DTX banned from entering BWQ3L

[bigfoot]

Eth my BW column was removed at my request btw, don't know why u assumed it was because i had attacked another columnist but as per usual you assumed wrongly. Just as when you assumed that it didn't matter dropping points in the BWQ3CTFL.

And as for the comment you alledge i said, if i did say it it was months ago, and probably in response to a barrage of abuse from yourself. I remember vividly having to sit in irc for an hour as you wibbled on trying to make out that calling somebody else boring and unoringal in a column update was a cardinal sin, only to see you then do probably the worst column update ever on BW as an attempt at parodying my column writing style.

If you want to know why i refused to reconsider any decision i suggest you speak to Zor, i don't think i should be saying in public why because DTX have suffered enough.

[Edited by bigfoot on 21-11-00 at 03:20]

 

[old.zor]

YAY! I say a few words of no harm and already its my fault...wow!

who's next? so far its gone through.. Whez.. then eth.. then Nem... then me!!...then......... dont tell me.. u will ruin the supprise..!

 

[Guest]

As a longtime Barrysworld member, I must admit to being somewhat disturbed by this thread.

It's obvious that the whole story hasn't been told on these pages, but the mere suggestion that there is a bias against players or clans because of personal prejudice is a charge that needs to be looked into at the highest levels.

At the higher levels of play there is always going to be friction, simply because of the competitiveness of individuals participating (I myself am a swamp dweller... and quite happy down there thx). The admins of such leagues surely take this into account and put personal dislikes to one side.

As a side note, Although I've never played against .E in any leagues (apologies, I've never heard of DTX ), Ethereal and Whez have always struck me as decent sorts.

 

[old.Ethereal.E]

I don't suppose you remember why I quit MY column Bif? It was because of the increasing turmoil in the private BW channel, with you as the main cause. Even when I tried to get Manta out of a fight with you, you started slagging me off. But I'm not here to discuss my shit with you. After all, I have left DTX.

IF, according to you, your reasons for refusal of DTX are just
and
IF, I am one of the major causes of the refusal
THEN, I suggest someone neutral from BW looks into the matter. Many people have expressed in this thread that they at least doubt the neutrality of your judgement in this matter. If you have nothing to lose and if you are righteous, then why not let a neutral BW crew member decide on the matter?

 

[old.Maverick]

I agree,

It seems completely unreasonable to prevent a clan from joining because the head admin doesn't like two of their players, especially when neither of those players have ever been banned from any other BW league and are well respected in Europe.

This decision smacks of personal bias which doesn't have a place in a league that is run by a money making organisation.

I can also draw large parallels with Predsters comments on Bigfoot failing to produce evidence when challenged. Quite often he's claimed to have logs/mails which back up nasty and unjust things he has said, but always refuses to show them.

Just my $0.02

// maverick

Demonic Core
http://www.DemonicCore.com

 

[bigfoot]

I've explained my reasons for refusing entry to DTX to the necessary people within BW and ultimately as i am head of organised gaming its my job to call it. If BW become unhappy with the job i am doing i will be sacked, so this is motivation enough to make decisions rationally without bias.

Whether you think this decision displays personal bias or not is of no interest to me really, i made it in the best interests of the league in my opinion, other people may have made a different decision or not. As i run the league thats my responsibility, to use my experience and judgment to make these decisions which are sometimes not going to make everyone happy. If you do not like the way the league is run then you can leave as nobody forces you to stay or compete in it.

And the reason i don't back this up with excerpts from private mails is because they are that, private. Some of the things mentioned in the mails exchanged between myself and members of DTX are confidential in the business sense of the word, and the main reason i have stood my ground over this decision is also confidential imo at this current moment in time.

One other thing Mav, if i am so "personally biased" can you explain my decision to award DC's webbie the Best Clan Webpage of last season despite the fact that its been openly critical of myself and things i have written elsewhere? This was a decision which ultimately came down to me on a shortlist of four, funny how with me being such a biased person i decide to give you the award.

 

[old.[NC]Sturty]

Originally posted by Predster
Hi.

Well seeing as you are part of the bw setup - you probably would say that - and tbh I would't expect you to say anything else. But I feel this is an important issue, so I will paste 2 emails from Bigfoot:

[8/11/00]
Not yet, this week saw the first games of the season so after tonight
(wednesdays) games i'll see if there are any slots open. I have allready put
the first clan on the waiting list in replacing a clan who dropped out over
the weekend, so there will be other spaces i think.

[16/11/00]
I did have a space i was going to offer to you, but after a typically silly
reception in your channel and seeing that Ethereal and Whez (two players who
we have had problems with in the past seasons of other q3 leagues) have
joined i cannot enter you into the league this sesaon because i feel it
would be a complete waste of time. Sorry, gl in other leagues.


The only thing that happened between those 2 emails was 2 players from a top CTF clan in europe joining DTX.
Surley if bigfoot had concerns - he could have spoken to me?. Isn't that the 'fair' thing to do?. How the hell could he know my squad situation without asking the clan leader, isn't that his job?.

Predster

Not wanting to be pendantic or whatever, but from that copy/paste of bifs email, I can't see where it says your banned. Just says he ccan't enter you into the league this season.

Oh and if I went to a channel to offer someone a space and got a cack welcome / abuse or whatever (I dunno, I wasn't there) then I'd have personally told you to 'shove it up your arse' rather than send you a fairly polite email. (judging by that excert).

Sturty

 

[old.Maverick]

One other thing Mav, if i am so "personally biased" can you explain my decision to award DC's webbie the Best Clan Webpage of last season despite the fact that its been openly critical of myself and things i have written elsewhere? This was a decision which ultimately came down to me on a shortlist of four, funny how with me being such a biased person i decide to give you the award.

Where did I say you were biased against us? Guilty conscience?

I also disagree with your stance on confidentiality. If you are going to throw allegations around at people then you should be prepared to back it up with evidence. If you can't do this without breaking confidence then you should keep quiet until you have some other way to prove it.


// Maverick

Demonic Core
http://www.DemonicCore.com

 

[Chameleon]

From an outsiders perspective, some of these decisions do look slighted by personal opinion, which should be of great concern to anyone in the leagues. I hope I am wrong.

I can't see why DTX can't just be given a go. Anything that happened in the past, happened in the past.

Furthermore, if admins and other BW ppl use the "no abuse will be tolerated" rule, this can be exploited to the N'th degree. Online gaming is an immotive issue for people who compete in it and even as league admins you have to expect to get jibed, wound up, etc like the rest of us. League admins cannot expect their status to offer them some kind of anominity from abuse. They just have to be grown up about it, not take the 'holyer than thou' approach.

Ch@m

 

[old.Necro]

While BF is far from the icon of tact and underreacting, i think that it is not (or is more than just) bias.

 

[old.FlameTop]

Abuse is one aspect of the game I do have strong feelings about.

Abuse in IRC, emails, web pages etc etc is one thing. But I have always felt that on game servers in league matches is not the place for it. The early days of the QuakeWorld league scene taught me that abuse on servers escalates and causes rifts and feuds. This can happen even between normally friendly clans. What starts as 'banter' can so quickly deteiriorate into fierce resentment. For this reason I do, and will always, push very hard for the 'no-abuse' rules to be enforced in league games.

This is not to say the odd 'ffs' or 'wtf' is lept upon. As always the match admin must temper the rules with common sense.

I know you were taling about IRC abuse, I just wanted to make my stance clear before people start telling me I should be able to 'take abuse' in matches.

FT

 

[Chameleon]

No, you are absolutely right FT.
I would not suggest for one second that abuse should occur in the game, between admin and player, or player and player. When a league game is on, players should be there to play, joke about with friends in other teams maybe and be entitled to enjoy themselves when playing the game they love.
Just wanted to clarify that one

Based upon only what I've read here, I wish that BW could just allow DTX the chance to compete. If they mess it up again, ban the players involved and be done with it.
I realise you want to avoid disruption of the league, for the benefit of the other clans, but unless I am competely mislead on this one, DTX seem to be wanting a chance to prove themselves, not just as good gamers, but as reasonable people.

Dats just what I think anyway

Ch@m

 

[old.Shill]

Well personally if I went into a channel to see if the clan wanted a place in my league and was given abuse by a few *opped* people in that channel when other teams want in as well, then they would have no chance!

Bigfoot is the head admin clans should respect his decision and not post on a message board like a childish schoolkid looking for attention.

If you have a problem with a decision it should be mailed to the head admin and then that correspondence should be kept privately between both player and admin not posted up on a public message forum.

 

[old.Predster]

<SoWhat>
It's obvious that the whole story hasn't been told on these pages, but the mere suggestion that there is a bias against players or clans because of personal prejudice is a charge that needs to be looked into at the highest levels
>
Yup

<Mav>
I can also draw large parallels with Predsters comments on Bigfoot failing to produce evidence when challenged. Quite often he's claimed to have logs/mails which back up nasty and unjust things he has said, but always refuses to show them.
>

Thats one of the things that surprised me, I seriously expected him to DCC/mail the log to me, but he refused. His reason was that DTX were not part of the BWQ3L.
Hmmm, personaly, I don't how see you can hold to that comment Bigfoot, then say you are doing things for the good of the league. Keeping information from a clan leader does not help the quake community, the league (not just the BWQ3L), and most importantly, the clan he plays for. So as far as you are concerned regards whez, he is a trouble maker. Head of bw gaming 'dropping rumours' about a players is at best childish, and at worst unhealthy for the league or community.

<Bigfoot>
If you do not like the way the league is run then you can leave as nobody forces you to stay or compete in it.
>

True, but we can try to make it a league that we (DTX) would like to compete in, unbiased, and fair. The BWQ3L and other Barrysworld leagues are not private clubs, thery are open to the public, which is why there are rules on the relative websites. We use these rules as a guidelines on how we should behave. Considering Whez and Ethereal were not banned, according to your rules, DTX should have been given a slot, even with those two players activly playing in the BWQ3L. Maybe the situation at Barrysworld has got so that the league can no longer be 'under the control' of one man. Why not have an elected player from each team as a spokesman, exchanging views on how the leagues are developing, by email. allmost self regulating, with Bigfoot overseeing it. (See, I'm not that nasty am I dave

<Sturty>
Not wanting to be pendantic or whatever, but from that copy/paste of bifs email, I can't see where it says your banned. Just says he ccan't enter you into the league this season
>

The fact is we were refused entry to a Barrysworld League, wether we were banned for 12 months or for one season means nothing. If Bigfoot applies a ban for one season, why should I or anybody else belive he will 'lift that ban' in the future. I have asked him many times, on what grounds can DTX be let into the BWQ3L. Each time his answer is different. Either its because of Whez and Ethereal, or 'old DTX players' acting like peons in a few matches years ago, which quite frankly is pantz, as those players are no longer in DTX and as I have said before, he should apply the rules on the BWQ3L website. Go read the bit about 'abusive players being banned for the next few games'. Note that it says abusive players being banned, and not the whole clan, and for a few days, not an undefined time period, decided on the whim of one man. Surley you see I have a right to argure for what I see is right?.

<Sturty>
Oh and if I went to a channel to offer someone a space and got a cack welcome / abuse or whatever (I dunno, I wasn't there) then I'd have personally told you to 'shove it up your arse' rather than send you a fairly polite email. (judging by that excert).
>

We applied like any other clan, and expected to be treated the same. If bigfoot can't take a bit of humourous banter from Nash, but be happy to take part in the same type of exchange in #barrysworld and other channels, he needs to get a more portable sense of humour, and not be selective when it suits him. What Ethereal said to bigfoot is actually very uninteresting, and was purley bad blood, as you can see from the emails above. But do you really expect these two people to be all smiles when one thinks the other is wrong and vice versa?.
I publicly aplolgised to Bigfoot in a previous thread, for anything that was said that may have offended him. This is not an issue about Bigfoots ability to run Gaming @ Barrysworld, which I'm sure he does very well, or how he admins a league, which again I have praised as many others have. Its about fairness. Its as simple as that.


<Mav>
I also disagree with your stance on confidentiality. If you are going to throw allegations around at people then you should be prepared to back it up with evidence. If you can't do this without breaking confidence then you should keep quiet until you have some other way to prove it.
>

Yup


<Ch@meleon>
Furthermore, if admins and other BW ppl use the "no abuse will be tolerated" rule, this can be exploited to the N'th degree. Online gaming is an immotive issue for people who compete in it and even as league admins you have to expect to get jibed, wound up, etc like the rest of us. League admins cannot expect their status to offer them some kind of anominity from abuse. They just have to be grown up about it, not take the 'holyer than thou' approach.
>

The problem for me was that I was un-aware of the problems between Ethereal/Whez and Bigfoot, otherwise I would have got assurances from them both that they would not bring old issues into DTX. I was not given the chance. I should have been.


<Necro>
While BF is far from the icon of tact and underreacting, i think that it is not (or is more than just) bias
>

Whatever you opinion or views - I respect them, tho i do dissagree with them on this issue


<Ch@meleon>
Based upon only what I've read here, I wish that BW could just allow DTX the chance to compete. If they mess it up again, ban the players involved and be done with it.
I realise you want to avoid disruption of the league, for the benefit of the other clans, but unless I am competely mislead on this one, DTX seem to be wanting a chance to prove themselves, not just as good gamers, but as reasonable people.
>

I can't add to this really - my fingers are bleeding


<Shill>
Bigfoot is the head admin clans should respect his decision and not post on a message board like a childish schoolkid looking for attention.
If you have a problem with a decision it should be mailed to the head admin and then that correspondence should be kept privately between both player and admin not posted up on a public message forum.
>

So anybody posting their view on a public forum is a school kid seeking attention?. Considering I spent most of the following nights speaking to Bigfoot in private DCC chat, and also mailing him with my views, the forum was the last place I turned to. Mainly because I felt it was an issue that was important enough to DTX's future.
I don't know why you are so irrated by somebody elses opinions, and what difference does it make if they were opped?, sorry but thats irelevant.

As you may have read, Ethereal has left DTX. I can't see any reason now why myself and Bigfoot can't at least seek assurances from eachother that this issue is over and we wish to enter the BWQ3L. And if there are 'any other issues', we could talk them over. The only reason I am fighting for entry into the BWQ3L, is because we (DTX) think it is one of the best run leagues around. Nuff said.

I wub you really bif

Predster


[Edited by Predster on 21-11-00 at 20:52]

 

[old.zor]

Well this is getting a bit silly now I think, it has been going on far too long now, - I guess that this wont help no matters, we just have to accept his final choice, if its a NO then fine, we will pack our bags and go other places, but if its a YES then great we can carry on playing as normal. - but really, there is no right or wrong just a few gamers that once had a few disagreements that he cant seem to forget about. fair enuff if thats the way he deals with things then so be it.. but there are other leagues to join and other games to play..

I have stressed my concerns why we should be allowed to play adn so haev you all, (thanks) but I just want to play and have fun not to sit here and read debates about our future...

we keep forgetting. its just a game... right?

-zor

 

[old.Predster]

Yeah I agree.

You have your reasons Zor, and I respect them m8.
As far as DTX is concerned, we still wish to play in the BWQ3L.



Predster.

 

[bigfoot]

"The BWQ3L and other Barrysworld leagues are not private clubs, thery are open to the public, which is why there are rules on the relative websites."

That is not correct. The BWQ3L is easier to get into than say the EuroCup invitational tourney, but while both are "open" to the public to view, clans still have to go through some form of vetting or procedure to get in. Much the same way as if your out on the town and you want to get into a nightclub, you don't always just get let in and sometimes people will get turned back. Do not confuse something thats free to enter with something thats open to everyone.

 

[old.Predster]

>That is not correct. The BWQ3L is easier to get into than say the EuroCup invitational tourney, but while both are "open" to the public to view, clans still have to go through some form of vetting or procedure to get in
>

Maybe. But the fact remains, you have rules, apply them.

>Do not confuse something thats free to enter with something thats open to everyone.
>

So in other words, you pick and choose the teams you wish to be in the BWQ3L, without adhering to the rules on the website?. Clear case of prejudice I think.
This has probably gone on to long now without intervention from anybody within Barrysworld.
I am sorry to say I have lost interest in the BWQ3L.

Predster.






[Edited by Predster on 22-11-00 at 10:46]

 

[bodhi]

It *is* only a game mind.......


Anyway cant you lot bog off back to the Q3 Forum and leave us to Moo/abuse/talk shit in peace?

 

[kryt]

Moo?

Frankly, this is a topic i've tried to refrain from posting in, a lot of you will already know why, regarding my adminning traits. However, it needs to be ascertained that bias towards certain people IS something that needs to be taken care of, I know, due to having abused rules like this myself.
Bif's judgement, imo, is sane, calculated and does not seem to have a decision made with the aid of bias tagging alongside. For instance, I am a very active admin in an IRC bot channel. If I get a request for a bot... I go into their channel, assure they are taking full regard of the rules we administer.. if they don't, I do not give them a bot. If I get snide remarks, I don't give them a bot.
Ok, it's not a great paradigm, but I think you can see what I am getting at, there are parallels that can be drawn. Take in mind all the televised/magazine competitions etc - the "higher" media forms. There is always this one phrase ruling which applies here too.
"The judges decision is final"
It may even be on the league rules website, but I have not personally checked, nor do I care to do so unless my Q3 clan decide to partake in it.
Predster, in this thread, and in the emails you have posted on here, Bigfoot has been cool, calm, and understanding, whilst still mantaining his composure and sense of reality. Clans and their leaders/representatives should be responsible for the actions of their team, to keep them in order, and make sure this sort of thing does not happen.

I pray that this matter is sorted out and drawn to a close, I personally do not feel it was a worth messageboard thread anyway, in fact I am somewhat suprised nobody has made any jesting posts, however it is a matter, as was said previously by someone, that should be kept between the clan, its representative, and the league head admin Bigfoot.

Regards

 

[bigfoot]

From what was said to me before hand this forum thread was intended to drum up substantial public support for DTX to "force" me to let them in.

 

[old.Shill]

Exactly and thats why its so sad!

Insecurity I think so.

 

[cenobite]

STFU

Why dont all you moaning twats just shut up and stop bleating. If you have a problem raise it privately with bigfoot. If you do not have satisfaction then take it to his boss, since BW is a business this is not a problem. If you still get no joy then join another league. They obviously do not want you to join if both steps failed.

As for this whole DTX/4k hatred why not just stop talking bollocks. All ages ago in past and Bif will not have held a grudge. If he had held a grudge against 4k like everyone presumes would he help 4k by accomodating their requests? (as he does with other clans).

Maybe people should stop throwing about childish petty accusations and try and have 'grown up' conversations? Fucking hell get those toys, put them back in your cot and start again using only facts and reasoning. Stooping to accusations of grudges will not work (as has been shown).

 

[old.Predster]

Me again

<Kryten>
Take in mind all the televised/magazine competitions etc - the "higher" media forms. There is always this one phrase ruling which applies here too.
"The judges decision is final"
>

It may be final - but it does not make it a correct decision.


<Kryten>
It may even be on the league rules website, but I have not personally checked, nor do I care to do so unless my Q3 clan decide to partake in it.
>

So you check the rules, just to make sure they are not applied?.
According to the rules, we should be allowed to enter, how hard is it to understand that.


<Kryten>
Clans and their leaders/representatives should be responsible for the actions of their team, to keep them in order, and make sure this sort of thing does not happen.
>

You would think so yes. He clearly should have spoken to me first. My whole point in this thread is that I was not given the chance to take action against these people, Bigfoot did it for me, by not allowing DTX into the league. That quite simply - is wrong.

<Kryten>
I pray that this matter is sorted out and drawn to a close, I personally do not feel it was a worth messageboard thread anyway
>

1053 views, and 52 posts, suggests otherwise.


<Bigfoot>
From what was said to me before hand this forum thread was intended to drum up substantial public support for DTX to "force" me to let them in.
>

It was my decision alone to post on this forum, so who did you speak to, who could have told you what I as 'intending' to do?. The rumour-mill is in full swing I see.


<Ceno>
As for this whole DTX/4k hatred why not just stop talking bollocks. All ages ago in past and Bif will not have held a grudge
>

I think you just dissed bif - I'm not sure tho

It helps if you read the posts Ceno.
I have presented nothing but the facts, if people don't like them, they don't have to read them. If you can't be honest with yourself, you don't have to be dishonest here. I asume your imature post (imo) was to bring the whole thing down yo your level, you failed.


<Ceno>
Maybe people should stop throwing about childish petty accusations and try and have 'grown up' conversations
>

I tried that, suggesting DTX could be allowed to play now that Ethereal has left DTX. He said No. As pointed out by others throughout this post, all we want to do is play Q3 in the BWQ3L. That such a crime?.


<Ceno>
They obviously do not want you to join if both steps failed.
>

Ok I give up?.


<Shill.>
Exactly and thats why its so sad!
Insecurity I think so.
>

Whatever



Predster


ps. I allways feel it best to have a broad view of things don't you Athena?

http://www.quakenation.com/
http://www.demoniccore.com/
http://www.ukgamer.net/

DTX a popular theme I see.



[Edited by Predster on 22-11-00 at 21:48]

 

[athena]

Oh I was wondering when my name would pop up
I did infact say to BigFoot to give DTX a chance and from what I've read in this thread I understand that another Clan replaced DTX in a clan who had pulled. I was there in #barrysworld when this was originally discussed remember
Im not sure what the big deal is anymore

ath

 

[old.Predster]

Hi.

The big deal for me anyway, is that DTX are not allowed to play in the BWQ3L, for all the wrong reasons.

I only mentioned your name because I noticed you had added a headline on QN. Thought it wise to point out there were other articles on DTX on other websites. I did mail you if you remember, to thank you for putting an few lines about DTX recruiting on QN.

Nowt wrong with that girl

Predster

 

[old.Nasher]

I got a question for u biffy me old buddy

Just summit that occured to me its none of my business now anyway so im not gonna get involved anymore, just one of those weird thoughts i have in the shower ;p

Ok, none of DTX players on their list is banned right?
so they could all join other clans and play right?
but not together?
so if they went and all joined the same clan, say xx, then would xx get banned for having that selection of players in their squad? and if not, how can u justify banning DTX on those grounds? sure, i know, thered be other xx players but u`d still have the "cheats and troublemakers" or whatever u wanna call em.

Just hit me thats all
<watches bif cleverly ignore this post>

Nasher
l33t and getting l33t3r all the time

 

[old.Predster]

Hi

Well, seems there is nothing I can really do about DTX so I give up.

Whatever Bigfoots decision on this matter is, and its quite clear its that DTX will not play in the BWQ3L, we will accept it.

Cheers for the respone, good and bad


Predster


"If you have powerful people behind you, it dosn't make you right, just means you don't have to admit when your wrong"

 

[kryt]

<Predster>

"If you have powerful people behind you, it dosn't make you right, just means you don't have to admit when your wrong"

No.
I've admitted myself to be wrong so many times I can't be arsed counting the reasons, with regards to my adminning.
Sorry to have to patronise what is being put down here, but that was rather a harsh statement. People never like admitting they are wrong. However, I do feel, like I said before : decisions are there to be made, hearts are always broken in desicion making, and it had to be yours.
Life is tough, that's how it works out.

Hopefully shall be seeing you next season though.

Regards

 

[bigfoot]

You've been saying whatever the response you will accept it for days now, but show no signs of this actually being the case. It would be a refreshing change for you to once stick to your word.

Nash - if i saw that happening i would probably disallow them from joining. Obviously i can't stop them if they decided to use other names, but then that would be making one of my points for me not allowing them to enter if they chose to do it.

I have also not said that they would be disallowed automatically from entering future seasons, if they want to re-apply for next season they can. Whether or not they will be allowed to enter is another thing entirely, but would depend on the circumstances at that point in time.

It's been interesting to see some of the comments here and elsewhere, but ultimately it makes no difference to the decision as i am not running a league in the best interests of the updaters of a couple of websites, i'm running it in the best interests of the clans that play in it and BarrysWorld itself. Throughout this discussion i have tried to avoid sinking to the level employed by some of DTX's clan members and other people because it's just not worth it. I have no interest in getting into a slanging battle with whoever because i have more constructive things to do with my time.