DTX banned from entering BWQ3L

[old.Predster]

Why have DTX been banned from the BWQ3L?
Because Bigfoot says he has a 'problem' with two of our players. These two players are NOT banned from entering another Barrysworld League and play for a top CTF clan - Explain that one to me.
All I wanted was DTX to be allowed a chance - but Bigfoot has personal issues with DTX - should this, one mans view, be enough to bar a group of players from entering a league?.
This is not about Bigfoots ability to Admin the league which he does well - but about fairplay. Why the hell should we suffer because a few players acted like idiots in the past?.

Predster

[Edited by Predster on 19-11-00 at 05:12]

 

[old.Davehart]

I'm sure they were banned for a good reason.

 

[old.FlameTop]

The head-admins role in a league covers many areas. Just one of these are the decisions that are taken for the good of the league as a whole. I would think its not that Bigfoot has any 'personal issues' regarding DTX, rather he has take the position of what is best for the league.

The other role in which the head-admin is a vital post, is the 'buck stops here' mode. Sometimes the decisions we have to make are pretty hard, but its vital that there is someone making such decisions.

I have no idea what DTX or some of its members did for their entry to be refused, but I'm sure Bif has or is happy to explain in private the reasons for the decision.

FT

 

[old.Predster]

Hi.

Well seeing as you are part of the bw setup - you probably would say that - and tbh I would't expect you to say anything else. But I feel this is an important issue, so I will paste 2 emails from Bigfoot:

[8/11/00]
Not yet, this week saw the first games of the season so after tonight
(wednesdays) games i'll see if there are any slots open. I have allready put
the first clan on the waiting list in replacing a clan who dropped out over
the weekend, so there will be other spaces i think.

[16/11/00]
I did have a space i was going to offer to you, but after a typically silly
reception in your channel and seeing that Ethereal and Whez (two players who
we have had problems with in the past seasons of other q3 leagues) have
joined i cannot enter you into the league this sesaon because i feel it
would be a complete waste of time. Sorry, gl in other leagues.


The only thing that happened between those 2 emails was 2 players from a top CTF clan in europe joining DTX.
Surley if bigfoot had concerns - he could have spoken to me?. Isn't that the 'fair' thing to do?. How the hell could he know my squad situation without asking the clan leader, isn't that his job?.

Predster

 

[old.Messiah]

Doesnt make sense does it? Can play for one clan in one league but cant play for another in a diff league. Hmmm just let them in and stop being an arse

 

[old.Predster]

FlameTop.

The two players in question were not in DTX when they had their exchange of words. So this is about them, thats quite plain to see. As I said many times, why didn't he speak to me about it?, all I get is an email saying get lost. What the hell have DTX done thats so bad to be banned? nothing.

I don't know how obvious it has to be, before its seen that this is Bigfoot using 'Head of Organized Gaming @ Barrysworld' as a big stick to beat ppl with. I keep hearing the phrase 'for the good of the league', seems its used to back up a decision based on all the wrong reasons, if there reasons at all which there not.
We want entry to the League and deserve to play. We have a website, full squad, and are keen to play in the BWQ3L.
The only thing stopping us is bigfoots obssesion with abusing his power.

Predster




[Edited by Predster on 19-11-00 at 14:11]

 

[old.FlameTop]

Well

>Well seeing as you are part of the bw setup - you probably would say that

I do some voluntary work for BW true. I receive no payment and am not a bw staffer. I was speaking from my experience of being a head-admin.

>Messiah: Doesnt make sense does it? Can play for one clan in one league but cant play for another in a diff league

If the players in question are Whez and Ethereal, neither of them play in a CTF team in the BWQ3CTFL AKAIK. E did enter the first season if I recall, but withdrew as they did not like the league format at that time.

I have no idea what may have occured between bif and yourselves, I was just stating my point of view.

FT

 

[TedTheDog]

Oh, can we all play this pasting contents of emails game?

 

[old.sidders]

i dont know much about the whez/eth situ, but from my past experiences in QW with bif admining then, he still hasnt forgotten what happened back then with him/dtx, mebe still bitter in some way.. i dunno, but it seems he's using his position to suit himself. i seriously doubt this would happen with any other team.

 

[old.Predster]

Ted

Whats wrong with showing Bigfoots reason for not allowing DTX into the league?.
It's not like I was pasting a confidential document, I was giving the reasons why DTX were banned from the BWQ3L, easier if I pasted it, than to type it.

Anywayz - seeing as we (DTX) did not get much support from anyone other than friends, we may as well say the decision of one man, with a history of persecution (4K?) has managed to screw antother clan to the wall. I Hope he has room for one more Trophy.

I will say that Bigfoot should have spoken to me and not mailed me with the bad news, the interesting thing is, how did he know my squad for that league?, how did he know Whez and Ethereal were not going to play in the BWRA3L?.
He didnt, maybe he needs to read the rules on the league websites a bit more, its obvious he doesn't understand them, just manipulates them. IMO This is a shameful decision of which I hope you are proud of, utterly pathetic.

Quite simply, he is wrong.

Predster....signing off.

(One thing I just thought of, seems as if its ok to forget Bigfoots allmost single-handed obsession with destroying 4K (including nationalistic comments and unjustified personal attacks on players) because it happened a while ago, but it's ok to rake up a clans past history (which is no different compared to most of the current clans competing in leagues) to use against them....ouch?)

 

[bigfoot]

Bye Pred.

One thing to consider on your way out the door is that you yourselves won trophys in leagues which i had been running at the time, as have 4K. This is of course due to my "single-handed obsession with destroying" both yourselves and 4K. I must not be trying hard enough or something. Or maybe you are just wrong.

 

[shabazz]

ohhhh bitchy!

come on, don't leave it at this - it's only getting warm so far ;o)

maybe he's just not letting you in cos even if you said you wouldn't let the other doods play they could just change their names or summin.....

anyay q3 is pish, q2 was the real king. That and CS of course.... ;o)

overall, he must have a good reason!

 

[old.Predster]

Hi.

I never said you were trying to destroy DTX, your reading skillz (I point to the barrysworld league rules as an example, where we meet all criteria) are in need of an upgrade - as is your memory regarding 4k.
I said you had screwed us to the wall, using completely incorrect reasons to do so:

1)Whez and Eth could have played for DTX in the BWRA3L - and not the BWQ3L, you didn't know that because you didn't ask me. Even so, you could have spoken to me and got assurances that I would take action against them if they were to do something similar while in the BWQ3L. Discipline in a clan is down to the leader, not Admin.

2)DTX have according to you a chequred history. Over a year ago a few members acted like idiots during a match, and a player was found to be aliasing. Nemesis was kicked out of DTX when ppl were made aware of this, in fact I think DTX were the last people to find out, but we still suffer for someone elses actions.


The fact that 4K and DTX won titles while you were admin means nothing. As I said, IMO you do an excellent job as Admin as do the others.
I suggest you cast your mind back to your own bw column re the 4K issue, most of the quake community can remember how you treated them, why can't you?


Predster

[It was a revolving door btw]

 

[shabazz]

hehe getting warmer ;o)

 

[old.Predster]

Shabazz

Something like 'innocent until proven guilty' springs to mind. This is DTX year 2000, not DTX with aliasing morons years ago. We just want to play coz we enjoy Q3(Gasp!).

I would have been insulted had anyone else but Bigfoot assumed I would cheat, with him its second nature.

Predster

 

[stu]

stop being such a party pooper dave

 

[raw.]

hmmm

Sorry bigfoot, i dont know you but i do know DTX, and after reading through this thread, and speaking with Pred personally, i can only assume you are very wrong and acting very silly, to punish DTX for something that happen'd over a year ago with 2 players that werent even in DTX at the time is pathetic, the fact that the two players in question are allowed to play in other BW Leagues, also indicates its a personal issue rather than a barrysworld issue.

I cant understand why you did not even speak with pred first before banning them.. as pred has said 'innocent till proven guilty' would it not be fair to allow DTX into the league on the basis that, should there be a problem, THEN take action, rather than ban them immediately ? I myself play for a new clan, which we have had a fair few friendlies with DTX, and had found them to be a friendly group of lads, i also played in [iQ] with Pred, and hes a decent bloke, so excpecting him and his clan to fool around in your league without even giving them a fair go, imo is pathetic.

Surely anyone else reading this thread can see, its not right! fs say something its had enough view it.

 

[old.Predster]

Ta Chris1.

Well, in the original mail from Bigfoot, he only sited one reason for not allowing DTX into the BWQ3L, and that was Whez and Ethereal. Several hours after I got the mail I spoke to Biggy in #Barrysworld, and asked him if the 2 players in question were banned from any other league - he said No. - I have the log if required.

It seems if your first reason fails, you can create as many as you want. The league is run bu rules, and we all know how Bigfoot likes to stick to them, so explain this:

>
Please do not abuse the Admins or Other Players. Each Admin and player has a different tolerance level, so if you think it might be abusive it probably is. Should any player act in an unsportsmanlike manner he or she will be warned, then removed from the server and reported to the chief admin. In all likelihood abusive players will receive a ban from the clans next few games, to be determined by the chief admin. If an Admin makes a mistake please point it out in a pleasant manner so that it may be rectified, we are all human so please treat us as such
>

DTX have been banned for a season or as you said to me 'for the forseeable future, I think the rules above, state otherwise don't you?.
And for those who have said ' I'm sure you were banned for a good reason', you must have missed the earlier post from me with Bigfoots original email. I think it's called turning a blind eye, or words to that effect.
All DTX want is fairplay.

Predster.

 

[bigfoot]

Pred, there is an unwritten rule which applies to any league which is that decisions must be made by the people who run the league in the leagues best interest. For example, say the servers went to shit one evening and everyone pinged 300 to them, you would expect me to postpone all the games yes? Just because there is no written rule saying "If servers go shit all games should be postponed" doesn't mean that we can't (and have not done in the past) make that decision.

That is our perogative because after all these are leagues which we run, any clan entering the league has the right to expect fairness but only if they behave in a manner which deserves that. Your members actions before and since this decision clearly indicate that it was the right one.

 

[old.Ethereal.E]

The problem here isn't that you would or would not have the right to make that decision. If you run a league, you are allowed to make decisions since you put in all the work. However, as a head admin of a league you do require some degree of neutrality towards clans that perhaps you don't like personally. I myself am the Supervisor of the CB CTF cup and I don't like some of the clans in my league either. But I would never let that show in my decisions, unless they make a lot of fuss.

The issue here is that most of the people here think that you have let your obvious hatred towards Whez, me and Clan E make the difference in your decision. As Pred stated earlier, your attitude seemed to have suddenly changed when you heard Whez and me were in the clan.

Even though I am of course not neutral in this matter, I can say that Clan E has an excellent reputation concerning politeness both inside and outside of matches. From what matches I've played with DTX they are no different from E. Even though some clans we practiced against were provocative, all remained calm and gentle. I simply cannot see what possible harm DTX's joining could cause.

If your reasons are really as just as you claim, then I suggest that a neutral Barrysworld representative (perhaps Speccy) looks into the case and decides on this matter. If you are right, then you have nothing to fear or lose...

 

[old.zor]

Hmm

I agree with Ethereal here, Ok so bigfoot may have a personal dislike to us due to some of our past members and some new, however a personal dislike effects those involved and not a entire clan of people that are keen to play the game that we all enjoy as a "team".. - but I think its got to the point where a person who has a non-biased opinion should at least cast there 2-pence worth into the decision.

At the end of the day, we as a Q3 clan are no differant from the next, we play we have fun, and want that extra challenge, this is the way it has been , and always be, we are all adults and not little children that he seems to think we are, or have had in the past, but I just wish that he would forget the past and think of the new.

for example, I stand boldy here, but since the "new" DTX Crew have been playing together and the clans that we have played againt can all vouch for us that we are and have always remained polite and frendly either at a win or a loss. - so how does this stop us playing a good match in the leauges?

It all makes sence really, never judge a book by its cover..

-Zor-

 

[old.Predster]

Hi.

We are not talking about pinging 300 to a server, we are talking about the reason you gave to me in your email for refusing entry to DTX due to Whez and Ethereal joining us.
See above, or your sent mail folder.

Nobody expects you to have a rule written for every eventuality, but if a rule is there in black and white for clan leaders to use as a guideline, you must apply them.

The players acted like idiots in QW agreed, but why do you expect the same from a newly re-formed clan with different players?.
This is the whole point dave, you SHOULD have spoken to me asking me for assurances that any loss of discipline while playing in the league could result in a ban. But you didn't.
You learned that Whez and Ethereal had joined and found a way to get back at them for words exchanged between the three of you regarding the CTF season.

One day you emails say we should expect to hear from you soon about a free slot in the league, the next day we are banned.

It has also been mentioned to me that when you came to #dtx probably to offer us a spot, you were abused by 2 people in the channel. I have read the log and find nothing in there that would warrant a ban. Nash is not in DTX and Etheral and yourself have past history. If things were said that you were not happy about, then I apologise - nobody should be abused in #DTX - especially an admin. I have made it clear to the people involved to keep there personal views to themselves in future.
But why didn't speak to me, wait me for me to come back from whatever I was doing (Jossling prolly) and say you were not happy with how you were treated?.
Thats why we have clan leaders is it not?.


Predster

 

[old.Stridey]

Attitude

I was in #DTX when Bigfoot came in to offer DTX a position in the league, and he got a bit of a slagging from a couple o the players... I didn't see it all 'cos I got disconnected but what I saw woulda annoyed me had I been Bigfoot.

IMO, Bigfoot should let DTX play in the leagues like he intended when he joined the channel because DTX have just got together again as a clan so they've not got any track record in the Q3 leagues. To stop 'em playing is kinda a kick in the teeth and they don't deserve that.

Nasher and whoever else slagged him should appologise. I mean it's not like he doesn't deserve respect (being head of the BW leagues should be enough for anyone to show some respect) regardless of what you think of him. If your boss came in and you started slagging him off for stuff that's occured in the past, would you do the same or would you show him some respect?

 

[bigfoot]

It's not about whether or not i have a liking for them, the fact Ethereal was opped and apparently a member of DTX prompted me to check their website. After seeing that he and Whez had joined the clan, and taking into account Ethie's behaviour seems to indicate he still has a h00ge chip on his shoulder, it kind of made up my mind not to enter you because i thought it would lead to problems, aswell as the fact that with them you wouldn't be suitable for the spot i had planned to put you in anyhow.

Your actions since, however much apologising you have done for them elsewhere, have proved this to be the correct decision.

 

[old.Nasher]

Apology

Bif, I apologise for my comments the other day in both channels you were in. I had not seen you in over a yr since qw and you obviously didnt remember me taking my comments the wrong way.
I apologise if anything I said the other night offended you in any way, that was not my intention.

Nasher
Quake Wizzzards - reformed for Quake3
http://www.wizzzards.com <-- soon to actually be up to date

 

[old.Predster]

Hi.

After our (Bif & me) conversation in IRC tonight, I thought it wise to explain what happened.

While I was trying to find the real reason why DTX had been banned, he happened to mention that Whez had 'apparently' been trying to color the water in favour of DTX somewhere in an IRC chan. So, I said 'really Bif? post me the log post-haste so I can take action against this scoundrell'. But no, he wouldnt send it to me. Now most of you can probably guess whats coming next but I will explain it for you nehow. As leader of DTX, what action can I take against a clan member, if the same people who are whining about a few comments made in IRC, will not send me the evidence?.
So I said 'gowan m8 - let me see it and I can do what you bl33t about so much', discipline the said person. He refused on the grounds he was acting as Admin for the league. Obviously he was not acting on behalf of the BWQ3L we (DTX)are apparently trying to corrupt.

How does the Head of Oragnized Gaming @ Barrysworld figure that its in the best interest of a clan or community to keep what players are doing to themselves, and not let the people who can take action against them, do anything, ie the clan leader.

I can't do anything if I don't know about it can I.


Predster

 

[old.Predster]

Where to now Biggy?

Oh.

I aplologised to you for anything that was said when you visited #DTX, that may have offended you.


Eth has since left

So now you have no reason to not let us into the league do you?.
Unless of course there is another reason why we now can't play?.

Predster

 

[old.Nasher]

A ps just for Strider

Strider, you have a problem with me then you`re more then welcome to come and talk about it to me instead of slagging off your big mouth on the msg boards.
You had no knowledge of the situation (admitting you timed out) and no knowledge of me.

You say i had no respect? I have never disrespected the job Bif does as head admin. Especially back in QW where he put in a s**tload of effort for basically very little reward it may have seemed like at the time, although he did a fantastic job. That same night Bif clarified my clan position (the fact im in wz not dtx) and the next day offered wz another slot in a lower division (a different slot to the one i believe he had lined up for dtx) doing his job perfectly and helping us out immensely.

My comments were made in jest at past qw stuff, although I forget at times it was over a year ago that I quit so even longer ago that those things would have happened.
Pred spoke to me before he posted here and told me what he would be posting. I reread the logs and agreed that Pred was posting nothing out of line and that my comments could have been read as offensive, although not my intention and I would apologise to Bif on the board (I had Q3 practice at the time hence my delay in posting).

You have a problem with me in the future then come and speak about it to my face u s***less wonder ok?

Nasher
of Quake Wizzzards
http://www.wizzzards.com <-- gonna be eventually updated, or so im told =)

 

[old.Ethereal.E]

I've never gotten along with Bigfoot. Not when he made Clan E lose the BW CTF Season one to nEo when E won from nEo and din't lose a single match. Not when he and I were both columnists at BW and he got his column taken away due to abuse of other columnists. Not when Manta and he had pages of arguments in the private BW channel and when I tried to calm things down. For me it wasn't strange that when Bigfoot entered #DTX I made some sneering remarks. After all, remarks like "Run Eth like you did when you lost BW CTF Season 1" ask for a certain reply. At the moment he entered the channel, however, I was foolishly not aware that DTX was trying to enter the Barrysworld league. My mistake. I also wasn't aware Bigfoot would let his personal turmoil with me get into his admin decision making. My mistake.

However, if Bigfoot's problem with DTX is actually ME (and Whez perhaps), then I won't make a third mistake in a row. I'm leaving DTX hoping that Bigfoot's reasons as mentioned above are true. For me it's sad that for the rest of my Quaking 'career' I have to avoid BW and Bigfoot. For DTX it's sad that they lose a player even though, apparently, brought them into this mess. DTX are a great bunch of guys and they don't deserve to go through all this just because Bigfoot and I don't get along. Sad, but I guess it's just the way things go...

[Edited by Ethereal.E on 21-11-00 at 01:56]

 

[old.Stridey]

Steve asked me to comment in here about what went on so I did to the best of my POV.

Nasher: I don't have a problem with you, my reasoning about the apology was that perhaps if you did apologise then Bigfoot would let DTX play. This thread is all about trying to reason how it would be possible for DTX to play in the BW leagues and all I was doing was giving my POV on why that should happen.

As far as the disrespect goes... Bigfoot put up with it for a little while, and I realise it was in jest, but then he eventually left because of what was being said. Granted he's disliked by some, it still doesn't mean he should be treated the way he was treated (even in jest), he was in the channel to give DTX a place in the league, something DTX have hoped for and waited on for a little while now.

If it irks you for me to say that then fine, there's nothing I can do about that. I don't think it warrants you slagging me since all I was trying to do was help Pred out with a suggestion to the problem. I didn't post anything you said or implied so there's really nothing to be upset about surely?

My intentions weren't to bad mouth you either or anyone else, I just pointed out what I saw and suggested it wasn't reason enough to stop a new clan from getting their feet of the ground in the leagues.

It's kinda sad the whole thing has blown up like this, I mean it's hard talking to Bigfoot when he's made up his mind, but attacking him or slagging isn't exactly gonna get anywhere is it? That's the reason for my post and I had hoped it would help DTX.