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[Ch3tan]

White carbs are the devil, stay the hell away from them, stick only to brown (high fiber) carbs. Porridge, brown rice / pasta, pulses and wholemeal breads - learn to love them. Get wholemeal pita bread, they taste great (I cant stand brown bread) and get you through that bread craving.

This is correct for someone like you who is cutting down, or someone like teedles who simply wants to loose weight. Wazz is a classic ectomorph though and low GI carbs will keep him full longer, restricting his calorie intake. He'll never manage 3000 calories with brown carbs. Until his body is conditioned to eating lots he is fine with high GI carbs. With his ectomorph body it won't really make a difference to his body fat anway.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

The fact that you're even trying to discuss this in terms of what a car does really makes me think you're not understanding the whole problem at hand. But anyway, please enlighten me as to why the car rocks back and forth and why that has anything to do with the movement of a plane being powered by jet engines or propellors, not the wheels.

You really can't get past this, can you? Your problem is that you think you're too smart to actually have to think about it. The truth is a good percentage of people can never grasp the concept so don't feel bad. -although, I must admit, as highly as you all think over yourselves, I thought you might do better.

 

[Krazeh]

You really can't get past this, can you? Your problem is that you think you're too smart to actually have to think about it. The truth is a good percentage of people can never grasp the concept so don't feel bad. -although, I must admit, as highly as you all think over yourselves, I thought you might do better.

No, I have thought about it and have realised that what the unpowered wheels on a plane do have got nothing to do with whether or not the plane moves. You however seem to be stuck on thinking about them in the same way as you consider a wheel connected a car's drivetrain.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

No, I have thought about it and have realised that what the unpowered wheels on a plane do have got nothing to do with whether or not the plane moves. You however seem to be stuck on thinking about them in the same way as you consider a wheel connected a car's drivetrain.

Please point out where I said anything even remotely like that.

 

[Krazeh]

Please point out where I said anything even remotely like that.

The fact that you seem unable to grasp that what a freespinning wheel gets upto has no consequence on what it's connected to and keep talking about scenarios in which the wheel would need to be connected to the actual drive train has given the impression that you are stuck on plane wheels operating in the same way as car wheels. Have I got the wrong impression and you do actually realise that a plane's wheels are freespinning and thus transfer none of their energy to the plane or prevent the plane body from doing anything?

 

[FWNuke]

Instead of a propeller, picture someone holding a chain attached to the nose of the plane (someone strong).

Start the conveyor and tell the guy to pull the plane forward as the conveyor speeds up . He will be able to pull the plane with the same effort he would use if the conveyor was still, to a point. The prop equals he chain.

There should be an increase in friction as the conveyor speeds up. There should be more resistance to forward motion due to the increased friction (resistance). After all, the tires will begin to heat up and eventually burn do to the friction.

If the conveyor got up to a million miles an hour, there would be considerable resistance, don't you think?

 

[Grits]

Well he is a politician, who is also making a killing on green tech investments co-incidentally

I think recent research may be explaining a few things that never made sense.

In the infamous Mann et al. 'Hockey Stick' graph the medieval warm period and other warm and cold periods in the last thousand years were missed out - this was in part due to the lack of evidence for them globally yet there was a lot of evidence for them in northern europe.

It now seems likely that small variations in solar output can have a dis-proportionate effect on the weather systems in the Northern Hemisphere - this would explain periods like the 'Little Ice Age' which co-incided with the Maunder Minimum - a period of prolonged exceptionally low solar activity.

Most worrying on that note is the current Solar cycle 24 - there are indications that it will be an exceptionally weak cycle and if Livingston & Penn are correct we could be looking at a Maunder style 'Grand Minima'.

If that happened we really could be in trouble and not in a hundred years plus.

Some estimates say average temperature dropped by 7 degrees Celsius in a decade at the start of the Maunder minimum - that would be a disaster.

This is an excellent analysis and I agree on the solar aspect. However, as with the arguments for CO2 causing warming, I think the massive size and complexity of the climate system make it unlikely any one factor could push the system very far. I tend to lean towards multiple inputs occurring at the correct time causing significant shifts. I would say solar output is probably the primary driver and is the most likely to have a large impact by itself.

 

[Krazeh]

There should be an increase in friction as the conveyor speeds up. There should be more resistance to forward motion due to the increased friction (resistance). After all, the tires will begin to heat up and eventually burn do to the friction.

If the conveyor got up to a million miles an hour, there would be considerable resistance, don't you think?

The friction in the wheel bearings can be disregarded once you get them rolling, it's only really when they get so hot that they seize or fail completely that there'll be any real increase in friction. Friction doesn't increase with speed, it's for all intents and purposes a constant value.

 

[ramathorn]

This is correct for someone like you who is cutting down, or someone like teedles who simply wants to loose weight. Wazz is a classic ectomorph though and low GI carbs will keep him full longer, restricting his calorie intake. He'll never manage 3000 calories with brown carbs. Until his body is conditioned to eating lots he is fine with high GI carbs. With his ectomorph body it won't really make a difference to his body fat anway.

A guy I train with was just over ten stone, a common stick insect, we both operate on the same training and meal plan (i do more cardio though, although I'm pretty much where I want to be now), he's put on nearly 1st (all good weight) and where he could hardly do a chin up before he's banging them out in 15's with 20kg strapped to his legs. Calories are the easiest thing in the world to get (you just need to make sure they are good calories), if you're eating six times a day you will be hitting that with very little effort, if your struggling then just have some extra almonds a day and they will make it up extremely quickly

 

[rynnor]

I tend to lean towards multiple inputs occurring at the correct time causing significant shifts. I would say solar output is probably the primary driver and is the most likely to have a large impact by itself.

I actually think the warmists are right about the mechanism of CO2 I just dis-agree on what proportion of warming was down to CO2.

I think they were mistaken in putting all warming down to CO2 - this has palpably been proven wrong when CO2 increased on schedule but the warming dropped off.

If they are lucky it may be responsible for 10% of the warming that was experienced - cycles like el nino/la nina and Solar variability are good candidates for the rest.

 

[Ch3tan]

A guy I train with was just over ten stone, a common stick insect, we both operate on the same training and meal plan (i do more cardio though, although I'm pretty much where I want to be now), he's put on nearly 1st (all good weight) and where he could hardly do a chin up before he's banging them out in 15's with 20kg strapped to his legs. Calories are the easiest thing in the world to get (you just need to make sure they are good calories), if you're eating six times a day you will be hitting that with very little effort, if your struggling then just have some extra almonds a day and they will make it up extremely quickly

You are ignoring the point that low gi carbs take longer to burn than high gi carbs, which is essential when you are trying to condition your body to want more food. 10 stone's is not a stick insect btw, unless he is very tall, it also depends on his body type and metaboism. afaik Wazz is 5'10" and around 9 stone - thats a stick insect!

 

[FWNuke]

The friction in the wheel bearings is negligible once you get them rolling, it's only really when they get so hot that they seize or fail completely that there'll be any real increase in friction. Friction doesn't increase with speed, it's for all intents and purposes a constant value.

The friction does increase though, that's why the bearing and the tires get hot when the speed is too much. The tires have friction to the ground. At a certain point, the tires will burn up. What do you think causes the heat to burn the tires?

As the tires get hotter, rolling resistance increases.

 

[Krazeh]

The friction does increase though, that's why the bearing and the tires get hot when the speed is too much. The tires have friction to the ground. At a certain point, the tires will burn up. What do you think causes the heat to burn the tires?

As the tires get hotter, rolling resistance increases.

I never said that it didn't increase at all, what I said was the increases are of no consequence until the point that heat causes the bearings to seize up or self destruct in some fashion. Any increases caused by heat in the bearings, assuming they are still intact and don't seized, will not be anywhere near large enough to cause the actions of the wheels to affect the forward motion of hte plane.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

The fact that you seem unable to grasp that what a freespinning wheel gets upto has no consequence on what it's connected to and keep talking about scenarios in which the wheel would need to be connected to the actual drive train has given the impression that you are stuck on plane wheels operating in the same way as car wheels. Have I got the wrong impression and you do actually realise that a plane's wheels are freespinning and thus transfer none of their energy to the plane or prevent the plane body from doing anything?

Please point out where I said anything about an engine being attached to a drivetrain.

 

[FWNuke]

I never said that it didn't increase at all, what I said was the increases are of no consequence until the point that heat causes the bearings to seize up or self destruct in some fashion. Any increases caused by heat in the bearings, assuming they are still intact and don't seized, will not be anywhere near large enough to cause the actions of the wheels to affect the forward motion of hte plane.

You said that friction is constant regardless of speed. And you seem stuck on the bearings for some reason. I am talking about rolling resistance. For the sake of the argument, pretend the bearings have zero resistance.

 

[ramathorn]

You are ignoring the point that low gi carbs take longer to burn than high gi carbs, which is essential when you are trying to condition your body to want more food. 10 stone's is not a stick insect btw, unless he is very tall, it also depends on his body type and metaboism. afaik Wazz is 5'10" and around 9 stone - thats a stick insect!

I completely understand the principles and the differences between the two, and if he's training in anyway the correct manner he'll need that slow release energy. 3000 cals is a breeze to hit, there is no reason to eat unhealthy foods to get it, start as you mean to go on. I can provide the photo's to back up the theory by the way

 

[Krazeh]

Please point out where I said anything about an engine being attached to a drivetrain.

All the scenarios you have proposed for why the wheels would prevent an airplane taking off have required the wheels to be attached to a drivetrain.

 

[Ch3tan]

I completely understand the principles and the differences between the two, and if he's training in anyway the correct manner he'll need that slow release energy. 3000 cals is a breeze to hit, there is no reason to eat unhealthy foods to get it, start as you mean to go on. I can provide the photo's to back up the theory by the way

Did you read wazz's post about his current eating habits? 3k calories is a massive step up for him, on low gi carbs he will feel incredibly bloated. I've done the same as him, low GI carbs need to be switched to slowly, when he's happy being able to eat regularly.

 

[Krazeh]

You said that friction is constant regardless of speed. And you seem stuck on the bearings for some reason. I am talking about rolling resistance. For the sake of the argument, pretend the bearings have zero resistance.

If the bearings have zero resistance (by this I'm assuming you mean zero friction) then the wheels have even less consequence for the forward motion of the plane. The sole purpose of the wheels is to isolate the plane body and the ground from each other. As long as they are turning on their axles then they are doing their job and the plane body and ground/treadmill/conveyor belt etc can be treated as two completely independent systems.

Answer me this: If you have a plane whose wheel bearings have zero friction what happens when you turn the treadmill on while it's at a standstill with it's engines off? How is the rotational motion of the wheels being transferred to the plane?

 

[ramathorn]

Did you read wazz's post about his current eating habits? 3k calories is a massive step up for him, on low gi carbs he will feel incredibly bloated. I've done the same as him, low GI carbs need to be switched to slowly, when he's happy being able to eat regularly.

i might have missed some of what he said in fairness, this isnt exactly a short thread no worries i guess whatever works for him, just trying to offer a hand

 

[Ch3tan]

Your advice is good, but as an ectomorph myself I know how hard it is. To eat clean you have to get to a stage where your body wants to calories when you need to eat.

 

[FWNuke]

If the bearings have zero resistance (by this I'm assuming you mean zero friction) then the wheels have even less consequence for the forward motion of the plane. The sole purpose of the wheels is to isolate the plane body and the ground from each other. As long as they are turning on their axles then they are doing their job and the plane body and ground/treadmill/conveyor belt etc can be treated as two completely independent systems.

Answer me this: If you have a plane whose wheel bearings have zero friction what happens when you turn the treadmill on while it's at a standstill with it's engines off? How is the rotational motion of the wheels being transferred to the plane?

It the plane being held in place by something, like a chain?

The wheels are attached to the plane and the wheels resist rolling on the conveyor.

In a car during slower, stop and go travel, the rolling resistance of the tires to the ground alone is responsible for about 15% of the total drag on the car. At highway cruising speeds, the rolling resistance can be up to 25% of the total drag (resistance) on the car.

What you are not getting is that the tires resist rolling. The tires are on wheels which are attached to the plane. The resistance is transferred to the plane, regardless of whether or not it's on a treadmill.

 

[FWNuke]

Thanks, Pat. Go ahead and listen to my old band on my youtube channel too.

 

[Krazeh]

It the plane being held in place by something, like a chain?

No, just a plane standing on a treadmill with zero friction wheel bearings on it's axles.

The wheels are attached to the plane and the wheels resist rolling on the conveyor.

In a car during slower, stop and go travel, the rolling resistance of the tires to the ground alone is responsible for about 15% of the total drag on the car. At highway cruising speeds, the rolling resistance can be up to 25% of the total drag (resistance) on the car.

What you are not getting is that the tires resist rolling. The tires are on wheels which are attached to the plane. The resistance is transferred to the plane, regardless of whether or not it's on a treadmill.

How is that resistance transferred to the plane? Especially in a case where the bearings connecting the wheel to the axle are frictionless?

 

[FWNuke]

No, just a plane standing on a treadmill with zero friction wheel bearings on it's axles.



How is that resistance transferred to the plane? Especially in a case where the bearings connecting the wheel to the axle are frictionless?

Forget about the bearings....they don't have anything to do with rolling friction.

If the plane was not secure to something off of the treadmill, the plane would just go backwards on the treadmill and the tires would barely move.

Connect a rubber band to front of the plane and secure it to the ground so the plane will not move when the conveyor starts. When the conveyor starts, the rubber band will stretch. If you speed up the conveyor, the rolling friction increases and the rubber will stretch more. The ONLY force causing the rubber band to stretch is the resistance of the tire's surface (and sidewalls) to the conveyor surface.

 

[Ch3tan]

LOL, this is great, any time the yanks have to admit they are wrong about the plane, they change the conditions. Soon we'll be talking about micheal jackson on a elevator.

 

[FWNuke]

LOL, this is great, any time the yanks have to admit they are wrong about the plane, they change the conditions. Soon we'll be talking about micheal jackson on a elevator.

where am I wrong about the plane? Point it out. Where did I change conditions?

I am talking about rolling friction, not about the plane taking off.

 

[Krazeh]

Forget about the bearings....they don't have anything to do with rolling friction.

No but they have everything to do with the transferrence of any force from teh wheels to the rest of the plane.

If the plane was not secure to something off of the treadmill, the plane would just go backwards on the treadmill and the tires would barley move.

Only because of the friction within the wheel bearings. In a system where the wheel bearings have zero friction the wheels would begin spinning but the plane would remain in the same spot. In order for the plane to move backwards there needs to be a transfer of force from the wheels to the plane, this cannot happen where hte only connection point between the wheel and the plane, i.e., the wheel bearings have no friction. And in cases where the wheel bearings do have friction the plane will only move backwards until a forward force equal to the level of friction in the bearings is applied.

Connect a rubber band to front of the plane and secure it to the ground so the plane will not move when the conveyor starts. When the conveyor starts, the rubber band will stretch. If you speed up the conveyor, the rolling friction increases and the rubber will stretch more. The ONLY force causing the rubber band to stretch is the resistance of the tire's surface (and sidewalls) to the conveyor surface.

The rubber band will stretch until the forward force it's applying on the plane equals the friction in the wheel bearings, that is what is transferring the forces acting on the wheel to the plane and causing it to move backwards. It's also the case that once the rubber band or engines or whatever it is you are using to propel the plane forward reaches a sufficient level to overcome the friction in the wheel bearings you will not need to increase the force it applies as the speed of the treadmill increases, well not until you get to stupidly unrealistic scenarios.

Please answer me this, how are the wheels connected to the plane? What causes any forces acting on them to be transferred to the plane?

 

[Tom]

Fuck me, I_am_Glen is back.

 

[Krazeh]

LOL, this is great, any time the yanks have to admit they are wrong about the plane, they change the conditions. Soon we'll be talking about micheal jackson on a elevator.

To his credit FWNuke does appear to be open to a proper discussion and will hopefully be able to see where he's getting it wrong. Son of Sluggish on the other hand is so wrong he doesn't even know why and doesn't seem to have any intention of trying to understand why that is.