Rant Evolution vs Creationism

[DaGaffer]

Indeed.I'd love to see one of them explain how, for instance, the light from the Andromeda Galaxy, which is 31 million light years away, has made it to earth inside of 6,000 years. Going by their "theory" it shouldn't reach the earth for another 30,994,000 years yet.

That's like the dinosaur bones; a test of faith dontcha know. Which, when I hear that from a creationist, I find even more disturbing than the belief in creationism itself. Think about it, Creationists are saying God did this stuff to test us, and they're OK with that. They're OK with their chosen diety fucking with them on a massive scale! I just don't get it. Even if I did believe in God, shit that like would certainly make think twice about worshipping him! Fortunately I don't have to worry about that.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Atheism doesn't have a *purpose*. Atheism is not a belief system, it's not a way of thinking it's just the lack of theological belief. There's a common attitude that puts atheism on a par with religion as just another belief about how the world works. I can't help but think this is religious folk trying to drag atheism down to their level, to make it seem like they're just different viewpoints.

Then i have to ask why atheists get so riled up about religion, try to convert you to "leave wicked religion"(not direct words, usually just calling it stupid, dumb, insane, sheep-like, moronic...list goes on), believe that there's nothing to believe( it IS a belief as much as matter and anti-matter are polar opposites(geeks stay out)).

As i said most atheists i've met are worse then religious people, and on these forums even, in converting(by insulting and demeaning) and by bringing in examples that just take the piss out of any belief sstem and as a direct effect, the person.

Atheists don't go door to door, they use bully tactics like in pre-school. "Like this or you stoopid".

Just to take a defensive stance for a moment

 

[DaGaffer]

Then i have to ask why atheists get so riled up about religion, try to convert you to "leave wicked religion"(not direct words, usually just calling it stupid, dumb, insane, sheep-like, moronic...list goes on), believe that there's nothing to believe( it IS a belief as much as matter and anti-matter are polar opposites(geeks stay out)).

As i said most atheists i've met are worse then religious people, and on these forums even, in converting(by insulting and demeaning) and by bringing in examples that just take the piss out of any belief sstem and as a direct effect, the person.

Atheists don't go door to door, they use bully tactics like in pre-school. "Like this or you stoopid".

Just to take a defensive stance for a moment

I haven't seen anyone on here try to "convert" anyone; but if you think religious views should be respected simply because they're religious views, then you're shit out of luck. One of the reasons why I like this forum is that almost any viewpoint is fair game, but you have to back it up; something religious people can't do, without referring to the all time great cop-out, "faith". Which to bring this conversation full circle; is why religion should never be taught as fact.

 

[Trem]

Jebus used to touch me











Oh no wait, it was my uncle.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I haven't seen anyone on here try to "convert" anyone; but if you think religious views should be respected simply because they're religious views, then you're shit out of luck. One of the reasons why I like this forum is that almost any viewpoint is fair game, but you have to back it up; something religious people can't do, without referring to the all time great cop-out, "faith". Which to bring this conversation full circle; is why religion should never be taught as fact.

Religion is a fact, gods are not(as of yet). Only time that "faith"(as christians say-:note) comes to play is in that aspect. Had to be mentioned.

I think religious views and or beliefs should be respected like you'd respect any other. If you don't respect other beliefs or people and diss them for their beliefs/other trait in GENERAL, then fair enough.

But if you start acting a certain way towards someone just because of religion, i for one think it's judgementation in sheeps clothing.

"Oh i'm no racist, but all religious people should be killed. Just saying.", you know what i mean.

And, just an add-on, yes, saying "you're stoopid for believing!" is converting as much as a priest saying "you go to hell if ya don't believe!", so there's plenty of that around these forums too.

 

[Stazbumpa]

I think its more a case of respecting the inviduals right to have those beliefs, rather than respect the beliefs themselves. Any belief or idea should stand up to scrutiny.

If its wank, then people should be able to say so.

 

[DaGaffer]

Religion is a fact, gods are not(as of yet). Only time that "faith"(as christians say-:note) comes to play is in that aspect. Had to be mentioned.

Um, what? Religion is about God (or higher powers anyway), God is about Faith, you can't have one without the other. Or are you saying you can be religious without believing in a diety? Even Buddhists believe in spiritual beings and have faith without proof; its the underlying model for ALL religions.

I think religious views and or beliefs should be respected like you'd respect any other. If you don't respect other beliefs or people and diss them for their beliefs/other trait in GENERAL, then fair enough.

But if you start acting a certain way towards someone just because of religion, i for one think it's judgementation in sheeps clothing.

"Oh i'm no racist, but all religious people should be killed. Just saying.", you know what i mean.

So all views have equal validity? Sorry, but that's utter, utter, bollocks. Its cultural relativism. If I said I absolutely and totally believed in Santa Claus, would you respect my beliefs? You might say you did, but you wouldn't. As for the racism analogy; people can't change their race (except Michael Jackson) but they can change their beliefs, its a fundamental difference. For example, in India in the 19th century, the Hashshashin cult ritualised murder and were hunted down (rightly) and killed for their beliefs, so there was a very justifiable example of beliefs being a reason for reprisal. Why should religion be awarded some special status that says it can't be admonished in the same way a political belief is? They're both entirely human constructs used to justify behaviour. Or are you saying "God made me do it" should be a legal defence?

And, just an add-on, yes, saying "you're stoopid for believing!" is converting as much as a priest saying "you go to hell if ya don't believe!", so there's plenty of that around these forums too.

No, saying "you're stupid for believing" is an invitation to debate. And actually, its very rare that anyone says that. They may say things that make you feel like they think you're stupid; but its very difficult to argue against religion without pointing out the logical flaws in religion.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think its more a case of respecting the inviduals right to have those beliefs, rather than respect the beliefs themselves. Any belief or idea should stand up to scrutiny.

If its wank, then people should be able to say so.

Aye, nice correction thank you. REspect the person, scrutinize the concept, sometimes it's too hard to distinguish though

Um, what? Religion is about God (or higher powers anyway), God is about Faith, you can't have one without the other. Or are you saying you can be religious without believing in a diety? Even Buddhists believe in spiritual beings and have faith without proof; its the underlying model for ALL religions.

But religion is a fact, the only faith part is the deities. Religions are fact and they do exist, noone can deny that, even if reasons for them can be disbuted. Not ot mention that the god aspect is so dominant mostly in christian ways, but as always, every religion gets compared to christianity.

So all views have equal validity? Sorry, but that's utter, utter, bollocks. Its cultural relativism. If I said I absolutely and totally believed in Santa Claus, would you respect my beliefs? You might say you did, but you wouldn't. As for the racism analogy; people can't change their race (except Michael Jackson) but they can change their beliefs, its a fundamental difference. For example, in India in the 19th century, the Hashshashin cult ritualised murder and were hunted down (rightly) and killed for their beliefs, so there was a very justifiable example of beliefs being a reason for reprisal. Why should religion be awarded some special status that says it can't be admonished in the same way a political belief is? They're both entirely human constructs used to justify behaviour. Or are you saying "God made me do it" should be a legal defence?

Yes, all personal views are personal and as such, hold the same merit.

Please don't assume i won't respect your views/beliefs, i would, even if you said you were concieved by the easter bunny, i'd respect your belief and your right to hold it, as much as any mans belief.

It wasn't a racism analogy, and i wish people would stop using it as a countermeasure. I meant ALL AND ANY differentiating features of people.

I'm not asking for religion to be rewarded any special status, i'm asking it be treated equally.

No, saying "you're stupid for believing" is an invitation to debate. And actually, its very rare that anyone says that. They may say things that make you feel like they think you're stupid; but its very difficult to argue against religion without pointing out the logical flaws in religion.

No it's not, it's a shun out most the time. "Mind if i say something about your faith" is an invitation, and you bloody well know what i mean. Someone tells you they're a jehovas witness, you, as almost 90% of the forums, will automatically assume. And THAT, is wrong.

I'm saying that atheists lobby for their "non-belief" as much as any other religion/belief. And as such, yes, atheism is a belief as any other.

 

[Stazbumpa]

And as such, yes, atheism is a belief as any other.

Atheism is not a belief, it is a lack of belief and could be best described as a privative, an absence of something. Like darkness, or cold, for example.
I think what you are referring to is probably "anti-theism", which may well be born out of atheism but is different to it because there is a very definate agenda involved.

I've met many smug "you're going to burn in hell" religious types, along with a lot of outright liars and cowards who will ignore or avoid every awkward question you throw at them. I have also met some complete dickheads who think its a good idea to abuse good people simply because they believe in the supernatural.

Wankers will be wankers it seems, faith or complete lack thereof tends to have little to do with it.

 

[DaGaffer]

But religion is a fact, the only faith part is the deities. Religions are fact and they do exist, noone can deny that, even if reasons for them can be disbuted. Not ot mention that the god aspect is so dominant mostly in christian ways, but as always, every religion gets compared to christianity.

But no-one's denying the existance of religion! No atheist says "I don't believe religion exists" as it demonstrably does. They say "I don't believe God (or insert preferred Skyfairy name here) exists". I don't see your point.

Yes, all personal views are personal and as such, hold the same merit.

Please don't assume i won't respect your views/beliefs, i would, even if you said you were concieved by the easter bunny, i'd respect your belief and your right to hold it, as much as any mans belief.

A view is only personal if you don't tell anyone what it is and it doesn't affect your actions. If your views influence your behaviour, then they demonstrably DO NOT hold the same merit. If I got up at sunrise and sacrificed a virgin to Baal, it hardly matters whether I sincerely believe its the right thing to do does it? (certainly not the Virgin as I pluck her plump, beating heart from her still-breathing bo...sorry) All beliefs ARE NOT EQUAL.

It wasn't a racism analogy, and i wish people would stop using it as a countermeasure. I meant ALL AND ANY differentiating features of people.

And I disagree with you. A belief is part of what you do, not what you are, and therefore can be changed, and is a demonstrated above, beliefs affect others, so should always be questioned.

I'm not asking for religion to be rewarded any special status, i'm asking it be treated equally.

And so it is. I would take someone to task for holding a ridiculous or offensive political view (e.g. nimbyism, reading the Daily Mail, excessive fondness for badgers ) and I would do the same for religion. The only difference is that at least if a person has say, a strong anti-immigration stance; you can argue both sides from a logical standpoint; you can't do that with religion!

I'm saying that atheists lobby for their "non-belief" as much as any other religion/belief. And as such, yes, atheism is a belief as any other.

Aethism is a rational analysis of the observable world, that says in all probability, God doesn't exist. Its not a belief in the same way religion is, its an analysis of the available information. And sure it may turn out to be wrong, but the most important difference between Athiesm and religion is that Athiesm is open to being wrong. If the Hubble telescope peered back to the Big Bang and found Ganeesha busily weaving the universe from clay, then prevailing scientific orthodoxy would change. That's the point.

 

[old.Tohtori]

But no-one's denying the existance of religion! No atheist says "I don't believe religion exists" as it demonstrably does. They say "I don't believe God (or insert preferred Skyfairy name here) exists". I don't see your point.

Point was towards you saying: "is why religion should never be taught as fact." when religion IS fact

A view is only personal if you don't tell anyone what it is and it doesn't affect your actions. If your views influence your behaviour, then they demonstrably DO NOT hold the same merit. If I got up at sunrise and sacrificed a virgin to Baal, it hardly matters whether I sincerely believe its the right thing to do does it? (certainly not the Virgin as I pluck her plump, beating heart from her still-breathing bo...sorry) All beliefs ARE NOT EQUAL.

Ofcourse things effect the way we act, but if we were to take out all things that effect how we act...well...then we have to say "nothing holds merit" and as such, are again, equal.

Atheists act the way they do, as in this thread, because they are.

And I disagree with you. A belief is part of what you do, not what you are, and therefore can be changed, and is a demonstrated above, beliefs affect others, so should always be questioned.

Then we simply have to just disagree as some people are what they believe, not just are because they believe. If you know what i mean?

Also some feel it from "birth". Just like someone might NOT believe in anything from "birth".

And so it is. I would take someone to task for holding a ridiculous or offensive political view (e.g. nimbyism, reading the Daily Mail, excessive fondness for badgers ) and I would do the same for religion. The only difference is that at least if a person has say, a strong anti-immigration stance; you can argue both sides from a logical standpoint; you can't do that with religion!

Plenty of things you can discuss about religion, note religion, that are viable and logical and such, but mostly those against it bring the spaghetti monster in play or other deities. Usually it's the people against religion who can't get away from the gods. Ironic as may be

Aethism is a rational analysis of the observable world, that says in all probability, God doesn't exist. Its not a belief in the same way religion is, its an analysis of the available information. And sure it may turn out to be wrong, but the most important difference between Athiesm and religion is that Athiesm is open to being wrong. If the Hubble telescope peered back to the Big Bang and found Ganeesha busily weaving the universe from clay, then prevailing scientific orthodoxy would change. That's the point.

So am i and many believers open, in same way, If we found buddha popping out planets from it's arse, i think christianity would pop an artery and die.

You're assuming religious folk are those biblewaving lunatics and i'm trying to bring some wider view in here, as all religion is not that christian or muslim(or other that god) way alone.

 

[SawTooTH]

Theres been a lot of talk about the rights of people to hold religeous beliefs as if there were some sort of constitution.

I dont think all people do have a right to hold a religeous belief where that belief denys another human being a peaceful existence. Many fundementalist religions (is that all of them?) do not respect the rights of unbelievers.

 

[Wij]

Anyway - straying from the point. Creationism is the topic at hand, not Christianty or Islam. Creationism is demonstrable bullshit, but well-funded, sneaky bullshit. As such it should be kept out of schools altogether.

It would be different if the fundamentalists were advocating teaching that homosexuals are unnatural or that black people are less human in science. However, just because the belief is slightly less repugnant, doesn't change the fact that it is just as bollocks.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

i actually agree with what hes saying its better to tell a student why they are wrong than simply say your wrong and ignore that child for the rest of that lesson.

Maybe confusing kids with religious crap isn't such a smart idea in the first place?

Fucking brainwash, in communistic states you've learned that communism is best in other countries that communism is bad and at religion lessons in school you've learned that humans are not a relative to apes but to ape men and at church religion lessons you've learned that many suck up to the asshole with the wooden stick.

Should remove the crap all together from school and offer twice the amount of sports or chess courses or whatever.

 

[Sar]

Speed of light is not a constant??? (lol)

Heh, the only time it's not a constant is when it enters a massive gravitational field (or hits certain gases).

/such a geek.