Politics Ed Miliband Living Wage

[MYstIC G]

No thanks. About 70% of journeys to work are under 6 miles. We need to get some of those people out of their cars and onto bicycles or public transport. That way, we free up the roads, put more money in people's pockets, make them fitter and healthier and consequently save money on the NHS. Making motoring cheaper is not a good idea, especially when you consider that motoring is heavily subsidised by the general public (including non-drivers).

You won't get people out of their cars though. People are lazy by nature. Want them out of their cars then you better invent teleporters that use less energy than cars.

 

[Scouse]

Agree with @Tom - plus the "money off" goods would not come back to consumers as reduced prices - they'd go to the shareholders in the form of increased profits. As shown time and again.

Increase the wages...

You won't get people out of their cars though

Disagree with that. Most of the people who I know that cycle to work say that petrol costs have contributed significantly to their decision - and the savings (along with their markedly better health) make them feel good.

If I ever get another contract within 15 miles of where I live then the only days you'd find me driving to work are when it's snowing - and not because I can't cycle in the snow (I love it) - I simply love driving in the snow more than cycling

 

[Raven]

No thanks. About 70% of journeys to work are under 6 miles. We need to get some of those people out of their cars and onto bicycles or public transport. That way, we free up the roads, put more money in people's pockets, make them fitter and healthier and consequently save money on the NHS. Making motoring cheaper is not a good idea, especially when you consider that motoring is heavily subsidised by the general public (including non-drivers).

About 100% of the things you buy are transported by road, also...last time I checked public transport used fuel rather than fairy dust.

...and without getting into the tedious cyclist debate. Our roads simply aren't designed for mass cycle use.

I don't think saving £10 on a tank of petrol would make much of a difference to Joe Public and the amount he drives, it would make a huge difference in production and distribution though. People use their cars because they want to use their cars, fuel cost doesn't really come into it.

 

[Tom]

About 100% of the things you buy are transported by road, also...last time I checked public transport used fuel rather than fairy dust.

I doubt fuel prices are a significant factor in delivery costs. 450 litres of diesel is about £630, a paltry figure when you estimate the value of the contents of a HGV trailer, which can be hundreds of thousands of pounds. Even VED for HGVs is irrelevant, considering that it's an annual cost applied to a vehicle that's probably on the road at least 300 days per year.

...and without getting into the tedious cyclist debate. Our roads simply aren't designed for mass cycle use.

They weren't designed for mass car use originally, either.

I don't think saving £10 on a tank of petrol would make much of a difference to Joe Public and the amount he drives, it would make a huge difference in production and distribution though. People use their cars because they want to use their cars, fuel cost doesn't really come into it.

No, people use their cars because they don't consider the alternatives worthwhile. Once you show someone that they can live without car ownership and have several thousand pounds more in their pocket each year, their views will change (as mine have over the years). All that's required is for governments to stop being afraid of motorists.

 

[Tom]

You won't get people out of their cars though. People are lazy by nature. Want them out of their cars then you better invent teleporters that use less energy than cars.

I don't see any teleporters there. I do, however, see a sensible transport policy that puts people before motor vehicles.

 

[Wij]

I doubt fuel prices are a significant factor in delivery costs. 450 litres of diesel is about £630, a paltry figure when you estimate the value of the contents of a HGV trailer, which can be hundreds of thousands of pounds. Even VED for HGVs is irrelevant, considering that it's an annual cost applied to a vehicle that's probably on the road at least 300 days per year.

Fuel costs drive up supermarket prices.

 

[rynnor]

...and without getting into the tedious cyclist debate. Our roads simply aren't designed for mass cycle use.

Too late it seems - for the record doubling fuel price would not alter my habits - it would still be cheaper to drive than use public transport for a family of 5 not to mention the lack of routes served by public transport and the uselessness of it out in teh stix.

 

[Raven]

I doubt fuel prices are a significant factor in delivery costs. 450 litres of diesel is about £630, a paltry figure when you estimate the value of the contents of a HGV trailer, which can be hundreds of thousands of pounds. Even VED for HGVs is irrelevant, considering that it's an annual cost applied to a vehicle that's probably on the road at least 300 days per year.

Fuel contributes a massive amount to the production and distribution of goods. Do you think everything just appears in a warehouse and gets distributed to your local Tesco? Do you have any idea what goes into getting the food into your ready meal? And not just food but everything else too. White goods, clothes, books, electricals. Everything travels extensively by road, several times over. With more and more shopping being done online the vehicles are getting smaller and smaller and carrying less and less...costing more and more.

They weren't designed for mass car use originally, either.

I think you will find the vast majority of roads, towns and cities are designed for vehicle use...unless you are talking about the handful of mud tracks about at the turn of the 19th century? Then yeah sure, they weren't designed for motor vehicles...or bikes for that matter...

No, people use their cars because they don't consider the alternatives worthwhile. Once you show someone that they can live without car ownership and have several thousand pounds more in their pocket each year, their views will change (as mine have over the years). All that's required is for governments to stop being afraid of motorists.

No, people use their cars because they want to get to work comfortably and in the least amount of time possible.

 

[Tom]

Fuel contributes a massive amount to the production and distribution of goods. Do you think everything just appears in a warehouse and gets distributed to your local Tesco? Do you have any idea what goes into getting the food into your ready meal? And not just food but everything else too. White goods, clothes, books, electricals. Everything travels extensively by road, several times over. With more and more shopping being done online the vehicles are getting smaller and smaller and carrying less and less...costing more and more.

"massive amount" [citation needed]

I think you will find the vast majority of roads, towns and cities are designed for vehicle use...unless you are talking about the handful of mud tracks about at the turn of the 19th century? Then yeah sure, they weren't designed for motor vehicles...or bikes for that matter...

I suggest you re-read my post. Most major urban highways (not motorways or trunk roads) are former turnpikes, built for horse and cart. They have since been converted for use by vehicles. This does not mean they cannot be converted again for the benefit of other road users. And I would point out that most roads were metalled at the insistence of cyclists, not drivers.

No, people use their cars because they want to get to work comfortably and in the least amount of time possible.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Hawkwind]

If they get paid for 36 hours they should do only 36 hours work.

LOL - As salaried staff you can expect no career progression with that kind of attitude. You want to do less work and more time off move to France!

 

[Tom]

LOL - As salaried staff you can expect no career progression with that kind of attitude. You want to do less work and more time off move to France!

Any organisation that expects you to work for free isn't an organisation deserving of your loyalty.

 

[rynnor]

Any organisation that expects you to work for free isn't an organisation deserving of your loyalty.

Tbh in any large organisation you can only expect loyalty from those around you - the company itself will still crap on you.

 

[Hawkwind]

Any organisation that expects you to work for free isn't an organisation deserving of your loyalty.

In my experience if you want to only do the minimum your job requires then you will not stand out in a large organisation. Going above and beyond, doing that little bit extra for the company/management team will always help you progress. If it doesn't then your management team are idiots. It obviously depends on the job type and company but has certainly been true for the 4 companies I worked at during my 27 year working life.

Its not just about getting paid for any extra hours you do past 5 pm. Modern work environment is one of flexibility. As a salaried not hourly paid employee your effectively paid to do a job which are generally task orientated and if that requires staying late to finish a report or taking a bit of work home then I personally have no issue with it. That being said it would totally depend on package and flexibility of the employer. Working late a couple of nights I really do not expect shit for coming in late the next day.

If you expect to get paid for every minute you work over normal hours then good luck to you finding a good employer than will do that, giving a decent package and good prospects of career development. Rare beast indeed!

 

[Jeros]

What makes it worse is many places no longer promote internally, they get their managers from mangement recruitment firms, hence you get the syndrome of managers who have no idea how the job the works. They survive for a year, maybe to and they they are sacked and replaced with another.

Hell you can even get places were managers are paid less than the workers.....

Pretty sad there are companies who are "proper" companies to work for but have worse internal structure than mac fucking donalds.

No I can't provide you with a referance in my old company Mr Employer, because there are no staff remaining who were there when I worked there....

 

[Access Denied]

In Tesco you have Customer Assistants, Team Leaders, duty/line managers, Assistant Store Manager and Store Manager. Between CA and Team Leader is what's called step up. Which is basically a CA who has been trained to run the store. (Might only be for Express format) When they're running shift, step ups get paid as much as Team Leaders and actually get paid for the hours they work, so if they have to work two extra hours on any given day when they're running things, they'll get paid for it. Whereas Team Leaders don't.

Tesco don't give a shit either. When they figure out the wages budget for a store, they don't factor in overtime to cover holidays. My store for instance has 23 staff, including the management team. Each member off staff has X number of days holiday. Express stores are in groups. My group has 14 stores and the overtime budget as of two weeks ago for the entire group was £1000 a week. That's stupidly low. So when we have someone on holiday, chances are there will be no overtime to cover the missing shift. The store down the road is in even worse shape, they're 1 on 1 (CA and shift runner) in the evenings for most days between now and the end of March.

This follows on what I was saying about having to work longer and not getting paid for it. For instance if we're 1 on 1 in my store, we very rarely finish when we're supposed to at 23:30. @Tom it's all well and good saying that you shouldn't work longer than you're getting paid for but in reality it's not possible. If we don't stay late and get everything done then it impacts on the morning shift, which in turn impacts on the evening shift the next night. Plus if we don't get everything done, the higher up in the company, who don't give a shit about the circumstances, go mad at the SM, who in turn has to have words with the shift runner whether they want to or not.

 

[Tom]

@Tom it's all well and good saying that you shouldn't work longer than you're getting paid for but in reality it's not possible. If we don't stay late and get everything done then it impacts on the morning shift, which in turn impacts on the evening shift the next night. Plus if we don't get everything done, the higher up in the company, who don't give a shit about the circumstances, go mad at the SM, who in turn has to have words with the shift runner whether they want to or not.

You're allowing management to kick the can further down the street. If you can't get the job done with what they give you, then say so. Go home the minute your hours are up. If that creates problems, so be it, but don't let anyone tell you that it's your fault. Tell them that the problems are because they're not spending enough money. Tell them that your time is valuable and that you will not work for free.

If any "manager" gave me shit for not working for free, I'd simply put a complaint in. And if that meant that my career at that employer was put in jeopardy, then so be it, because they're obviously a load of wankers anyway.

 

[Scouse]

This follows on what I was saying about having to work longer and not getting paid for it. For instance if we're 1 on 1 in my store, we very rarely finish when we're supposed to at 23:30. @Tom it's all well and good saying that you shouldn't work longer than you're getting paid for but in reality it's not possible

Yes it is.

If we had strong unions that wouldn't be possible. Tesco are making you work for free and giving that as profit to the shareholders.


Your work. Your time. Your money. >>>>> RICH PEOPLE.

 

[Bodhi]

Yes it is.

If we had strong unions that wouldn't be possible. Tesco are making you work for free and giving that as profit to the shareholders.

Your work. Your time. Your money. >>>>> RICH PEOPLE.

You're right, if we had strong unions that wouldn't be possible. The store would be shut due to a lack of electricity as the power companies would have walked out after being served the wrong biscuits (see the UK in the 1970s). Or had the shop closed as the owners wouldn't pay them the moon on a stick (see Unite @ Ineos).

 

[Scouse]

You're right, if we had strong unions that wouldn't be possible. The store would be shut due to a lack of electricity as the power companies would have walked out after being served the wrong biscuits (see the UK in the 1970s). Or had the shop closed as the owners wouldn't pay them the moon on a stick (see Unite @ Ineos).

Oh, the Unite at Ineos thing. Yep. The workers wanted the "moon on a stick" - wage rises in line with inflation and pension security - but they settled for wage cuts, job cuts and their pensions being fucked over.

It's OK tho - the owner is a billionaire. So he'll be fine.


Germany has *ridiculously* strong unions - they call them the "workers council". Always had no end of problems getting work done by the Germans.

Funny how that despite German workers getting an amazingly good deal compared to UK workers Germany is still the economic powerhouse of Europe?

Maybe they're not as debilitating to an economy as you've been led to believe? You've been brainwashed.

 

[Raven]

Oh, the Unite at Ineos thing. Yep. The workers wanted the "moon on a stick" - wage rises in line with inflation and pension security - but they settled for wage cuts, job cuts and their pensions being fucked over.
.

Actually they wanted to keep final salary pensions and above inflation pay rises, from a private company. They were then whipped up by a corrupt union rep.

 

[rynnor]

Actually they wanted to keep final salary pensions and above inflation pay rises, from a private company. They were then whipped up by a corrupt union rep.

It actually started when they sanctioned the union rep for carrying out political work in his work time. He then called a strike and it went from there.

 

[Wij]

Oh, the Unite at Ineos thing. Yep. The workers wanted the "moon on a stick" - wage rises in line with inflation and pension security - but they settled for wage cuts, job cuts and their pensions being fucked over.

It's OK tho - the owner is a billionaire. So he'll be fine.


Germany has *ridiculously* strong unions - they call them the "workers council". Always had no end of problems getting work done by the Germans.

Funny how that despite German workers getting an amazingly good deal compared to UK workers Germany is still the economic powerhouse of Europe?

Maybe they're not as debilitating to an economy as you've been led to believe? You've been brainwashed.

Germany benefits immensely from being in the Euro with Greece and Italy which drag the value of the Euro down and make it easier for them to export. If it wasn't for the Euro Germany wouldn't be half the powerhouse it is now.

The flip side is that the reverse is true for Greece etc and it totally fucks up their ability to compete. Hence they just borrowed money to pay for stuff instead.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Germany has *ridiculously* strong unions - they call them the "workers council". Always had no end of problems getting work done by the Germans.

Funny how that despite German workers getting an amazingly good deal compared to UK workers Germany is still the economic powerhouse of Europe?

Maybe they're not as debilitating to an economy as you've been led to believe? You've been brainwashed.

Maybe because Germany has just better unions?
I really cant talk for Germany or the UK but my experience with the Dutch ones left me sadly disappointed. The company I worked for closed and the only interest the union person had was for herself. She actually complained saying that the people who lost their job had no respect for her non-work. She accepted the company pay out from the start. No questions asked and yes the company did okay for the workers but she claimed it was the union who did stuff..

Sometimes the unions get too big and too used to "think" they own every company. That's when it goes to shit


Oh one little thing, union and council are not the same. Not in Germany and not in Holland. Council is where the management is also represented. They want the company to do good so that also benefits the workers. I thought the UK had something similar? If not than why not?? Better to have more people thinking about good ideas than a few..

 

[Bodhi]

Oh, the Unite at Ineos thing. Yep. The workers wanted the "moon on a stick" - wage rises in line with inflation and pension security - but they settled for wage cuts, job cuts and their pensions being fucked over.

It's OK tho - the owner is a billionaire. So he'll be fine.

Germany has *ridiculously* strong unions - they call them the "workers council". Always had no end of problems getting work done by the Germans.

Funny how that despite German workers getting an amazingly good deal compared to UK workers Germany is still the economic powerhouse of Europe?

Maybe they're not as debilitating to an economy as you've been led to believe? You've been brainwashed.

The average wage at Grangemouth was 52K iirc, with a final salary pension. Asking for a rise over and above inflation when the plant was losing 3 million quid a month on top of that IS asking for the moon on a stick. Typically leftist thinking, completely detached from reality, yet generous with other peoples money. The owner may well be a billionaire, however the people at the plant were already very well looked after, so I really fail to see how that's relevant?

 

[Aoami]

Germany benefits immensely from being in the Euro with Greece and Italy which drag the value of the Euro down and make it easier for them to export. If it wasn't for the Euro Germany wouldn't be half the powerhouse it is now.

The flip side is that the reverse is true for Greece etc and it totally fucks up their ability to compete. Hence they just borrowed money to pay for stuff instead.

Denmark has extremely powerful unions, ranks top 5 for population happiness every year, has great wages for everyone, free education including masters degrees, a good welfare system and is not part of the Euro.

 

[mr.Blacky]

The Danish people have a saving culture, same as Germans/Dutch. This has effects as well.

France has extremely powerful unions too but is really not doing that well. While they are in the Euro but doesn't explain Finland or the Netherlands, both are doing okay.

My guess is what Scouse mentioned the workers councils work well within Denmark. They are more specific to a certain company and will try to get the best out of and for company. The issue is more will those councils have enough power to change work style.

 

[rynnor]

The German workers have a totally different work ethic to the UK and lack the history of class warfare that poisons labour relations over here.

They are flexible and realistic and way more productive.

 

[Scouse]

They are flexible and realistic and way more productive.

You've never worked with Germans extensively I see.

Never.

 

[Embattle]

I know someone who was a GM at Tesco and he put it quite simply to me that the money was very good (80k) but the hours are hell at management level. He regularly did 16+ hour days and he said that if he did it then his management team under him was expected to do it, he said at times it wasn't worth even going home. A few years ago he moved to another retail company as a GM which resulted in a considerable pay drop but it was closer to his home with the amount of days and hours being normal, he said the ability to see his own family more and actually getting a life back outside work has certainly been worth the money drop.

As you may or may not know I don't like unions in general but I think they're even more useless after a recent friends experience with one, in essence as a bus driver he could never get in contact with the local representative who was actually based at the bus garage/storage he worked at and when he tried the main union phone number they told him to talk to local rep.

As to bicycles it would be nice if the government dumped VAT off them.

 

[Raven]

You've never worked with Germans extensively I see.

Never.

I deal with Germans all the time. They aren't efficient as everyone says but they are awkward, inflexible and pretty laid back with regards to deadlines.