as you're brought up in it and rarely step outside it.

If you're being kept in a cellar and told that the world is flat, it's not your choice to believe it or not as it's your only point of reference.

Also the basic "this is the way of my family" applies to many, which is no different from a "my father was a carpenter and his father one before him, so i am too".

Religion isn't just about sky fairies.

 

[DaGaffer]

On a matter of burkas being worn to keep pestering men away, gfiood f*cking idea i say

I really hope you're joking. Personally I think the need for Burkhas says far more about arab men's neanderthal attitudes towards women than any religious injunction.

About religion being a choice; yes, around here it is. Around a muslim coun try, not so much as you're brought up in it and rarely step outside it.

If you're being kept in a cellar and told that the world is flat, it's not your choice to believe it or not as it's your only point of reference.

Which is fine, except we live in the 21st century. Muslims seem quite comfortable organising mass demonstrations via Facebook, so they're also quite capable of reading and understanding other points of view.

Also the basic "this is the way of my family" applies to many, which is no different from a "my father was a carpenter and his father one before him, so i am too"

Religion isn't just about sky fairies.

And that's the worst defence of all. Its exactly the problem with Islam. "This is how its always been" is the whole problem with idiots applying 6th century values to 21st century problems. For all its faults, western culture broke the control of organised religion over the state and introduced concepts like human rights. In order for human societies to progress they can't be locked into fixed, dogmatic values. Children should always be encouraged to question their elders, not unthinkingly parrot them.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I really hope you're joking. Personally I think the need for Burkhas says far more about arab men's neanderthal attitudes towards women than any religious injunction.

Yes it was a joke regarding western men being moronic pigs

Which is fine, except we live in the 21st century. Muslims seem quite comfortable organising mass demonstrations via Facebook, so they're also quite capable of reading and understanding other points of view.

Still doesn't take away from the lifestyle being the one they know.

IT's like asking a hippie taught kid to become a BP rep.

And that's the worst defence of all. Its exactly the problem with Islam. "This is how its always been" is the whole problem with idiots applying 6th century values to 21st century problems. For all its faults, western culture broke the control of organised religion over the state and introduced concepts like human rights. In order for human societies to progress they can't be locked into fixed, dogmatic values. Children should always be encouraged to question their elders, not unthinkingly parrot them.

It's not a defense, from me atleast. It's just the way of the world, everyone, pleasing parents, going with the family business and so on.

It's not 6th century values, it's just values.

 

[Scouse]

We don't consider nudism to be appropriate for display in public, and in our society the full burqah isn't really appropriate either

I disagree with both your points nath.

Nekkid people = fine.

Ninjas = fine.

Balaclavas = fine.

Hoodies = fine.

Transvestites = fine.

Assless chaps = fine.

Suspicion that this is more to do with a backdoor effort to ban all face coverings (like the ones some protestors wear) = fine.


Also:

Holding religious views = fine.

Expectation that said views should be above belittlement = twat


Edit: Wtf has happened to teh smilies?

 

[Wij]

Dunno. Forum is fucked for me atm :/

 

[nath]

I disagree with both your points nath.

I was saying that the general consensus in this country is that public nudity isn't generally acceptable. You disagree with that comment, or you disagree with the consensus?

 

[Jiggs]

Well it's just about differing attitudes around Europe.

In continental Europe you get to do what the state "allows" you to do whereas in the UK we like to think we have "rights".

I don't really see the problem, France is a secular country so why should they be beholden to religious traditions/laws/whatever?

 

[nath]

In continental Europe you get to do what the state "allows" you to do whereas in the UK we like to think we have "rights".

Well as far as I'm aware, the French public are generally far more politically active than us in the UK. Rallies and marches when they're not happy about the way things are going etc.

 

[Raven]

Yeah but they are a bunch of bone idle socialists, if they put as much effort into actually working as they did avoiding work they would be quids in.

 

[nath]

Yeah but they are a bunch of bone idle socialists, if they put as much effort into actually working as they did avoiding work they would be quids in.

Perhaps, but having spent a fair bit of time in a few different places in France, I'm starting to think they're on to something.

 

[Embattle]

Well as far as I'm aware, the French public are generally far more politically active than us in the UK. Rallies and marches when they're not happy about the way things are going etc.

Which is all the time.

 

[Bahumat]

I just fucked a woman who kept her burka on. She later went out the bedroom and her mum walks in. I had no clue as she's all burka'd up and she lets me fuck her too! True story .dat

 

[Ctuchik]

It's not a defense, from me atleast. It's just the way of the world, everyone, pleasing parents, going with the family business and so on.

It's not 6th century values, it's just values.

It is 6th century values (or earlier then that).

Religious extremists is super conservatists(sp?) that wouldn't even use the fire or change their undies unless they had to. They read and practice their respective religious texts down to the letter, and accept the values that comes with it as a result.

It's the same thing with every religion that claims "it's how it's always been" when they try to argue why they do and think what they do and think.

Values for most people change, religious values on the other hand can not change because then you wouldn't really be following you're religion. Not in the way it was originally intended any way.

The only thing you can do is to interpret the values differently, but the bottom line is that they are still the same as they have always been.

6th century values.

 

[Ctuchik]

Well as far as I'm aware, the French public are generally far more politically active than us in the UK. Rallies and marches when they're not happy about the way things are going etc.

Not sure if riots have anything to do with politics tho...

 

[Helme]

Riots are pretty much democracy at it's best. It's the only way to get politicians to even consider what the people are saying.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Riots are pretty much democracy at it's best. It's the only way to get politicians to even consider what the people are saying.

Especially since politicians aren't the voice of the people as they should be.

People choose a representitive that has ok values on him/her, when it should be that the politician takes the values of the people.

 

[Scouse]

Not sure if riots have anything to do with politics tho...

Science has shown only violent protest tends to bring about reform of any kind.

They don't often advertise that fact tho.

 

[throdgrain]

What science is that exactly?

 

[old.Tohtori]

What science is that exactly?

The magical science he worships

 

[Scouse]

What science is that exactly?

Read an article in new scientist about 18 months ago and apparently someone had done a review of protests in the western world (maybe a wider net even) and compared the movement of government on the subject in question to the level of violence in the protests.

Turned out that peaceful protest is easily ignored, which TBH is unsurprising.


I've mentioned it a few times in conversations since and some people take huge offence at the mere suggestion that violent protest may be the only effective form of protest. Some people really fucking hate the idea.

I was proper screamed at and abused by one bird and called a fucking idiot for simply suggesting that it may be the case.

I've never been on a protest myself and don't really care about the idea one way or the other. It seems to me that the people who get most pissed off about it are the ones who hold a strong and principled belief that peaceful protest is the only legitimate form of protest.

Any suggestion that they may be wrong normally results in a (pretty weak) rebuttal or ridicule rather than a "oh really? I wonder if that could be true?"

 

[Mabs]

that wouldnt suprise me
purely cos they can ignore it, till they cant, and if buildings are on fire and so forth, they cant ignore it any more
but then it also tends to backfire and you lose public support, so i would guess its a very thin line between "no ones listening" and "too much"

 

[nath]

That's utter bullshit Scouse, peaceful protest works perfectly. Just look at how many people protested the Iraq war and that was really suc... wait. nm .

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Peaceful protests work if the authorities smash the shit out of them, too!

 

[Lamp]

we should bloody well get rid of the "peace camp" in Parliament Sq for the Royal Wedding. Bloody eyesore.