Politics Election 2019

[Scouse]

Anyway. When we've scrapped the nhs and are blowing up migrants in the channel, I can't wait for it to be considered patriotic.

By whom?

noun: patriotism

the quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country

I can be a devoted and vigorous supporter of this country - and want it to uphold it's values of tolerance and support of the vulnerable and needy - including channel-crossing migrants or refugees fleeing war.

There's nothing that says that patriotic devotion to your country means you can't be, think and act that way.

I can be both that and be a vigorous supporter of other countries, humans, ways of life also. In no way does patriotism mean that I see our way of life and culture as superior to, say, other European countries.

I can also be hugely critical of the things Blighty does wrong and still be a patriot.


You can support the dismantling of the NHS and it's replacement with a private healthcare system and still be a patriot. It's called having a different opinion.

However, there's a word for people who want to blow migrants up in the channel and it isn't "patriot". It's arsehole.

 

[Gwadien]

Oh do fuck off.

Standard response when someone's been a bit of a dickhead and has this pointed out clearly too them is "don't be condescending".

Try this: Reword the above "you're wrong, and this is why" in a way people won't be a butthurt snowflake about it.

Apologies, I thought this was a discussion forum, not The Temple of Scouse.

Also, snowflakes? You've really been caught hook line and sinker by the alt right huh?

 

[Gwadien]

By whom?


I can be a devoted and vigorous supporter of this country - and want it to uphold it's values of tolerance and support of the vulnerable and needy - including channel-crossing migrants or refugees fleeing war.

There's nothing that says that patriotic devotion to your country means you can't be, think and act that way.

I can be both that and be a vigorous supporter of other countries, humans, ways of life also. In no way does patriotism mean that I see our way of life and culture as superior to, say, other European countries.

I can also be hugely critical of the things Blighty does wrong and still be a patriot.


You can support the dismantling of the NHS and it's replacement with a private healthcare system and still be a patriot. It's called having a different opinion.

However, there's a word for people who want to blow migrants up in the channel and it isn't "patriot". It's arsehole.

So you're saying patriotism is when you love your country regardless of who's leading it and what they're doing with it?

That's how the Nazis happened, m8.

We live in a democracy, if as a society we decide to vote in extreme parties, that reflects society (or it should, but that's debatable with all the brain washing going on via the internet), so in my point of view Governments = country.

 

[DaGaffer]

So you're saying patriotism is when you love your country regardless of who's leading it and what they're doing with it?

That's how the Nazis happened, m8.

He clearly doesn't say that, at all. What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Gwadien]

He clearly doesn't say that, at all. What the fuck are you talking about?

I can also be hugely critical of the things Blighty does wrong and still be a patriot.

 

[Scouse]

Also, snowflakes? You've really been caught hook line and sinker by the alt right huh?

Nope. Sometimes a label just works.

He clearly doesn't say that, at all. What the fuck are you talking about?

He's supposed to be a teacher too. History, though, not English comprehension.

in my point of view Governments = country.

Then your penchant for being over-simplistic is clearly your undoing. Which circles us back round to:

You really need to focus on the semantics a bit more m8.

Try not to melt...

 

[Raven]

Keir Starmer: Labour must 'get serious about winning'

The Labour leader also attacks Boris Johnson's "serial incompetence" in his first conference speech.

www.bbc.co.uk

I really am warming to him.

I have voted Labour for the last 10-15 years, not because I have particularly agreed with Labour...but they just aren't Tories, or more specifically, they aren't this waste of air pretty pointless vote though, she usually landslides it, she literally couldn't give a fuck about local issues.

 

[Gwadien]

Nope. Sometimes a label just works.


He's supposed to be a teacher too. History, though, not English comprehension.


Then your penchant for being over-simplistic is clearly your undoing. Which circles us back round to:

Try not to melt...

Personally I think you need to think about what patriotism means in the real world as opposed to what the dictionary says.

We're sleep walking into a world where we'll be divided by centre right and far right politics.

Time will see

 

[Scouse]

Personally I think you need to think about what patriotism means in the real world as opposed to what the dictionary says.

I do and have done. I'm a patriot.

I've given you the word used to describe people who say they're patriots when wanting to blow up migrants.

Job isn't a "real world patriot". He's an arsehole. And we don't pivot our language around him and people like him.

 

[Gwadien]

I do and have done. I'm a patriot.

I've given you the word used to describe people who say they're patriots when wanting to blow up migrants.

Job isn't a "real world patriot". He's an arsehole. And we don't pivot our language around him and people like him.

So by the Labour Party saying 'Patriotism is fine!' Are they trying to appeal to you, or Job?

I think it's very much the latter.

Unless they can get back working class northern voters who voted for Brexit and populist right wing policies, they're a dead party.

That means the Labour party shifting to the right, obviously.

It's not like they're going to say that then start having leftist policies and try to re-define what a patriot is to a northern working class voter.

 

[Raven]

I agree, I think they will certainly move to the right, but I don't think they will go full retard over it. They certainly won't support the dismantling of the NHS, for example.

 

[Gwadien]

I agree, I think they will certainly move to the right, but I don't think they will go full retard over it. They certainly won't support the dismantling of the NHS, for example.

No, but it could change the political landscape so that Labour no longer have the protection of the NHS at the top of their agenda, thus giving the Tories the green light to do what they will.

 

[Scouse]

So by the Labour Party saying 'Patriotism is fine!' Are they trying to appeal to you, or Job?

Who gives a fuck what short-term twatwaffle a political party is saying to con wankers to voting them into power?

Do the fucking Labour Party define the English Language now?

 

[Gwadien]

Who gives a fuck what short-term twatwaffle a political party is saying to con wankers to voting them into power?

Do the fucking Labour Party define the English Language now?

You called me a snowflake earlier.

I'm not actually a tiny bit of frozen water, you know?

How dare you re-define what a word means!

I find it odd that you criticised New Labour, but when they're doing the exact same thing again, you don't appear to be concerned.

Or is it just because you want to 'win' an discussion?

 

[DaGaffer]

Yeah that doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. The statement doesn't contain the word "government" for a start.

 

[Scouse]

You called me a snowflake earlier.

I'm not actually a tiny bit of frozen water, you know?

How dare you re-define what a word means!

I've not re-defined anything. Snowflake is a metaphor.

noun: metaphor

a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

You're so far down some bizarre political rabbit hole (that tbh, I can't even be arsed trying to untangle) that you're literally redefining what Patriot and Patriotism means, in response to some press shit from labour or how you "feel" about what it should mean (in your opinion, of course).


You're demonstrating a shocking inability to understand what is actually being said. Specifics, @Gwadien. Specifics, semantics and detail. They're important. Especially semantics, it's the study of meaning - and it's something you're certainly not paying very much attention to at all.

 

[Ormorof]

You are being condescending though

Can be patriotic and not a nationalist, can despair at the idea that both major parties in UK want power rather than following an ideal or vision

Reality perhaps but still sucks balls

 

[Yoni]

Condescending much?, m8?

When that group of individuals all disagree with you then you need to self-reflect just a bit surely oO

 

[Gwadien]

When that group of individuals all disagree with you then you need to self-reflect just a bit surely oO

I'll wait for the labour manifesto to be released before engaging in group think thanks.

 

[Yoni]

Seriously you are behaving like a pompous ass... get over yourself

 

[Scouse]

I'll wait for the labour manifesto to be released before engaging in group think thanks.

Nothing to do with Labour @Gwadien. Patriotism isn't about the government of the day.

 

[Gwadien]

Nothing to do with Labour @Gwadien. Patriotism isn't about the government of the day.

Well, if the Labour manifesto lurches hard to the right, then my predictions are correct. If not, then your dictionary description of Patriotism is correct.

 

[Gwadien]

Seriously you are behaving like a pompous ass... get over yourself

Literally came into the thread just to have a pop, and I'm the pompous ass?

 

[Yoni]

Gosh what an assumption - I am and have been very active in this thread - sadly I do not have a job where I get to sit all day on the internet typing bullshit - so i am reacting to todays posts.

 

[Scouse]

Well, if the Labour manifesto lurches hard to the right, then my predictions are correct. If not, then your dictionary description of Patriotism is correct.

I never thought I'd say this, but you really are becoming the @Job of the left.

He wants to redefine what Racism means when he's clearly wrong, you want to redefine what Patriotism means when you're clearly wrong.


One is hard racist. One is hard anti-racist. Both of you want to politicise a couple of words to mean something they don't to push a worldview - to the point that you're both come across like some swivel eyed loons.

I'll pull back from the Job comparisons though Gwad - you've only recently become swivel-eyed and generally that changes with age (there's an actual pattern) so maybe not all hope is lost.

 

[Gwadien]

I never thought I'd say this, but you really are becoming the @Job of the left.

He wants to redefine what Racism means when he's clearly wrong, you want to redefine what Patriotism means when you're clearly wrong.


One is hard racist. One is hard anti-racist. Both of you want to politicise a couple of words to mean something they don't to push a worldview - to the point that you're both come across like some swivel eyed loons.

I'll pull back from the Job comparisons though Gwad - you've only recently become swivel-eyed and generally that changes with age (there's an actual pattern) so maybe not all hope is lost.

Just to clarify, I don't think patriotism is a bad word.

I think you're getting hung up on some far-left perception of me that I want to shut down all debate, you're missing the point.

@Ormorof seems to be the only one that understood.

And as much as you think you can tell me I'm wrong and you're right, the fact is, neither of us know until the manifestos are released, and the proof will be in the pudding

 

[Embattle]

If he actually managed to move Labour from the left away from groups like FBU he might manage it, especially with Boris floundering.

 

[Gwadien]

If he actually managed to move Labour from the left away from groups like FBU he might manage it, especially with Boris floundering.

But that is entirely my point, Labour shouldn't shadow the Tories in order to become popular.

With Brexit coming up, the next election could very much shape Britain's future for a long time to come, and the options between Tories and (potentially, IMO, please don't shoot me) a Tory-Lite Labour party makes it a bit boring.

It seems to me that in UK politics the approach is OK we lost that election, so how can we copy the people that beat us so we have a better chance at the next election, rather than changing your ideas completely, and offering an alternative solution to policies.

 

[Scouse]

And as much as you think you can tell me I'm wrong and you're right, the fact is, neither of us know until the manifestos are released

You still don't get it do you

A manifesto, no matter who writes it and when, is bugger all to do with patriotism. Other than in your head.

 

[DaGaffer]

But that is entirely my point, Labour shouldn't shadow the Tories in order to become popular.

With Brexit coming up, the next election could very much shape Britain's future for a long time to come, and the options between Tories and (potentially, IMO, please don't shoot me) a Tory-Lite Labour party makes it a bit boring.

It seems to me that in UK politics the approach is OK we lost that election, so how can we copy the people that beat us so we have a better chance at the next election, rather than changing your ideas completely, and offering an alternative solution to policies.

Once again, nothing to do with patriotism. You keep trying to make the term synonymous with political affiliation and it isn't. Politicians certainly make the attempt to claim you're only patriotic if you subscribe to their brand of political bullshit, but that doesn't make it true, and one of the abiding failures of the left is to let the right "own" patriotism, when in fact they do nothing of the sort.

Labour moving away from the left is a completely separate issue and is also, frankly, absolutely inevitable; the only time Labour has proved to be electable in the last 30 years is when they occupied some Tory ground. The British public are small "c" conservative, and the naked incompetence and corruption of Cummings' Tories has created a window of opportunity for another go at "Tory-lite" style Labour; which you may hate, but electability is the only thing that matters, a lesson the Tories have always known, but Labour often forgets.