Rant Evolution vs Creationism

[Tom]

Stuff

Sigh. You've gone completely off the rails. I was suggesting that it is best to let children determine for themselves the validity of either theory, using neutral and unbiased teaching methods. I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

If evolutionary theory is fact (and I consider it to be so), then it must also hold ground in such debates. If people who choose to believe in creationism are to the detriment of the species, then they will die out.

So let them die out.

If I believe in MMGW Bodhi maybe it's my education? I've only got a degree in an environmental subject after all...

Believe?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

NOOOBODY EXPE*thunk!* Ow...

Could you unlock the door please?

 

[Goku]

Penn and Teller's Bullshit show on creationism, a slightly similar story about it getting taught in schools, well worth a watch.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D9u0TijWR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvNwzPNjz9k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4jJ1L3yoP0&feature=related

 

[Scouse]

Sigh. You've gone completely off the rails. I was suggesting that it is best to let children determine for themselves the validity of either theory, using neutral and unbiased teaching methods. I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

If evolutionary theory is fact (and I consider it to be so), then it must also hold ground in such debates. If people who choose to believe in creationism are to the detriment of the species, then they will die out.

So let them die out.

I understood what you were suggesting Tom, and rebuffed your argument. Restating it doesn't make me want to rebuff it more (although I was impressed with your sly use of the Spanish Inquisition)

As for:

Believe?

You're arguing semantics there old badger - you understood the context

Anyway, the arguments are becoming circular. Nothing more to be gained by me spitting more vitriol at this bunch of nutbars

 

[Ctuchik]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

You can't keep creationism out of schools, because kids (and teachers) bring it in with them. Far better to face up to it, and show why its not science, than pretend the idea of creationism doesn't exist.

but that isnt making the student chose for themself. that only makes them confused.

school is (in my oppinion) there to teach you the basics of life. and creationism sure as hell isnt part of it because theres not ONE single piece of scientific evidence around to support it.

all they have is one book and a few hundred million ppl claiming its true "because god says it is!".

 

[Chilly]

Im skeptical whether kids younger than about 16 are capable of understanding the arguments and evidence involved in the proof of evolution. Some <16 year olds can, of course, but I'd suggest the majority would have trouble. Obviously, the basic ideas are clear and easy to get across but proving them is difficult.

Schools are there, at least in part, to teach fact. I believe this is a fact that should be taught as the law of gravitation is taught (even though neither are understood, their effects are visible and measurable).

Kids need wiser people (teachers) to steer their minds in the right direction. Yes, debate is good, but letting them form the wrong impressions is worrying.

Personally, I dont want creationalism anywhere near science classrooms, as its not science. By all means teach it in philosophy or RE or whatever, but it is NOT science.

 

[SawTooTH]

Im skeptical whether kids younger than about 16 are capable of understanding the arguments and evidence involved in the proof of evolution. Some <16 year olds can, of course, but I'd suggest the majority would have trouble. Obviously, the basic ideas are clear and easy to get across but proving them is difficult.

Schools are there, at least in part, to teach fact. I believe this is a fact that should be taught as the law of gravitation is taught (even though neither are understood, their effects are visible and measurable).

Kids need wiser people (teachers) to steer their minds in the right direction. Yes, debate is good, but letting them form the wrong impressions is worrying.

Personally, I dont want creationalism anywhere near science classrooms, as its not science. By all means teach it in philosophy or RE or whatever, but it is NOT science.

There was that C4 programme about Darwin where the Dawkmeister laid out all the evidence about evolution to some kids with different faiths. When asked whether what they had seen altered their view they all defaulted to their programmed belief system. Thats why religions like to get them young.

 

[Chilly]

Exactly, and thats why you need to TEACH, not suggest.

 

[Wij]

Sorry Tom but Scouse is largely right. People do not make decisions about what to believe based on solid rational principles. Sophistry and spin work by manipulating the fact that humans aren't particularly rational. Introducing kids the subtly wrong arguments put forward by modern creatonists will encourage a signficant proportion of them to subscribe to bullshit all their lives.

A good book showing how poor human decision-making is:

Amazon.co.uk: Irrationality: Stuart Sutherland: Books

Keep bullshit and spin away from kids until they are 18 at least imo.

 

[Tiani]

Unfortunately I am on the creationism is a load of bollox bus ;p and no I dont think it should be taught in schools. I find religion to be a massive waste of time and also a serious problem in todays society.

People build thier lives around unsolicited theories and belief's that are fundamentally flawwed, people dedicate thier whole way of life, and let their very happiness take a back seat in the name of religion. They also cause wars, genocide, acts of terrorism and some of the sickest most discusting forms of child abuse/ mistreatment in the name of 'religion'

Recently read an article on a Muslim celebration where two young boys no older than 12 were forced to whip themselves ferociously with a bladed 9 tail whip in the name of religion.

This is deemed acceptable in those religious circles and is part of their culture and heritage. This is nothing more that sick child abuse/voilence and I cannot believe this kind of thing is allowed to happen in this day and age.

Sharia law is also now recognised in the UK as a practicing law that Muslims now face in matters of divorce etc. Some of their punishments would be considered sick!

People would argue that religion promotes a healthier, good 'christian' way of life but I find the end to this means a hypocracy, I would rather my children live their lives as good people because they are good people, not out of fear that some omnipitent being in a white robe and beard shall smite them down and they shall be left to rot in the depths of hell for all eternity!

The problem also stems when you mix the various themes of religion in every day life, how many people have told their kids their pet goldfish has died and gone to heaven ? How can people expect their kids to comprehend this and at the same time that Religion is a load of crap and a waste of time when the ideas are so muddled into every day life ? Christmas, birthdays, easter, all of this is based on religion, commercialised for profit yes, but still fundamentally it is based on religious ideas.

Teach kids both by all means, no in fact dont teach them, just inform them but not in school as part of their education, teach them fact not finction.

Religion is a form of controll (ala Matrix) invented years ago, somehow this drivel has survived centuries of intellectual evolution, god knows how!

 

[Tom]

Teach kids both by all means, no in fact dont teach them, just inform them but not in school as part of their education, teach them fact not finction.

...and spelling, and grammar, perhaps?

 

[Scouse]

You put a comma before your "and" there Tom...

 

[JingleBells]

You put a comma before your "and" there Tom...

That's the oxford comma!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, not to derail too much into the whole "religion bad" discussion raging on, as per usual when even a hint of god is thrown there, but thought i'd mention that when-ever i come face to face(real or internet) with anti-religious people, it seems that my religion(belief, whatever) makes them unhappy.

So from people who let other peoples lives effect them so deeply, how could they ever judge on someones personal beliefs?

 

[Tiani]

oh noez its the grammar police!

Drop the bullshit I'm at work typing this as quick as I can without being noticed, If I made errors that offend you that much then I am very sorry but would suggest you seek life away from your computer for maybe a while ?


This is a forum, not an english exam, I left school 10 years ago thank you very much!

 

[Tiani]

Well, not to derail too much into the whole "religion bad" discussion raging on, as per usual when even a hint of god is thrown there, but thought i'd mention that when-ever i come face to face(real or internet) with anti-religious people, it seems that my religion(belief, whatever) makes them unhappy.

So from people who let other peoples lives effect them so deeply, how could they ever judge on someones personal beliefs?

religion isnt bad in itself, believing in something inherently good is a great thing, its the twisted interpretation of beliefs by individuals that cause problems, an its when they want to shove this down people's throats and in most case are given backing for this because the government are politically correct madhatters that gets my goat.

This should be left out of schools, I dont even think RE is acceptable in schools. Education is in place to teach children the skills they will need to progress in life and the working world. I would rather leave this stuff out of schools completely and either a. let people decide for themselves as they get older or b. let their parents handle education in regards to religion. It has no place in schools imo.

 

[Scouse]

Well, not to derail too much into the whole "religion bad" discussion raging on, as per usual when even a hint of god is thrown there, but thought i'd mention that when-ever i come face to face(real or internet) with anti-religious people, it seems that my religion(belief, whatever) makes them unhappy.

I find it the other way round - when I meet religious people they always want to "convert" me, like I'm missing out on something.

When was the last time a group of atheists knocked on your door and said "we want you to stop believing in God"...

Have your Beliefs. Keep 'em to yerself

 

[rynnor]

You don't, you comprehend something that is believable. People can hold rational beliefs - why not respect them?

There are no 'rational' religious beliefs - they may be many things but they are all by definition irrational.

 

[old.Tohtori]

religion isnt bad in itself, believing in something inherently good is a great thing, its the twisted interpretation of beliefs by individuals that cause problems, an its when they want to shove this down people's throats and in most case are given backing for this because the government are politically correct madhatters that gets my goat.

True, true, and yes, even i think fanatics and religionshovers are bad. No need to shove anything to anyone.

I find it the other way round - when I meet religious people they always want to "convert" me, like I'm missing out on something.

When was the last time a group of atheists knocked on your door and said "we want you to stop believing in God"...

Have your Beliefs. Keep 'em to yerself

Heh, well, i could say "i've never told atheists that their belief is wrong", but do true, atheists don't sell it as much as the MAJOR religions.

I guess we, as humans, naturally take the worst we meet as the general concept to which we then refer to as "everyone in that group".

Even i have to admit i've had some "cautious behaviour" towards certain groups, but, live and learn and these days i'm in the "100% do ANYTHING you want as long as you don't try to change me or bring it in my life" without judging others in same group.

 

[DaGaffer]

So from people who let other peoples lives effect them so deeply, how could they ever judge on someones personal beliefs?

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think most people who've come to an athiest point of view have done so because they've actually thought about it, rather than live with the default position handed down by their parents/upbringing, so they get frustrated with people who don't "get it".

Personally, I kind of ignore the people (like my girlfriend for instance) who are perfectly happy to call themselves Christian while not thinking about the plausibility of the whole thing, but I do get upset by the people who actually thought about it and still think religion, and Christianity in particular, is a valid explanation for the world. I just can't get my head around how anyone could possibly take Christianity at face value and think "yup, makes sense to me", because its fucking preposterous! To me, there is no sadder thing in the world than a Nun; its the ultimate expression of a life wasted (and I know some of them do good work etc. but they don't have to marry Christ to be a nurse), in the service of an utterly ludicrous ideology.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I get your point and do realise that atheists have the same right to believe what they believe, after death it's clear i think who's right and who's wrong.

I don't however see any point in people getting so hellbent over other peoples ways to live, religious or not, as it just seems like they put more effort into other peoples lives then in their own.

 

[Scouse]

Personally, I kind of ignore the people (like my girlfriend for instance) who are perfectly happy to call themselves Christian while not thinking about the plausibility of the whole thing, but I do get upset by the people who actually thought about it and still think religion, and Christianity in particular, is a valid explanation for the world. I just can't get my head around how anyone could possibly take Christianity at face value and think "yup, makes sense to me", because its fucking preposterous! To me, there is no sadder thing in the world than a Nun; its the ultimate expression of a life wasted (and I know some of them do good work etc. but they don't have to marry Christ to be a nurse), in the service of an utterly ludicrous ideology.

I think the same thing about diehard capitalists.

...after death it's clear i think who's right and who's wrong...

Only a religious person could say that

 

[DaGaffer]

I think the same thing about diehard capitalists.

That depends on what you mean by "capitalist"; its rather a broad church (pardon the pun); and while all capitalist systems (and indeed democratic systems) are flawed; they're usually the "least worst" option. And we've discussed this before

 

[nath]

I get your point and do realise that atheists have the same right to believe what they believe

<Nitpick>Technically atheism isn't a belief but the lack of religious belief.</nitpick>

 

[old.Tohtori]

Only a religious person could say that

Nah, realist. As you can't "prove", or noone has proven, any religious theory in life, only death will show what the truth is and who is wrong.

Shame that A: if there's nothing, you won't notice, but won't care either and B: If there is, and even if you're right, it seems evident it's quite hard to come back and rub peoples noses in it

<Nitpick>Technically atheism isn't a belief but the lack of religious belief.</nitpick>

Fair nitpick though.

Which kinda sparked an interesting view; isn't atheism like creationism, in that sense that it's "sole" purpose is to debunk something?

If creationism is that.

Kind of...ironic i think.

 

[Scouse]

And in other news, rounding this one off nicely (for once):

Freaky dumbass religious-type gets booted out of Royal Society. Society acknowledges that creationism is bunch of arse!

FTW eh?!

 

[nath]

Which kinda sparked an interesting view; isn't atheism like creationism, in that sense that it's "sole" purpose is to debunk something?

Atheism doesn't have a *purpose*. Atheism is not a belief system, it's not a way of thinking it's just the lack of theological belief. There's a common attitude that puts atheism on a par with religion as just another belief about how the world works. I can't help but think this is religious folk trying to drag atheism down to their level, to make it seem like they're just different viewpoints.

 

[Sar]

And in other news, rounding this one off nicely (for once):

Freaky dumbass religious-type gets booted out of Royal Society. Society acknowledges that creationism is bunch of arse!

FTW eh?!

Indeed.

Toht et al: I don't deny people their beliefs. What they believe is entirely up to them, but when people try to deceive others by spouting, quite frankly, bullshit and doubletalk, twisting facts & truth and trying to present Religion as Science, it's that that gets me riled up.

I don't however see any point in people getting so hellbent over other peoples ways to live, religious or not, as it just seems like they put more effort into other peoples lives then in their own.

Exactly, which is why I get angry when Fundamentalist Christians, Muslims and others try to force others into believing as they do.


Creationists are just as bad. There's no scientific facts backing up their alleged Creation Science. Press one of them on it and they'll fold quicker than a poker player with a shit hand.

I'd love to see one of them explain how, for instance, the light from the Andromeda Galaxy, which is 31 million light years away, has made it to earth inside of 6,000 years. Going by their "theory" it shouldn't reach the earth for another 30,994,000 years yet.

All the testable, verifiable and reliable science debunks them, and yet they ignore the facts and spout bullshit to try to make themselves and their "cause" sound more plausible.

 

[SawTooTH]

Indeed.

Toht et al: I don't deny people their beliefs. What they believe is entirely up to them, but when people try to deceive others by spouting, quite frankly, bullshit and doubletalk, twisting facts & truth and trying to present Religion as Science, it's that that gets me riled up.

Exactly, which is why I get angry when Fundamentalist Christians, Muslims and others try to force others into believing as they do.


Creationists are just as bad. There's no scientific facts backing up their alleged Creation Science. Press one of them on it and they'll fold quicker than a poker player with a shit hand.

I'd love to see one of them explain how, for instance, the light from the Andromeda Galaxy, which is 31 million light years away, has made it to earth inside of 6,000 years. Going by their "theory" it shouldn't reach the earth for another 30,994,000 years yet.

All the testable, verifiable and reliable science debunks them, and yet they ignore the facts and spout bullshit to try to make themselves and their "cause" sound more plausible.

Speed of light is not a constant??? (lol)

 

[TdC]

God can do anything Sar you ninny, except create a weight He can't lift seriously though, that will be the answer eh. The man moves in mysterious ways. It's going to be just like tachyons from our fave tv series heh.















(before anyone goes RAAR TDC RELIGIOUS NUTTOR, I'm a pastafarian tha knows )