Does anyone have...

[Revz]

A slow weapon does more of its damage up front whereas a faster weapon is forever catching up. This is entirely down to your first hit in melee combat having a 0 second delay (ie. there is none). Draw a graph out if you like and you'll see that a fight has to go on for an infinite amount of time before the actual damage you do with a fast weapon catches up to that done by a slower one. Really obvious example:

Sword1 = 200 damage, 4 second delay (50 dps)
Sword2 = 50 damage, 1 second delay (50 dps)

Second 0 (start of fight)

Sword1 does 200 damage (infinite dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (infinite dps)

Second 1

Sword1 does 0 damage (200 dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (100 dps)

Second 2

Sword1 does 0 damage (100 dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (75 dps)

Second 3

Sword1 does 0 damage (66.7 dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (66.7 dps)

Second 4

Sword1 does 200 damage (100 dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (62.5 dps)

Second 5

Sword1 does 0 damage (80 dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (60 dps)

Second 6

Sword1 does 0 damage (66.7 dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (58.3 dps)

Second 7

Sword1 does 0 damage (57.1 dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (57.1 dps)

Second 8

Sword1 does 200 damage (75 dps)
Sword2 does 50 damage (56.3 dps)

You see how the dps for Sword1 goes up and down but never below that of Sword2? It will drop down to the same level (50 dps) and stay there eventually but that will take an infinite amount of time. The quicker the fight is over the bigger the benefit from using Sword1 as well. You will always do just as much damage as Sword2 and in many cases more!

The only time using Sword2 would be a benefit is if your opponent happend to have 201 hit points. It would take 5 seconds to kill them using Sword2 and 8 using Sword1. This is more than balanced by the fact that killing someone with 199 hit points would happen instantaneously with Sword1 and yet take 4 seconds with Sword2. Mathematically it is always better to use Sword1. If you are adding in percentage modifiers to damage or speed then it just emphasises the benefits of Sword1 even more.

 

[Ilum]

with your logic sycho you must be asking your boss to pay your salary every once a year so once you get a 3% raise it will be larger?

 

[Sycho]

Revz that's discluding the percentage bonuses gained from items coming into the equation beforehand aswell as banespike.

Ilum you saying percentage is a set value.

 

[CstasY]

with your logic sycho you must be asking your boss to pay your salary every once a year so once you get a 3% raise it will be larger?

Thats not really a very good example Ilum..

 

[Eva]

Percentage isn't a set value so that's why the slow weapon benefits more now due to this toa bonuses, if it was before toa then you would be right.

Why would the faster weapon benefit less benefit less ?

As Ilum said 10% of 300 is 30 and 10% off 600 is 60, which is still same dps as the faster weapon hit twice as fast.

Or I missunderstood something here.

 

[Sycho]

It's this simple, BEFORE ANY FORMS OF HASTE OR QUI 0.1 delay=10 damage or so.

4.1 sword is 1,85s.

4.4 sword is 1,98s.

This 4.4 sword caps 41 more damage than the 4.1 using banespike.

There is 0.15s delay difference.

0.15s delay IN THIS CASE becomes 41 more damage.

0.15s delay before any forms of haste/qui would be 15 or so.

 

[Sycho]

with your logic sycho you must be asking your boss to pay your salary every once a year so once you get a 3% raise it will be larger?

That's nothing like what i am saying since that percentage is only caculated from the same set value, the set value increases the more the delay of the weapon thus the all the ways of increasing damage which are also percentage base increase.

 

[Ilum]

and dps of all 16.5 dps weaps are also exactly the same sycho

 

[Sycho]

and dps of all 16.5 dps weaps are also exactly the same sycho

They can be too, it still makes the percentage value gain more benefit the slower the weapon is if it's same dps due to the slower weapon capping higher.If there wasn't toa bonuses then this would be entirely untrue.

 

[Ilum]

They can be too, it still makes the percentage value gain more benefit the slower the weapon is if it's same dps due to the slower weapon capping higher.If there wasn't toa bonuses then this would be entirely untrue.

No I already explained this in my 1st draft

 

[Xeanor]

I'll try to make you understand:

For example:

Person A has a 5.8s speed weapon, 250 quickness, 19% spell haste, 10% ToA haste.
The weapon has a damage cap of 580.
This person will have an attack speed of 2.62148s
This person does 221.24872 damage per second.
The weapon has a damage cap of 638 if 10% melee damage bonus is given.
With that, he will do 243.3736 damage per second.
Now the person activates banespike and will have a damage cap of 797.5
With that, he will do 304.217000 damage per second.

Person B has a 6.0s speed weapon, 250 quickness, 19% spell haste, 10% ToA gaste.
The weapon has a damage cap of 600.
This person will have an attack speed of 2.71188s
This person does 221.24872 damage per second.
The weapon has a damage cap of 660 if 10% melee damage bonus is given.
With that, he will do 243.3736 damage per second.
Now the person activates banespike and will have a damage cap of 825.
With that, he will do 304.217000 damage per second.

Now, those numbers are exactly the same, but it's a mathermetical calculation, which does not quite work like that in game:

Lets round the attack speed down to more realistic numbers: 2.62 and 2.71

A realistic DAOC situation:

How many times would you hit an enemy in a row... say... 2-8 attacks?

Lets do it for 2 attacks:

2 x 797.5 = 1595 damage in 2 swings, in a total of 5.24 seconds.
2 x 825 = 1650 damage in 2 swings, in a total of 5.42 seconds.

That's a difference of 55 damage with a time difference of 0.18 seconds.

4 attacks:

4 x 797.5 = 3190 damage in 4 swings, in a time of 10.48 seconds.
4 x 825 = 3300 damage in 4 swings, in a time of 10.84 seconds.

That's a difference of 110! damage in a time of 0.36 seconds.

8 attacks:

8 x 797.5 = 6380 damage in 8 swings, in a time of 20.96 seconds.
8 x 825 = 6600 damage in 8 swings, in a time of 21.68 seconds.

That's a difference of 220! damage in a time of 0.72 seconds.


Now, the mathemetical version:

100000 attacks:

100000 x 797.5 = 79750000 damage in 100000 swings, in a time of 262148 seconds.
100000 x 825 = 82500000 damage in 100000 swings, in a time of 271188 seconds.

Damage difference is 2750000 damage in a time difference of 9040 seconds.

Now if you divide the damage difference with the time difference for each round of swings:

55 / 0.18 = 305.555555555
110 / 0.36 = 305.555555555
220 / 0.72 = 305.555555555
2750000 / 9040 = 304.2035 (same as above actually, but this one is more precise)

You get the exact same numbers, yes. That's what you call your "dps", and no it doesn't change. But if you care to look at the realistic numbers:

55 extra damage for a 0.18s longer time for 2 swings?
110 extra damage for a 0.36s longer time for 4 swings?
220 extra damage for a 0.72s longer time for 8 swings?

Surely, 55 hit points is already quite a bit if youre hitting on a caster that has 1500 hit points, for a time disadvantage of 0.18s, which is f**k all. (can you count 0.18s ? I can't.)

And 110 extra damage while it only take 0.36s longer? I can't count 0.36s either, would you have that 110 extra damage?

And now, 220 damage difference, yes, I know 0.72s is quite "long" (in these relativations), but that's quite fast, and its almost half of a capped swing, yes i know, but it's still not even half on one swing of those used in these calculations.

Would you like that extra 220 damage and finish off the caster that has only 1500 hit points total, heals excluded? (220 hit points is 15% of his hit points) or would you wait another 1.90 second to just get the next swing?

I know, I'd go for the 220 extra damage, f**k waiting for more swings if it can be done in less, when you can't even visually notice the time difference. (that fight took 5 mins? seemed liked 1 minute) Ever had a moment like "wow, that red haste does his 0.05s faster than the yellow one!" ? No, you don't, and neither have I.

Theoretically the damage is the same, but in the game, there is a difference if you count in the human relativation of time.

 

[Ilum]

Nice calculation Xeanor, and if you try divide the damage difference with the time difference, you'll end up with a number just around 305 (basically the weapons dps).

Basically what I was trying to do but wasnt bothered enough to do it so properly

 

[Xeanor]

Nice calculation Xeanor, and if you try divide the damage difference with the time difference, you'll end up with a number just around 305 (basically the weapons dps).

Basically what I was trying to do but wasnt bothered enough to do it so properly

How about you read what I said, as I said that too.

55 / 0.18 = 305.555555555
110 / 0.36 = 305.555555555
220 / 0.72 = 305.555555555
2750000 / 9040 = 304.2035 (same as above actually, but this one is more precise)

You get the exact same numbers, yes. That's what you call your "dps", and no it doesn't change.

You're not only ignorant, but blind too.

 

[Sycho]

Still though what i been trying to say all along, banespike would gain more damage from a slower delay weap.Then you bring the dps stuff into the thread which i explained earlier, the faster weapon will do more dps at some points but the slower will do more usually because the way the delay of the weapon acts with bonuses like i explained several posts above.

You either think 0.15s melee speed is better than 41 more damage or can't quite understand it.

 

[Ilum]

Why do you feel the need to insult me?

 

[Xeanor]

Why do you feel the need to insult me?

Why do you still think you're right and just don't want to understand and/or read what we said?

 

[Ilum]

You said what I said basically. If you read what Sycho has written you'll see that he did write a lot of wrong information, and wasn't really good at getting his point across.

 

[Sycho]

You said what I said basically. If you read what Sycho has written you'll see that he did write a lot of wrong information, and wasn't really good at getting his point across.

How so?

You aren't understanding it.

I said it in my last 2 posts.

If the set value is changed(higher in this case), the percentage will be a greater number from the set value, it's that simple.

 

[Xeanor]

You said what I said basically. If you read what Sycho has written you'll see that he did write a lot of wrong information, and wasn't really good at getting his point across.

The only thing you said the same as me is that the dps doesn't change...


now if you go bother to read the last part of my post... then you will understand why a slower weapon is more beneficial in this game...

 

[Aoln]

Why do you feel the need to insult me?

BECAUSE YOU'RE A STUPID THICK FUCK.

 

[Xeanor]

And to come back to this:

Yes they do, it's obvious when you calculate it, go try ingame.So a savage with red dps shout and 4 spd claw only caps 20-40 damage less than 4.4 you saying?xD(when using their red dps shout) i know this isn't true myself and the savage red dps buff is same as my master lv10.

well, 4.4 is 10% slower than 4.0...sooo if the usual cap is 200 then the increase would be 20...if it was 400 it would be 40..i'm guessing a savage with dps buff can cap above that tho so the dmg difference can be more...point it..it will still even out cause the 4.0 is swinging faster that's how it look if you calculate it...dont' have a savage with red dps so can't test it out personally

Savages have celerity most of the time and will hit the 1.5s speed cap, thus making the 4.4 claw do more damage.

 

[Xeanor]

Also, Revz posted the main reason why a slower weapon does more damage.

But as Sycho said, that's without the bonus of banespike which is more beneficial on a slower weapon than on a faster weapon, IF you are talking about the first few hits, not about an average of 100000 hits.

 

[Ilum]

I said a slower weapon didn't increase dps, sycho replied:

Yes they do, it's obvious when you calculate it, go try ingame.So a savage with red dps shout and 4 spd claw only caps 20-40 damage less than 4.4 you saying?xD(when using their red dps shout) i know this isn't true myself and the savage red dps buff is same as my master lv10.

Xeanor said:

That's what you call your "dps", and no it doesn't change.

Sycho said:

You can come out with all you want, it doesn't deny the fact that a percentage gained from a set value DOESN'T stay the same when the set value has increased(which happens in this case) it's caculating from just like the example i said above about the houses.

Sycho said:

Percentage isn't a set value so that's why the slow weapon benefits more now due to this toa bonuses, if it was before toa then you would be right.

Sycho said:

They can be too, it still makes the percentage value gain more benefit the slower the weapon is if it's same dps due to the slower weapon capping higher.If there wasn't toa bonuses then this would be entirely untrue.

Xeanor you didn't mention this at all in his post. Because you know it's wrong. Which was all I pointed out, as well as offering the same calculations you did. But dunno for some reason you lash out at me just cause I was having an argument with Sycho, who btw I think is a nice bloke and I respect altho I think he miscalculated this No reason to be so protective, it's ok to be wrong in FL too I assume?

 

[Sycho]

Revz understands, read his post.

If you re-read my last few you would too.

All i was trying to say overall is the bonuses which i stated become a larger number the more delay the weapon is so they became more beneficial.

 

[Xeanor]

Xeanor you didn't mention this at all in his post. Because you know it's wrong. Which was all I pointed out, as well as offering the same calculations you did. But dunno for some reason you lash out at me just cause I was having an argument with Sycho, who btw I think is a nice bloke and I respect altho I think he miscalculated this No reason to be so protective, it's ok to be wrong in FL too I assume?

Sycho was wrong about some things, he did try to make clear what he meant though.

But you were wrong too, as things as banespike DO have a larger benefit on slower weapons.

Slower weapon doesn't increase dps, but it is NOT a measurement for the effective damage you do in the game.

 

[Ilum]

Sycho was wrong about some things, he did try to make clear what he meant though.

But you were wrong too, as things as banespike DO have a larger benefit on slower weapons.

Show me how then, cause I don't understand that. Unless you are meaning in the sense you've already said slower weaps was better than faster ones?

 

[Xeanor]

Show me how then, cause I don't understand that. Unless you are meaning in the sense you've already said slower weaps was better than faster ones?

Go back to Revz's post, add 25% damage to the two first hits, then say what you think. (If you understand his post)

Don't want to type the explanation here as that would be just saying the same as Revz already has said.

Now, I'm not gonna bother replying anymore, use 2 jambiyas on your merc (if you have one) if you want. xD

 

[Ilum]

kk does banespike only last enough time for first two hits tho? cause thats the only way i see it increasing dps..

 

[Sycho]

kk does banespike only last enough time for first two hits tho? cause thats the only way i see it increasing dps..

20 seconds.

But the toa melee damage and styled damage are like a permanent banespike since they are percentages which both increase the caps(set value), i stated all the percentages of ways increasing damage on first few pages.

I know you fooling me about ilum you **** xD

I will get you back don't worry xD

 

[Ilum]

then i dont see how banespike increases dps...which was what i said it didnt do