Excellent Quote.

[old.Jadow]

While this is on a thread that derric linked to, I think I am fully justified in posting this as a new one because it is just so beautiful I salute the author of this, as I have never saluted anyone before.


----------------------------Begin Quote-----------------------------------
Author: Deorwyne
Posts: 194
Registered: Jun 02
Date Posted: 9/11 2:12pm
Subject: RE: I know why Infils are overpowered

Infiltrators are 7th gamewide in total RPs. How exactly is that overpowered? Or are they overpowered because you got ganked by one and rather than admit your lack of skill, would rather hope Mythic doos the work for you?

Both Shadowblades and Nightshades rank higher than Infiltrators in RPs. In fact the top 10 goes like this:

Ranger
Nightshade
Hunter
Minstrel
Shadowblade
Hero
Infiltrator
Scout
Eldritch
Blademaster

Hibernia is just flat out overpowered, as they make up 8 out of the top 15. And all the pissing and moaning by archers is obviously just blown smoke - they make up 2 of the top 3. In fact, of all the assassin classes, Infiltrators are the least successful just like Scouts are the least successful archers. Minstrels are better than both.

The real problem is, that from a Hibernian and Midgard perspective, Infiltrators are one of few Albion classes that can match them in RvR, therefore they need to be nerfed so that there is no competition. From an Albion perspective, Infiltrators are clearly one of the only classes you can play tolerably well in RvR. And since you spent 30 days making a level 50 Paladin that is useless as teets on a boarhog in RvR, you'd rather take us down with you than lobby Mythic to make your class better.

It is all various levels of pettiness perpetrated by the incompetent losers who want Mythic to make up for their inadequacies by bringing everyone down to their level. You're like the kids who don't get invited to the games at the playground so you run sniveling to the teacher - you'd rather no one else have any fun since you can't.

------------------------------end of quote------------------------------

Good stuff ain't it !

Jadow
Level 50 Infiltrator
Saracen Gryphon Knight
Servants of the Lake
"The People's Gimp"

 

[Solid]

It still doesnt explain why Infils were bumped to 2.5 skill points, perhaps o wise one Jadow can answer that?

 

[old.Bubble]

this was because SB's were given more HP's and 2 handed weapons and 2.2 points, NS's were given insta cast spells and 2.2 points

 

[old.Jadow]

Lots of reasons really.

Shadowblade:
a) 2 Handed weapons that they can spec in.
b) Left Axe that they can spec in (Don't even think about saying duel wield is the same, it's so not. Chances of hitting with D/W are considerably less than with LAxe)
c) More Hitpoints
d) More strength
e) Size - don't understimate the ability to be of a small size. Less of a target = harder for our ranged attacker to hit - this obviously only applies to kobolds.

Nightshades:
a) DD's - people under-rate these massively. They're -excellent- for revealing other stealthers.
b) More quick/dex
c) Crits on poison
d) Size even more so (as e) on shadowblades, but obviously only applies to luri's)
e) Much faster weapon speeds.

Basically infs are the 'average' assassin class. Which isn't a good thing. Nightshades are faster than us, but hit less hard while shadowblades are slower than us but hit considerably harder.

Having more spec points tries to make up for these shortcomings and so far has succeeded. I'd say most inf vs sb encounters are 50/50 affairs. Not really had enough encounters with level 50 nightshades to be able to make a statement on that.

Infs have a wider range of targets because of the ability to spec either slash or thrust. Not sure about nightshades on this one, but I know that shadowblades can only spec in slash. Frankly the strength they hit at more than makes up for the fact that they get negatives vs chain and other armour types. Can't say the same about thrust vs leather.

Jadow
Level 50 Infiltrator
Saracen Gryphon Knight
Servants of the Lake
"The People's Gimp"

 

[Blood]

jadow, you are twisting the truth here... you say hunters are #3, well that may be in total rp earned since the servers opened a year ago, since that alot of classes have been changed ALOT, among those are hunters.. (damage cap lowered, bladeturn to all casters, drawspeed increased, epic armor to everyone, see hidden)

if your intention was to make a honest list of the effectivness of classes, i'd expect you to take a list of RP's earned "last week" instead. That leads to an entirely different view (looking at level 50's since that is what we are talking about here, and whatever classes can do at lower levels arent that interesting when discussing level 50 chars)

Nightshade
Infiltrator
Shadowblade
Mentalist
Spiritmaster
Ranger
Enchanter
Runemaster
Champion
Eldritch

 

[old.Noita]

yay Spiritmasters are #5 we are teh Uber1s (tm)... nerf Spiritmasters will be the shout we hear the loudest from Tir naNog to Campaolt when we get pbAEdd, cure mezz, rezz and targetted ae mezz!!

 

[old.Jadow]

1 week is not a good sample. Maybe if we could pull the list from the last 2-3 months i'd be open to discussing that. However, bear in mind that a lot of people that started hunters all cried like babies about See Hidden then deleted and rerolled. This twists your figures massively.

Personally I still believe that "There's lies, damned lies and statistics" however. The fact that hunters remain so high on that list, despite few playing now seems to be reason enough for their having been nerfed a little.

Infiltrators aren't at the top of either list. I don't see why people shout "nerf" simply because it's one of the few alb classes that can survive in RvR solo for longer than five minutes.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Jadow
Infs have a wider range of targets because of the ability to spec either slash or thrust. Not sure about nightshades on this one, but I know that shadowblades can only spec in slash. Frankly the strength they hit at more than makes up for the fact that they get negatives vs chain and other armour types. Can't say the same about thrust vs leather.

NS can spec blades or piercers, so yes they get a choice of damage types like infs.

 

[Blood]

Originally posted by old.Jadow
1 week is not a good sample. Maybe if we could pull the list from the last 2-3 months i'd be open to discussing that. However, bear in mind that a lot of people that started hunters all cried like babies about See Hidden then deleted and rerolled. This twists your figures massively.

level 50 hunters are not deleted, they are parked near a varm fireplace in Jordheim, hanging up the bow doesnt mean you delete them.

Personally I still believe that "There's lies, damned lies and statistics" however. The fact that hunters remain so high on that list, despite few playing now seems to be reason enough for their having been nerfed a little.

LOOOOOOOL!! muhaaaaa.. silly Jadow.. A LITTLE??????

Infiltrators aren't at the top of either list. I don't see why people shout "nerf" simply because it's one of the few alb classes that can survive in RvR solo for longer than five minutes.

you are right.. all assasins are over powered in the sence that they can pick their fights.. everyone else are mincemeat. From what i hear dragonfang is being nerfed, so that should solve the biggest problem.. about infils being tank killers

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by Dannyn

NS can spec blades or piercers, so yes they get a choice of damage types like infs.

Bleh... this is just as crummy as claiming that NS' can spellcast.

Show me one Lurikeen or Elf NS who has specced in blades... they are not the strongest chars to begin with.

 

[old.Jadow]

Yes. A little. Hunters are just screaming like girls because they can't rip through entire armies at a time like they used to. THAT was overpowered. I remember when Thing killed about 5 equal con albs who were running towards him one time. 4 with bow then finished the last off with a spear. Tell me that didn't need nerfing. No infiltrator on the -planet- could accomplish anything like that feat.

As far as infiltrators killing tanks? Well frankly those days are kinda gone for the most part. We can still do it, but it usually doesn't involve dragonfang. More likely we use vanish to double PA or we have to kite the tank. Remember all sensible tanks have IP - that's leaves us trying to kill someone with around 3-4 k hit points. I hit for about 120 with a normal style attack. Maybe.. 4-500 on the PA, plus 200ish on the CD. leave me with loads left to take out and although I evade a lot and have epic armour, tanks can often wipe me if they get a few decent hits in. I need to hit a tank about 30 times to finish it off - err hello Mr Endurance where did you go!? Most tanks need to hit me about 5 times to kill me.

Also, Dragonfang itself isn't nerfed, it's the possibility to resist stuns that everyone gets given. So all stun is "nerfed" well not true, just that more resists will occur. Not worth getting upset over really as it means that slam is less effective also which could safe my life a bit

 

[Myshra]

Originally posted by sickofit...


Bleh... this is just as crummy as claiming that NS' can spellcast.

Show me one Lurikeen or Elf NS who has specced in blades... they are not the strongest chars to begin with.

luona the NS i met in thidranki a while ago had 2 sickles, which are slash surely?


ALSO:

check out this thread for a real good laugh.

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=36420375&replies=37

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

...

You want me to answer that?

Apologies, mea culpa, so sorry... you saw one NS with blade weapons! Jolly goodness!

Lets say 95% (or even more) of NS' use pierce. That's a fact.
Now continue nitpicking, please.

 

[Jenna.]

"infiltrators are assasins, and assasins are supposed to kill every other class". Heard in #daoc.prydwen by highlvl infil

Nah, infiltrators doesnt need a nerf, its just great that they can kill warriors etc easily, I think they need a boost so they can tank 3 warriors at the same time!

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Wow... that sarcasm made my screen blur for a moment...

Infiltrators are supposed to kill casters and other assassin classes... read that somewhere a long time ago...

 

[Blixt Gordon]

This is just lol beyond lol.

 

[Myshra]

Originally posted by sickofit...
...

You want me to answer that?

Apologies, mea culpa, so sorry...

thats quite ok on a better side, she was very very good with them, and killed quite a bit! if more would give it a chance, but alas being good at your class probably proved this story, but it can be done, just needs a little believing.

theres luri champs arn't there?

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Now that was selective quoting...

Well, if there is a blade specced NS out there - my respect.
I despise cookie cutter characters... might as well buy a l50 account somewhere....

 

[Artemls]

Blixt alert!!!

 

[trigali]

Originally posted by old.Jadow
1 week is not a good sample. Maybe if we could pull the list from the last 2-3 months i'd be open to discussing that. However, bear in mind that a lot of people that started hunters all cried like babies about See Hidden then deleted and rerolled. This twists your figures massively.

Personally I still believe that "There's lies, damned lies and statistics" however. The fact that hunters remain so high on that list, despite few playing now seems to be reason enough for their having been nerfed a little.

Infiltrators aren't at the top of either list. I don't see why people shout "nerf" simply because it's one of the few alb classes that can survive in RvR solo for longer than five minutes.

The only way to make a significant statistic would be to divide the number or RPs per class by the number of people playing that class in each realm, and then also compensate somehow with level discrepancies within those players: the BGs are overpacked with lvl 20-24 assassins who obviously would not influence the RP total enough to be significant. The amount of time played for each character is also significant (although maybe that would even out accross the realm)

Failing that, any statistic you come up with would be meaningless, because flawed, and you will always find someone to come up with a different statistic which shows what THEY want and claim that theirs is MORE TRUE than yours. whereas both would be wrong anyway.

For christ sake people, just go and play the game !

 

[Derric]

Originally posted by Jenna.
"infiltrators are assasins, and assasins are supposed to kill every other class". Heard in #daoc.prydwen by highlvl infil

It was me saying (something) like that.What I mean is that an assassin class should be able to kill any other class.(that goes for Nightshades and Shadowblades as well).
After all..an assassins job is to kill a guy isn't it?
I think there would be a good idea to make all assassin classes more or less the same.

Here's some answers to some arguments I've heard in that very same channel btw:

"hey you can solo..that's lame!nerf!" - Yea I can solo but for "RP farming" grouping is a lot better since there can be quite some time before you actually get to attack someone.

"hey you can kill a warrior/thane..that's not realistic!" - I think a lot of mighty warriors have died during the centurys thanks to some patient assassins...and hey..realistic?there's a million of unrealistic things in daoc

"pfft..you can pick your fights..nerf!" - Yea I can pick my fights when I solo..You can do it with your group..ffs after 50 lvls begging for a group it kinda feels good to be able to do something by yourself..I see it as a reward for putting up with exping

I'd also like to say that a tank that gets killed by an infil now with epic armors/purge/IP really deserves to die
Only thing I can agree with being overpowered is Dragonfang..9 sec stun..it's a lvl 50 style but still..hmm..

 

[old.Mitsu]

It's not the class and spec - it's the player

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by old.Blood|Prydwen
[Byou are right.. all assasins are over powered in the sence that they can pick their fights.. everyone else are mincemeat. From what i hear dragonfang is being nerfed, so that should solve the biggest problem.. about infils being tank killers [/B]

^ they given archers nearsight which kinda stops assasins picking all their fights (also aoes at milegate doors piss me orf), all though I agree its on too long a timer to be that effective, it should be on a smaller timer say 7 mins but not at clipping range, enough distance to get a shot of before inf attacked a caster you were running around with say.

Originally posted by sickofit
Bleh... this is just as crummy as claiming that NS' can spellcast.
[/B]

aye nightshade dds cant hit for pap, but they are nice to unstealth, and keep stealthers unstealthed when they run. A small str buff might be nice for luris to help with damage in their spellline perhaps.

 

[old.Revz]

I don't see how nerfing the one remaining good class of a realm is going to help things. Skalds have been overpowered for much longer and going by the PvP server Enchanters are a bigger problem at the moment. Surely it is preferable to help out those classes that need it (I'm sure we can each name at least a few in our realm that really need help) than breaking classes people enjoy?

 

[trigali]

I don't like the nerfing either, generally speaking.

One thing it does (maybe) allow though is: if we don't hit as well against one another as we used to, then maybe the fights last longer.

A bit lame...

 

[Jenna.]

Originally posted by Derric


It was me saying (something) like that.What I mean is that an assassin class should be able to kill any other class.(that goes for Nightshades and Shadowblades as well).
After all..an assassins job is to kill a guy isn't it?
I think there would be a good idea to make all assassin classes more or less the same.

Yes, and warriors are meant for making cookies, and hunters should just be able to kill rabbits. Why would anyone play any other class than assasin if they could kill everyone in the game?
Its not like you can kill an assasin easily either, since they are almost impossible to find if you're not a archer and are lucky each 30 min.

"pfft..you can pick your fights..nerf!" - Yea I can pick my fights when I solo..You can do it with your group..ffs after 50 lvls begging for a group it kinda feels good to be able to do something by yourself..I see it as a reward for putting up with exping

Exactly how can we pick fights just cause were in a group?
Sure we can kill more enemies at the same time, but that doesnt give us the ability to pick the fight.

 

[klavrynd]

What I mean is that an assassin class should be able to kill any other class

<imagines emain with 100% stealthers>

the torcan uncovers you
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage
you are hit for 5xx damage

 

[Derric]

How to pick a fight in a group?Run away?Hide?Attack when the odds are better?
We've done it plenty of times...it works.


And you still get me wrong..when I say that an assassin should be able to kill any class I don't mean that assassins should be the only class able to do that.IMO any class should be able to do so.
It's just that I've heard ppl say that assassins should kill casters only and that's just plain silly.

Deep down I think you just want me to give you a nice comfy hug Jenna

 

[Solid]

Derric its simply cos Infs CAN kill pure melee classes and SB and NS wouldnt even beging to contemplate it knowing they would get their arses royally handed to em.

Hell you guys dont even need to try hard to kill tanks, you can kill em without PA god dammit, and if fights not going well, a simple sprint, range to stealth and poof ur gone.

Your option is:
"I can fight, I will attack, I am winning I will kill"
OR: " I can fight, I will attack, I am losing, I will escape alive"
OR "I cant fight atm, I wont attack, I shall stay hidden and stay alive"

Tanks option is (vs infil):

"I see nothing, I seem safe, I am being attacked, I am losing, I will die"
OR: "I see nothing, I seem safe, I am being attacked, I am winning, doh, he ran away, double doh he came back and killed me with a 2nd PA"

The only thing that can sway these fights in either direction is the fastest of reflexes for tanks with SLAM, OR an IP and Purge for eitehr player.

Realm Abilities SHOULD NOT govern a classes viability in RvR, so excluding these, I still believe Infs to be overpowered.

 

[klavrynd]

fix the restealth timer!

on second thought, fix quite some timers

when they inserted the chaincc timer they started the timer from the moment the spell resolves, allowing you to get cc'ed just a few seconds after the effect wears off instead of after the spell has worn off. with spells on diff timers and cc durations going far above the 1 minute immumity timer, this was a cookie thrown to cc targets (which are mainly tanks) and how the swallowed it

to get back on topic, thé most annoying tank-killer tactic imho is kiting, where you can't hit the assasin (snare poison lets him/her run away), get eaten from the inside by dot poisons and high chances of a second high damage style (bs,pa,...) shortly after.
if you do have the luck of snare poison not sticking the infil will just run away and stealth again, leaving you the vulnerable target you were. restealth timers should be set to a fixed timer (base timer) which is altered by the vicinity of enemies.


ps : sb's have damage penalties both on slash and plate whereas infils can use dexbased (!) thrusters which have a damage bonus to chain (which all midgard's heavy tanks wear)