Europe and our future

[Xtro]

I enjoyed (to a point) the thread about God that Ash started the other day.

In a Kilroy-esque move I'd be interested to know what the happy family of BW (cough) think about Europe, the European Union, single currency etc.

I will start the ball rolling.

Single currency - yes please. This just makes *sense*. To the doubters who are doubting for sound economical reasons, ok fair enough. To the people who think OMG NO QUEENS HEAD ON A BIT OF PAPER OR COIN MEANS WE LOSE OUR IDENTITY I think get...real. They said the same in 71 about decimalisation.

European Union and the future of Europe - well I'm all for a United States of Europe. There...said it. Yes that includes the French (not the biggest fan of the French). Integrating the former Eastern Bloc countries is a great move, I really can see at some point this century we'll go the whole way.

To me, it doesn't mean sacrificing our "national identity", the US states all have their own laws and characteristics/identity, why should the UK lose anything? I don't particularly like the UK anyway so I'm not the best person to comment here.

I would ramble more and a lot more coherently but I'm late for work.

Maybe this will lead to an interesting discussion, maybe not. ta ta!

 

[Will]

My views may differ drastically from the average forum punter due to my being a Scottish Liberal, but then again, Xtro is looking suspiciously liberal himself.

Single Currency - Why the hell not? My only concern is price-bumping during the changeover, where everything gets rounded up. As for the concern about the Queen's head...we don't have her on the banknotes up here anyway.

European Union - Independance in Europe is the closest Scotland will ever get to independance. We have our own laws and education system, so once there is European union, we are already there. Also, it could counter-balance the power of the US, and also I think it would make the world a better place if the divisions within Europe disappeared.

 

[Wij]

I hate to be a pessimist but it won't make the divisions in Europe dissappear at all. It will likely cause several ETA-style terrorist groups insisting on independance.

And Counter-balance the power of the USA ? I'm sorry but I can't see Europe ever acheiving that. The EU could not organise a piss-up in a brewery without first stockpiling a beer-lake, trying to give it to an African nation, paying French farmers a billion Euros to drink it and then awarding all EU commissioners a 150% pay-rise after 4 years of hard-meetings and fact-finding missions to Dordogne.

And the beer wouldn't be Czech either :/

 

[old.tRoG]

I really couldn't care less about what coins I buy my stuff with, although I'm a teeny bit scared that the prices on things will rise when we change over. That would be a biatch.

A united Europe will probably happen some time... But most likely, won't work

 

[Damini]

No thanks to a single currency. Having been to Ireland after the exchange, its lovely to see everything was rounded up to a bank breaking whole number in the shops and bars, which I would bet my life the wages weren't. I can't see England being any different at all, no matter what the rhetoric spouted about it would be.

Also, I'm not too great on the economic side, but having a system of value based on several very differnet countries, with very different economies, exports, imports, industries and politics seems a bit like a recipe for disaster really. I know initially its just using the Euro, and having your own rates set by the internal bank, but its not going to stay that way is it? And surely the differing rates of exchange have been key to the import export industries for ages? I know britain's high pound scares off some exporters, and encourages us to buy from abroad (la la neglecting english farmers etc) but this has been the foundation for our industry ever since empire days, and such a change is going to have massive rumblings.

Some one with better understanding of economics than me, please can they tell me what would be so good about it?

 

[Gumbo]

Prices would go up in the changeover, it's happened every time so far, but thats a short term thing.

The bigger worry is the lack of control that we would then have over our own economy. Unfortunatly what may be good for the Spanish at any one time may not be good for the Germans, may not be good for the French, may not be good for us... However with one currency you are forced to go with whatever is decided by the central bank. Call me selfish, but I would rather we kept control of our own economy, that way if we do manage to screw it up royally, we can then get ourselves out of it without having to rely on other countries thinking that the interest rates etc should be tailored to help out those poor Brits.

As far as further European integration goes, can we please all start playing by the same rules first. We seem to be the only country who actually stick to all the edicts emanating from Brussels whilst the other member states barely pay them lip-service. Frankly, I'd prefer a nice simple open trading partnership that makes sense through an accident of geography. I don't see the need for an all consuming, overblown bureaucracy meddling in our affairs. We have our own overblown bureaucracy perfectly capable of doing that, thankyou.

 

[throdgrain]

Originally posted by Wij
I hate to be a pessimist but it won't make the divisions in Europe dissappear at all. It will likely cause several ETA-style terrorist groups insisting on independance.

And Counter-balance the power of the USA ? I'm sorry but I can't see Europe ever acheiving that. The EU could not organise a piss-up in a brewery without first stockpiling a beer-lake, trying to give it to an African nation, paying French farmers a billion Euros to drink it and then awarding all EU commissioners a 150% pay-rise after 4 years of hard-meetings and fact-finding missions to Dordogne.

And the beer wouldn't be Czech either :/

Fucking spot on

 

[SoWat]

Wouldn't mind the Euro.

As for the EU itself... the French originally blocked Britain's entry into the EEC to protect their farmers. Once the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) was in place to spoonfeed french farmers, they allowed us in (to pay for it!).

Nothing much has changed since. France only looks after France's interests and regards the EU as it's private kitty. Corruption and bureaucracy is rife, with whistleblowers being hounded out of office.

The fact there are 2 parliaments vividly illustrates the absurdity that is the EU.

We now have a swathe of Eastern-European countries entering the EU. I doubt they are there to contribute money, rather they see the EU as a piggy bank waiting to be rifled.

 

[Mr.Monkey]

My concern is purely economic.

I've yet to hear a single arguement pro-euro that doesn't boil down to the old classic "It's inevitable"

We lose control of our interest rates. That means that a foreign body sets the rate, with what it thinks is best. What is best for the majority of contries in the EU is highly unlikely to be the best for the UK, as we have a much free-er and open capitalist market than predominantly socialist Europe.

We get locked in at a fixed exchange rate, forever. At the moment, your businessman may find it harder to sell abroad due to the strength of the pound. If we joined now, the pound would be "locked" in at a very strong position, hence our goods would never be competitive in europe, killing our manufacturing service dead.

It is another step towards Federal Europe. Where our government has no power to decide any home economic policies. This can already be seen with the human rights acts being cited by trade unions in order to get even easier deals than they already have.

It would link our currency with some less than savoury countries like Italy, and Spain where organised crime is prevalent at government level! Meaning money laundering becomes easier and fraud harder to detect.

We are in the best position to be an economic bridge between the US and EU. If we position ourselves carefully we could become a very wealthy nation, by exploiting the weaknesses of both powers.

And where are the benefits of the Euro? It's been in place since the exchange rates were locked in Jan 99. 4 years later, the EU is showing no significant economic upturn, there has been no major drive in the strength of the euro (still a fairly weak currency compared to the dollar). So why is it good?

I apologise for any boring accountancy speak. I'm an accountant

 

[Panda On Smack]

I dont understand it all so I just don't bother thinking about it.

im sure it will effect me 1 day so until then . .

 

[Furr]

Burn the French, burn them all.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by throdgrain
Fucking spot on

I aim to please

 

[Xtro]

Originally posted by Furr
Burn the French, burn them all.

Xenophobia asides, what do you actually think about it all Furr?

 

[MYstIC G]

1. Euro: tbh don't see the point, don't care about the pound being "british" or "has queens face", very much like the "wipes the floor with other currencies in the exchange rate stakes" part and imho the euro isn't stable enough yet for my liking. On the other hand it would be nice to think that there might finally be some common sense across europe in that it would hopefully become impossible to justify _vast_ price differences between states for items.
   
2. Laws: well ours don't work properly anyway, so who gives a crud if they're replaced with a bunch of european ones that also don't work?
   
3. Scottish Independance: pfft, don't make us invade you again!
   
4. Organised Crime: what makes you think that our government isn't crooked ffs?[/list=1] Ramble over.

 

[Ch3tan]

I was against a single currency, but unfortunatly its done well and now Britiain is left with no choice but to join. The longer it is left the worse it will be for us.

Europe needs to work, simply to rival the US.

 

[ECA]

Shocking I tell you!

I agree with ch3t

You know one of the real reasons for invading Iraq btw?

A lot of the major oil producers were considering a change to the euro as the currency to deal in, obviously with the USA in charge of Iraq that isn't going to happen and the USA gets all the extra cash involved instead of us.

 

[mank!]

The euro I wouldn't object to particularly, it's a good idea and ultimately it's not going to kill us all, so why worry? As for people saying how expensive stuff is in Ireland, I found it wasn't the case. I worked out the price of some stuff and it was generally cheaper than over here. Possibly not the case with everything, but petrol was certainly cheaper.

As for the rest... I'll let the more politically minded decide. I'm not against it anyway.

 

[Gumbo]

Ahha you worked out the price using the exchange rate though. We have a strong pound. It buys a lot of Euros, so therefore stuff in Ireland wasn't that expensive. If you were Irish however then stuff has got a lot more expensive since the Euro was introduced.

 

[mank!]

Ah. My knowledge (or lack of) the economy/money has failed me

 

[throdgrain]

ECA you really don't have any idea whether that is the truth its purely hearsay fgs .

 

[ECA]

Yeah thats why a middle east analyst on C4 said it :-]

 

[Mr.Monkey]

Originally posted by Ch3tan
I was against a single currency, but unfortunatly its done well and now Britiain is left with no choice but to join. The longer it is left the worse it will be for us.

Europe needs to work, simply to rival the US.

Here you go. The "it's inevitable" arguement.

How exactly has the euro done well? The currency was never going to crash and burn. Currencies can't really do that if you have developed nations adopting them. Too much in the way of reserves to throw around. The euro however, is still the sick man of the currencies. It has gained some strength, but this was from a postion of untenable weakness.

The UK could always negotiate a position in the EU that is not fully integrated, allowing us to gain from having economic ties with both the EU and US.

Both the countries need us as a go-between. All we have to do is exploit it.
But Mr.Blair would rather go for the "give spain gibralta, and hope he gets voted EU president when he retires as PM."
Damn his vanity,

 

[throdgrain]

Yeah and I bet you could get 10 middle-east analysts to deny it on BBC 2 ....

 

[Deadmanwalking]

The Euro is only where it is now because the Germans have more or less single handedly kept it going in some form or other. The french are to self obessed and most of the other countries arn't in a position to keep the Euro afloat.
Britain joining would only help the Euro as a whole, but yes wouldn't help itself as much as everyone is wanting/saying.

 

[Sharma]

My view on Europe on the single Currency -

Since my family isnt exactly THE richest family on the planet weve only actually been the USA once, however the rest of the time we have went to Europe, this year i went to Ibiza and i was actually quite suprised to find how well they have adapted, they aare wailing in any Industry problems from what i could tell and the proces were on overall MUCH cheaper than england, the only cocky bit what having to mess around and change cash, if we were to have one currency we would could just travel around europe without the worry of having to change currency the moment you meet a border.

The possibility of doing a treck around europe is much more possible now since you only have to change currency once as opposed to around 9 times, we will not loose our identity either, on the backs of coins there are the heads of famous people from their countries, i think ONCE in Ibiza i had one different euro and that was from Ireland, i mean come on, people arent gonna flip out if they find a german euro are they?

"OMG I FOUND A GERMAN EURO IN MEH MONEH IM LIEK LOSING MY COUNTRIES IDIENTITY NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111"

The more we say we are not going into the europe the less we are actually being a team player in europe and with Blairs current activities, he is making the UK a VERY unpopular place among Europe, tbh i would rather move to country that has the euro, least i wouldnt have to change currencyy everytime i want to go somewhere nice and i dont really class the UK as "nice".

 

[Deadmanwalking]

As gumbo said you made the mistake mank did, things were cheaper when changing from Pounds Sterling as the pound is strong. For the people their compared to the currency they had before things would be more expensive on the whole.

 

[Garaen]

I am living in Germany at the moment, i would like to see Briton join the Euro also. The main problem with changing to the Euro is the increase of price's. Quite a few thing's have lowerd in price but there are still some item's which stayed higher than they were.

 

[Yoni]

Apart from being an obvious Francophobe (working for French companies for the majority of your working life does that to you)

My concerns about Europe are mainly economic.

1] Reduced flexibility in response to economic shock most likely cause in the UK would be the volatility of the housing market. Once we have joined Europe (an irreversible decision) the use of monetary policy to correct this will no longer be an option which means we will be entirely dependent on the flexibility of the labour market and fiscal policy. UK history of trying to manage demand using fiscal policy was not pleasant resulting in a mountain of debt (1950's / 1960's). Fiscal policy decisions also take longer to implement.

2] Joining whilst the exchange rate is incorrect (need I remind anyone of the fiasco of the ERM in 1992)

 

[Deadmanwalking]

The bean counter has spoken.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Okay as living in a Euro country I think I can give some comments.
1e prices in the beginning will rise... but at the moment some prices are dropping again. Lets not forget that happens all the time, a change in currency is always a good excuse to up the prices (oh and the costs will always be paid by the customers).

Also I read it was the Germans that are keeping the Euro stable? The Euro is gaining for the past 6 months against the dollar and the pound. That is not thanks to the Germans who have not kept their part of the agreement, they escaped punishment for have a too high deficite thanks to the French (they have a larger one, big surprise). If someone has to be credited for the succes of the Euro at the moment it's Duisenberg and he is dutch, oh lets not forget he believes in a strong currency. A negative point for some in Europe is however that his wife is a palestinian activist, and the president of the ECB should be politicly neutral.

Before you start to think Europe agrees with one thing Duisenberg is doing think again. While in the north of Europe rather have a strong euro while in the south (France Italy etc) they would rather have a weaker one. So to say the Euro has a future I aint sure. Personally I would rather have a strong currency with for instance the Netherlands Germany UK Ireland? and the Scandinavian countries. A side benefit is that the economic ideas are rather similar so less argument.

Many changes are needed for a united Europe. Just look at the money spending jack asses in Brussels lol they even move the whole bloody parlement every month for one day to Strassbourg.