France ban burkas

[Wazzerphuk]

Just ban Muslims tbh

 

[old.user4556]

Agreed.

 

[cHodAX]

Are they banning ninjas ?

Yep, Ninja's are regularly kicked out of my local Morrisons.

 

[ford prefect]

*edit* Oh, and there is NO specific injunction in the Koran demanding women cover their faces; it only talks about dressing "modestly".

You are absolutely right, the Koran doesn't command them, it simply suggests that it will bring them closer to God, will serve to protect them from being annoyed by men. Ayah verse 59 and The Light verse 31 if memory serves.

Just ban Muslims tbh

This is a traditional code of dress, and sure it is becoming less fashionable (for want of a better phrase) among Muslim women, but for those who want to respect their traditions (and this goes back way past Islam, in fact all the way back to the Persians), then that is their business and not really something a Government should be sticking its nose in.

 

[rynnor]

This is a traditional code of dress, and sure it is becoming less fashionable (for want of a better phrase) among Muslim women, but for those who want to respect their traditions (and this goes back way past Islam, in fact all the way back to the Persians), then that is their business and not really something a Government should be sticking its nose in.

The groups who wear it today have not for the most part inherited it as a tradition but have adopted it recently - with agreement or by pressure so there goes your first arguement.

Secondly, it acts as a barrier to full participation in our society and carries overtones of oppression of women - none of which should be tolerated in any right thinking society.

 

[Raven]

Nothing wrong with them dressing like that if they want* to but there are certain times and places that they shouldn't. When driving, in banks etc


*If they want, not if they are forced into it by some dickhead who had been reading too many fairly tales.

 

[nath]

This is a traditional code of dress, and sure it is becoming less fashionable (for want of a better phrase) among Muslim women, but for those who want to respect their traditions (and this goes back way past Islam, in fact all the way back to the Persians), then that is their business and not really something a Government should be sticking its nose in.

Nudists aren't allowed to wander around the streets naked, even though that's their code of dress, so to speak. Generally speaking, our societies don't consider it appropriate to be naked in public. I don't think this situation is a million miles away from that, covering your face in a western society isn't really appropriate either.

 

[Tom]

I just feel sad when I see women walking around wearing silly costumes. That people still believe in stupid shit thought up by ignorant ancestors.

 

[ford prefect]

The groups who wear it today have not for the most part inherited it as a tradition but have adopted it recently - with agreement or by pressure so there goes your first arguement.

Secondly, it acts as a barrier to full participation in our society and carries overtones of oppression of women - none of which should be tolerated in any right thinking society.

Even today, the the Burqa is still traditional dress in western Pakistan and for familes with strong links and traditions to that area, it is still very much part of their culture. Also if people choose to wear it to respect the traditions of Islam in the same way as a Sikhs Turban or a Jews Kippah, that is entirely their business.

As for your second point, exactly, it does limit participation, because once marrie Muslim women find offence in unwanted attention and to be close to god they believe in being humble and being part of a civilized society, which in part is where the tradition of the Burqa comes from.

I don't deny that in some relationships their is opression, but the Burqa doesn't necessarily signify that, nor does it follow that all Muslim men oppress their women.

Nudists aren't allowed to wander around the streets naked, even though that's their code of dress, so to speak. Generally speaking, our societies don't consider it appropriate to be naked in public. I don't think this situation is a million miles away from that, covering your face in a western society isn't really appropriate either.

I don't really understand, What has one got to do with the other?

 

[throdgrain]

You do understand, you're just trying not to ...

 

[Krazeh]

I don't really understand, What has one got to do with the other?

I think his point is that society already deems certain forms of dress (or in the case of nudists undress) to be inappropriate in public and this ban is just an extension of that.

 

[ford prefect]

You do understand, you're just trying not to ...

I think his point is that society already deems certain forms of dress (or in the case of nudists undress) to be inappropriate in public and this ban is just an extension of that.

Actually I genuinely don't understand. Naturism is a lifestyle choice, it is something you choose to do, like playing golf or going to an S&M club. Religion is a cultural system that creates a long lasting spitiual meaning based on various beliefs and value systems. As far as I can see, comparing the Burqa to nudism is like comparing it to a golf sweater. Perhaps Nath comparing two dynamically opposed ideas, one where it is socially unacceptable to wear no clothing and one wear it has apparently become unacceptable to wear too much? If that is the case then I possibly missed it and I don't find the latter unacceptable.

 

[rynnor]

Also if people choose to wear it to respect the traditions of Islam in the same way as a Sikhs Turban

Not really - the Sikhs are not allowed to cut there hair as part of their religion and the turban is just a practical way of coping with that.

The Koran does not say a damned thing about women covering up from head to foot only that they should show modesty. Its a regional thing but its growth today comes from the export of hardliner Islamist beliefs.

That road ends in women being trapped in the house and it being illegal to send your daughters to school as it was in Afghanistan under the taliban.

 

[ford prefect]

Not really - the Sikhs are not allowed to cut there hair as part of their religion and the turban is just a practical way of coping with that.

The Koran does not say a damned thing about women covering up from head to foot only that they should show modesty. Its a regional thing but its growth today comes from the export of hardliner Islamist beliefs.

That road ends in women being trapped in the house and it being illegal to send your daughters to school as it was in Afghanistan under the taliban.

"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings to cover their bosoms, and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule, or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

Yes, it does.

 

[MYstIC G]

Really? So you keep your bosoms in your shoes do you?

 

[Raven]

"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings to cover their bosoms, and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule, or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

Yes, it does.

What if they are ugly?

 

[Wij]

That just reads like 'cover your tits' to me.

 

[DaGaffer]

Actually I genuinely don't understand. Naturism is a lifestyle choice, it is something you choose to do, like playing golf or going to an S&M club.

Yes.

Religion is a cultural system that creates a long lasting spitiual meaning based on various beliefs and value systems. As far as I can see, comparing the Burqa to nudism is like comparing it to a golf sweater. Perhaps Nath comparing two dynamically opposed ideas, one where it is socially unacceptable to wear no clothing and one wear it has apparently become unacceptable to wear too much? If that is the case then I possibly missed it and I don't find the latter unacceptable.

No.

They're both lifestyle choices. Just because muslims get some spiritual meaning or whatever, doesn't make it any less of a lifestyle choice.

 

[nath]

They're both lifestyle choices. Just because muslims get some spiritual meaning or whatever, doesn't make it any less of a lifestyle choice.

Indeed. I don't see why someone's love for golf should be considered less important than someone's love for religion. You seem to focus on the reasons behind the dress code, I don't see why that should be relevant. Appropriate attire is what's being discussed. We don't consider nudism to be appropriate for display in public, and in our society the full burqah isn't really appropriate either. I don't see why it's OK because they choose to be involved in a religion, but not because nudists choose that.

 

[ford prefect]

That makes a lot of assumptions about the way people view their religion, especially in the case of Islam. You are making the assumpion that religous people view their faith as a choice, which for most simply isn't the case. As many atheists point out, you can't choose to believe in god, you have to be convinced that there is one in the first place. Although beliefes can change, I personally don't think you can choose to believe or disbelieve something, you can only choose how those beliefes shape your actions.

 

[Krazeh]

You are making the assumpion that religous people view their faith as a choice, which for most simply isn't the case.

The fact they may not view it as a choice doesn't mean that it isn't one.

As many atheists point out, you can't choose to believe in god, you have to be convinced that there is one in the first place. Although beliefes can change, I personally don't think you can choose to believe or disbelieve something, you can only choose how those beliefes shape your actions.

What? Where have people said you can't choose to believe in god? Of course you can, that's how people end up believing in them. You don't start life with a belief in god, that comes later and is a choice people make. Even in cases where religion is accepted because you're too young to know any better/different it's still a choice.

 

[DaGaffer]

That makes a lot of assumptions about the way people view their religion, especially in the case of Islam. You are making the assumpion that religous people view their faith as a choice, which for most simply isn't the case. As many atheists point out, you can't choose to believe in god, you have to be convinced that there is one in the first place. Although beliefes can change, I personally don't think you can choose to believe or disbelieve something, you can only choose how those beliefes shape your actions.

No, you can choose. Its just that most people are too lazy or uncritical to bother. It doesn't matter whether whether people view their faith as a choice or not, its a learned behaviour and therefore, a choice. A hard choice perhaps, but nevertheless. (And by the by, atheists don't quite phrase it the way you've described above; most atheists come from a position of being indoctrinated in the religion they're born into, and breaking free of it. Religion isn't innate, its imposed, usually when you're too young to have an opinion one way or another).

 

[nath]

That makes a lot of assumptions about the way people view their religion, especially in the case of Islam. You are making the assumpion that religous people view their faith as a choice, which for most simply isn't the case. As many atheists point out, you can't choose to believe in god, you have to be convinced that there is one in the first place. Although beliefes can change, I personally don't think you can choose to believe or disbelieve something, you can only choose how those beliefes shape your actions.

My point is that the fact that it's religion is irrelevant. We're talking dress code, and as far as I'm concerned that's the only issue. I didn't mean to get in to the debate as to whether it's a choice or not.

 

[ford prefect]

Can you choose to believe in alternative medicine, UFO's, Nessy, The Yeti, Psychic Phenomenon or Bigfoot? Or more rationally can you choose who you fall in love with or can you choose your taste in music or art? Religion is very much the same.

 

[MYstIC G]

That makes a lot of assumptions about the way people view their religion, especially in the case of Islam. You are making the assumpion that religous people view their faith as a choice, which for most simply isn't the case. As many atheists point out, you can't choose to believe in god, you have to be convinced that there is one in the first place. Although beliefes can change, I personally don't think you can choose to believe or disbelieve something, you can only choose how those beliefes shape your actions.

By your own hand then you fail because it doesn't say anything about head to foot so people choosing to cover themselves entirely != says so in religious text.

 

[ford prefect]

My point is that the fact that it's religion is irrelevant. We're talking dress code, and as far as I'm concerned that's the only issue. I didn't mean to get in to the debate as to whether it's a choice or not.

I apologise, I suppose I have digressed a little. I don't see why a government should have the ability to tell anyone how they can or cannot dress, and yes, that includes naturists too. It is a simple matter of freedom.

 

[DaGaffer]

Can you choose to believe in alternative medicine, UFO's, Nessy, The Yeti, Psychic Phenomenon or Bigfoot? Or more rationally can you choose who you fall in love with or can you choose your taste in music or art? Religion is very much the same.

No, religion is definitely in the first category. It just has a bigger PR machine

 

[MYstIC G]

I apologise, I suppose I have digressed a little. I don't see why a government should have the ability to tell anyone how they can or cannot dress, and yes, that includes naturists too. It is a simple matter of freedom.

Complete freedom leads to anarchy, look how stupid people become when the news says "Oh, it'll be very very cold outside next week but don't panic"

 

[rynnor]

"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings to cover their bosoms, and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule, or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

Yes, it does.

No it doesnt - you have made the classic mistake of interpreting the commentaries as part of the Koran - its not - the Koran just says they should be modest - end of.

Thats why its not part of Islam to require a woman to wear full body coverings - its just a local cultural thing.

 

[ford prefect]

By your own hand then you fail because it doesn't say anything about head to foot so people choosing to cover themselves entirely != says so in religious text.

"Oh Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veil) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

It was actually Rynnor who mentioned head to foot, if he specifically meant then I stand corrected, the phrase "Head to Foot" is indeed not specifically mentioned, but the above is near as matters is it not?