*fap fap fap*

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by Jonty
LOL Come come, we shouldn't be nasty to Mac users, they are human beings, after all

Kind Regards

mimes aren't human. they deserve death. tbh

 

[mookie]

i love my PC.
i also love my mac.

on topic though, i fucking want a g5. someone lend me some money?

 

[Jonty]

hehe, it's true that it's more form over function at the moment, but it is only a prototype. As for the manufacturer, I assume it is HP, as you say, who make the actual system; but Microsoft have a fairly high standard in terms of the quality of their own hardware products (even if they don't manufacturer them themselves), so who knows what the finished product will be like?

Kind Regards

 

[PR.]

Analysts are predicting that Apple is on course to be overtaken by Linux as the 2nd most used OS.

Right now its only a matter of time before PC vendors really start shipping attractive units and when Longhorn is released with its hardware accelerated UI there will be little for the Mac to offer

 

[Jonty]

Did anyone spot those monitor specifications Microsoft handed over to Sharp a little while ago? Basically, it was a design specification for a 'Longhorn compliant' LCD monitor, which included support for a phenonemal one billion colour hues, compared to the 'mere' 16.7 million colour hues currently in use. Quite amazing.

As for Linux overtaking the Mac, I could understand that, especially given Linux's popularity amongst the professional and enthuisast community. Nevertheless, I don't think Apple is ready to roll and over and die just yet

Kind Regards

Jonty

P.S. That's not to say you'll need a monitor like this Sharp one to run Longhorn, merely that you'll have that bit extra fun if you do have one

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Jonty
As for Linux overtaking the Mac, I could understand that, especially given Linux's popularity amongst the professional and enthuisast community. Nevertheless, I don't think Apple is ready to roll and over and die just yet

I disagree, Apple OS and hardware are closely tied, and the platform as a whole has been underselling for years, now with a market share of less than helf that of the early 1990's, and they have never achieved double-figure share either in all that time. With more players in the market than ever before there is no way short of a miracle they will ever regain even 1995's level of market share.

Linux has not had a client-friendly GUI to speak of for many years, but now with open source solutions like KDE coming to the fore, combined with better applications (like Opera for example), it is developing into a real Windows competitor capable of running on the same PC hardware platform, and more, especially when the 64-bit market comes to life.

The best thing Apple can do is ditch their backward looking OS and allow Linux, or even Windows, to run on their much more competitive hardware. The big problem is Apple (and Sun too) have never admitted their "holistic platform" strategy cannot compete with open source solutions, either in price or flexibility, the sooner they dump that strategy and concentrate on what they do best (hardware in Apple's case), the better.

 

[Embattle]

A program shortage is likely to cause doubts at first about 64bit computing on PCs, let alone on Macs.

A lot of programs are going to need complete rewriting for 64bit computers because a lot has gone into making them work very well with 32bit processors.

The Apple is sex on a stick but it still only exists in a niche market which is shrinking as the competition has got better over the past few years at design, a key area that Apple's have always surpassed it rivals. Its key rival came when a lot of customers bought the newer fancy PCs, it hasn't really attracted a great deal of new users from the open market.

Loads of people have commented that Apple would do very well to ditch their rather old and dated strategies but I don't think you'll find it happening any time soon.

64bit computing has to come in through the back door, basically processors like the Athlon64 have to get results comparable to 32bit processors when running 32bit apps. This then means you can keep customers happy and slowly, as it will be, make the transition to 64bit apps.

 

[Embattle]

TBH I wouldn't worry about the delay of 10.3 since it seems that Apple suffer from the same paper release syndrome as a few other companies do.

 

[Jonty]

I'm trying to ascertain where these figures come from, but it makes quite an interesting point, which certainly supports the 'gradual introduction' scenario . . .

Apparently, by the beginning of 2004, 20% of all software will be 64bit. But that seems a little generous, I suppose. Like I say, it's hard to know what counts as 64bit software, as obviously the average consumer isn't particularly interested in obscure professional and server applications which could bias the figures.

Kind Regards

 

[Embattle]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10149 - Make sure you read the Soapbox link.

 

[Jonty]

Good link, Embattle To be honest you and a few others have made me sceptical of benchmarks forever more, hehe, and probably rightly so. But it struck me when viewing the PowerMac site that it would be hard to get an accurate, 'apples to apples' comparison between such widely different machines.

For those interested, [H]arc|OCP have a nice editorial on the future of benchmarks in the graphics card industry.

Kind Regards

Edit ~ Those Soapbox Statistics certainly are interesting

Edit 2 ~ It really pains me to read those user comments at the end of that soapbox. Are people so honestly reluctant to see the truth? We all have our preferences, what we like and don't like, but we have to acknowledge other people's points of view, and accept that nothing on this Earth is perfect. Pft!

 

[Embattle]

Tom's Hardware has looked at Benchmarks too http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20030624/index.html

 

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Embattle
Tom's Hardware has looked at Benchmarks too http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20030624/index.html

hehe, I can just imagine myself in one of those 'Fanboy' hats, all green and black with an nVidia logo on the front hehe. Interesting article, though

Kind Regards

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

The point all these sites are missing is that no one with any sense gives a shit how fast it is against Intel based pcs based on synthetic benchmarks. If you already own a mac the only important thing is that it's faster than a G4 and if you don't own a mac the only thing I can see swinging one your way is that it outperforms PCs on certain applications or all the value added stuff you get from owning a mac.

 

[Jonty]

Very true Scooba. Perhaps we can't see the wood for the trees

Kind Regards

 

[Testin da Cable]

to stir some more werdness into the mix, I submit that you'll have to ask yourself what you want to be "64bit" and what you don't. I can imagine a workstation OS's kernel being 64, I can imagine powerhungry apps like photoshop, 3dstudio et al would benefit from the big 6-4. things like your ftp client and whatnot will not benefit in the slightest and only a truely insane c0d0r will go for that shit homez

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Jonty
Very true Scooba. Perhaps we can't see the wood for the trees

Kind Regards

Well not true if you take the example of that bloke from the soapbox.

 

[Jonty]

Well, in practical terms, I think Scooba has a point. If you own a G4, and a G5 performs better, great. If you own a PC, then it's pretty unlikely you're going to switch to a Mac for all your computing needs, and as such you may be more concerned with what application specific improvements there are to be had. But of course this doesn't negate what Apple's PR team has seemingly done in their manipulation of the G5 statistics. Anyway, it makes me chuckle this topic has prompted so much debate. Is it worth it? hehe.

As for TdC's point, I'm curious about that too. I'm looking forward to somebody asking Intel or AMD "So how is the average PC user going to benefit from 64bit technology in their day to day computing tasks?" No doubt they will receive a well constructed piece of PR blurb, but I have to say that all the benefits of 64bit technology I've thus far heard of are quite technical and far removed from day to day computing tasks. Even decisions by Epic to make a 64bit port of Unreal seem to be based around making life easier and more flexible for themselves, rather than providing the end user with huge performance benefits and such.

I'll try and dig out the quote, if I remember, in which there's a rather disparaging remark from John Carmack about the benefits of 64bit technology, in which he basically claims its a buzzword which in reality isn't as great as people may think. That said, once the AMD and Intel PR machines start up, we may begin to understand the benefits of the new technology.

Kind Regards

 

[.Cask]

This is the kind of thread that SWG fans will link to on their forums in a message entitled "Check out these uber-nerds!"

Interesting stuff though

 

[Embattle]

I'm not saying what Scooba said isn't the case, it's just not the case across the board.

They won't benefit at the start, in fact for a number of years until the software bloats to a level that requires 64bit processor This, again is where AMD can benefit from that fact of good 32bit support with 64bit as well, it makes the transition easy if not unnoticeable to the degree that there will be no need to explain the benefits.....plus this method allows wide distribution without the need to continue making dedicated 32bit processors, marketed as the 32bit/64bit processor if required.

 

[Jonty]

I don't know whether this was the quote I was after or not, but it's close enough hehe . . .

How will the next generation of 64bit CPUs affect Doom 3?
64 bit is not going to speed up Doom 3. In fact there may actually be a minor slowdown since the pointer references are all in 32 bit, which will mean a hit to memory bandwidth which is the real gating problem.

Whilst this is quite old in terms of the awareness of 64 bit technology (QuakeCon 2002), it's not exactly doing the new kit any favours.

Kind Regards

 

[Jonty]

Originally posted by .Cask
This is the kind of thread that SWG fans will link to on their forums in a message entitled "Check out these uber-nerds!" Interesting stuff though

hehe, perhaps, but if you're comfortable with who you are then who are they to criticise? That said, I'm apparently only 7% geek, according to a geek test Wilier made me complete (and most of that 7% probably came from taking the test in the first place ).

Kind Regards

 

[Testin da Cable]

benchmarks suck ass anyway

 

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Testin da Cable
benchmarks suck ass anyway

hehe, I believe you yourself said "In the computer industry there are 3 types of lies ... lies, damn lies and benchmarks." That certain seems to be case

Kind Regards

 

[Testin da Cable]

I did indeed say that once. Not a tdc original though, as someone else said it first still, I must have been rather bitter the day I posted that ah well.
if your computer feels fast then it's fast, if it takes a long time to do a small thing then it needs to be faster perhaps. we worry so much about nanometers, gigahertzen and how many bits wide things should be to bump spec tests by a dozen points that I sometimes feel that we're losing sight of what really matters...like kittens, games, sunshine and laughing about mac users

 

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Testin da Cable
like kittens, games, sunshine and laughing about mac users

In that order? You're right, though. We live in a world obsessed by statistics and benchmarks. But the ironic thing is, much of it is completely meaningless "The such such graphics card clearly outperforms it rivals by x frames per second" where x turns out to be such a small number you'd never know the difference. It seems we're kidding ourselves

Kind Regards

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Scooba Da Bass
The point all these sites are missing is that no one with any sense gives a shit how fast it is against Intel based pcs based on synthetic benchmarks. If you already own a mac the only important thing is that it's faster than a G4 and if you don't own a mac the only thing I can see swinging one your way is that it outperforms PCs on certain applications or all the value added stuff you get from owning a mac.

Apple's recent "switch" campaigns are designed to show how superior their product is over a WinTel PC, the "soapbox" link shows that in many cases they go too far and adopt the elitist attitude of many Apple users.

Apple always deliberately avoid direct equivilence, particularly based on price, that fact that "bang for buck" the WinTel platform wins hands down, compare the G5 retailing at least at $2000 for the single-CPU only model (source) which is being compared to the Dell Dimension 8300 retainling at just over $1000 (source) and the Dell Precision 650 retailing at under $1600 (source).

The dual-CPU G5 sells for $3000, you can buy a kick ass PC for that money, probably even a low end Blade !

 

[Testin da Cable]

well, for a fact, you can not get a 64bit workstation that does what the G5 does for that price. I found a sun workstation that is almost in the same ball park at a smidgin over 3k USD but the mac will win a comparison when periphs, software and ease of use come into play. the other big 64bit/unix workstations start weighing in at 7,5k and scale up to ooh...80k US or so

edit: anyway, as cama says, for 3000 dollars you can build a very nice dual xeon workstation with a serious load of bells and whistles. that's what I'd do....but then I do a lot of things I'd not advise others

 

[Testin da Cable]

just to prove what a cunt I am:

PENTIUM XEON 2.6GHZ MPGA FSB400 512KB CACHE BOXED NS (XEON) € 308.47 (x2)
TYAN S2720UGN Thunder i7500 dual XEON DU3SCSI € 594
Sapphire Radeon 9800 Atlantis Pro, 128Mb,DVI,TVout € 429,-
Maxtor Atlas 10K III 36,7GB (10.000rpm, Ultra320) € 242,-
512MB PC2100 DDR SDRAM ECC Registered (Kingston) € 106,- (x2)
LG 1811S 18.1" € 569,-
3Com 3C905B TX-NM PCI 10/100Mbit € 28,-
AOpen DVD 1648 Pro 16/48 (Retail) € 36,-
LG ComboDrive 48x24x48x16 Black GCC-4480RBB € 81,-
Chieftec Dragon Series: DA-01BD (black, no psu) € 90,-
Antec 550Watt TruePower P4 € 137,-
Cherry G83-6104 LPNEU Zwart PS2 € 22,-
Logitech MX500 Optical Mouse USB PS2 € 41,-

total: € 3097.94

I didn't forget anything did I?

 

[Jonty]

Bah! You can get that down my local high-street for a fiver hehe. Nice system, though, even if it does use some rather expensive components

Kind Regards