Dissatisfied with democracy and (6 vs 6)?

[old.Hawklans]

Its not that the rest of the clans are happy to "PLOD" along as you so nicely put it, its just that you will find many of them are either happy with MP. I have read all the arguements for both SW and MP, and I can see both points, but i think that this thread is going no where.

It is fairly obvious that there will be no change during this season. I suggest that this discussion is started up again at the end of the season, probably accompanied by a vote of all the current clans in each division. That way we will know exactly which format is prefered. As bigbb says time and time again, he is running with what the majority of clans currently want. No matter how much a few people argue for SW, if the majority want MP then thats how it should stay. And I know I will get flamed for this, but if you are so desparate for SW then surely you should join a SW based league?

Now i sit back, fire blanket in hand........

 

[bigbb]

Smack woodle on the button there, Hawklans. We'll do a more informed and covered review of the situation and the possibilities when we're coming to the end of Season One. Atm this is an isolated and disproportionate representation of clan's thoughts and opinions, nearer the time we'll draw attention to a vote and formal discussion.

 

[old.Hawklans]

Now that sounds like a damm good idea... hmmm maybe even an end to this thread?

 

[*Kornholio*]

Originally posted by Hawklans
Its not that the rest of the clans are happy to "PLOD" along as you so nicely put it, its just that you will find many of them are either happy with MP.

or ??

anyway, you seem to have misunderstood me... whatever...

 

[*Kornholio*]

Originally posted by Hawklans
Now that sounds like a damm good idea... hmmm maybe even an end to this thread?

why ??

 

[old.Hawklans]

Why what?

Why does it sound like a good idea, or why should the thread end?

It sounds like a good idea because then everyone is happy, there will obviously be no huge change in the league while its running mid-season, and we can then review it at the end. I am more than happy to have whichever format that the majority of people want... SW or MP

and the thread is becoming a bit redundant. There is a long way to go before we can have a change to the league, and this would be better discussed then, when we all have had chance to see how the league turns out, what problems have arisen due to running it as MP etc etc..... I am not saying there is no point to this discussion, just that it would be better to have close to the end of the season.

 

[*Kornholio*]

Ok i'm sorry... I'll shut up now then... please be sure to let everyone know when you think we could start expressing our opinions again...

 

[old.Hawklans]

Come on thats not what i meant and you know it.....

ok, forget i said anything about the thread ending, thats nothing to do with the thread subject anyway......

however still feel that nothing will change, and it needs a proper vote on the subject....

 

[dusustin]

The thing is, there is no euro league running SW (and I have no idea why really), which is why I am trying to convince the community in here that it is a good idea to change. And I see no reason why not to do that now, the sooner the better.

 

[old.Hawklans]

Ok i might be being very stupid here, but there is a european league running SW..... its www.teamwarfare.com, and they run a RTCW Euro ladder, which is based on the SW format.... i thought you would all know about it...

check it out, DEF HED are there already, in 1st position... come challenge us, its been very quiet and boring so far

 

[dusustin]

That is a ladder, not a league

 

[bigbb]

Originally posted by dusustin
The thing is, there is no euro league running SW (and I have no idea why really), which is why I am trying to convince the community in here that it is a good idea to change. And I see no reason why not to do that now, the sooner the better.

Whatever happens we will not be changing until Season Two where we will reappraise the situation with the clans and the community in a formal and accurate proportional representation of views.

Whatever happens, that's the case. It'll delay the league for simply weeks doing this now. Prepare your arguement there but no one really wants to be badgered about this all the way through Season One. We've said we'll give the voice to that argument and draw attention to it when the time is right.

 

[old.Hawklans]

Originally posted by dusustin
That is a ladder, not a league

Now your just being pedantic

 

[*Kornholio*]

Originally posted by Hawklans
pedantic

A word you'll get used to using quite a lot on these forums

However, he does have a point... leagues and ladders are 2 totally different animals...

 

[old.Sir Random]

MP vs SW

Well, now would be the time to poll the Clans and see what they think. With a week to go and divisions being restructured, it's an ideal time for pro SW players to make their case.

A poll-topic here with a link on the BarrysWorld League News page should do it. How about one vote for each of the 68 Clans? Most votes by midnight Saturday decides.

That would be the democratic solution letting the clans decide how they play.

 

[dusustin]

Good idea. But since bigbb said that this will take weeks and weeks to change, my guess is that they won't.

My thoughts: have one div1, one div2 and one div3. In that case, having one or two clans leaving won't hurt as much. And change the league to SW

 

[old.Sir Random]

I don't see how it would take weeks to change game type. The results will still be win, draw or lose (3,1,0 points) and if teams play just one map each week, the times won't need changing either.

 

[dusustin]

I have problems seeing this as well, but those are not my words, but one of the admins.

 

[bigbb]

Rules will have to changed after discussions with other admins. Divisions will have to change, because clans aren't automatically the same skill base on SW as they are MP. So they'll probably have to be either some kind of cup based tournament (as with DA) or to trawl through 72clans' information and battles to reach a fair division placement. Thereon, fixtures will have to be totally rewritten. It's very hard for you to see without being this side of the fence but it's not as simple as an rcon change to SW.

 

[old.Hawklans]

And also this cant be done without consulting and getting a preference from everyone in the league... my personal preference is for MP, but if the majority wish to have SW then thats fine, but we need to be careful that we dont get the situation where a few vocal members get the system changed, and the majority (quiet ones!) dont get a say in the matter.

 

[dusustin]

Just wanted to add that my poll in the planetwolfenstein came out with a 40-2 vote for SW. I know that there is many americans in there, and that they are more used to SW (as it is almost the only thing they play), but it also gives a fair statement of what the clan-people in there think.
But, as you stated, the mode in this league should be decided by the clans, I am just trying to convert people along the way

 

[old.Hawklans]

thats pretty conclusive, but its us clans mainly as you said. I would be happy to do an email vote, to all the clan leaders if barrysworld say yes. that would at least let us know what format the next season would be. i know it wont happen until the next season.

i know that SW forces one team to win, and stops draws from happening, but arn't draws part of the game? if you put together two teams who are evenly matched isnt that a valid outcome? it happens in most sport that runs a league format. MP allows for that to happen, and lets teams develop tactics, with thought and planning, not just a mad dash to the objective, with no other thought than the time limit.

I have also found that SW favours the defender (yeah and MP probably the attacker), as often once a quick time has been set all the defending team does it to pelt the objective with airstrikes, panzer attacks and grenades.... a bit limited and often very frustrating...

but as i have said, whatever the majority want...

 

[dusustin]

SW does not favour the defender, it favours noone. MP does favour the weaker team though, as they get more time to meet the objectives.
In our recent Barrys match, we got the objective within 2-3 minutes all the time, while the enemy took it during the last minute. Was it a fair match? No. Did it seem so on the scoreboard? Yes. SW would easily rule this out by letting the opposing team have as much time as the attackers did.

As both teams has one chance of setting the clock in SW, both have equal chance. SW can also result in a tie (both teams take one ABBA round each, or any combination in between), if you choose not to take in a tiebraker map.

I do not see any reason why to go MP. The only thing I have heard is it's "because then teams have the option of gathering, and not rushing". But this can be done in SW as well, if you feel like you have the time for it. A single player rush often result in a single player death as well, so you will have to act as a team in SW as well, and perhaps even more so then in MP.
SW requires more from the clan, more co-ordination, more team-play, more focus on co-ordinated attacks. You can not just send in wave after wave with players trying to get the objective, rather you will have to focus on each attack, and try to get it right the first time. In MP you have tons of chances to make things right, in SW you might only have a few. And you'll better have your team co-ordinated for those times.

This is perhaps what scares many, that it takes more from the clan. But I do not really understand what people have against SW here in Europe. We have met clans that are refusing to play SW when we have challenged them to, and I can't understand the reasons.
But I guess we are not better, refusing to play MP

I guess it is a complex question here in Europe, I just do not see why? Is it because people here are too accustomed by playing MP in pub servers? Or is there any other reasons, which I have missed?

 

[old.Hawklans]

Not sure mate,

seems to me that there are valid arguements for both formats, i know that personally i dont agree with some of your arguements, but i am sure you dont agree with mine.

As you said, yes i can see that sometimes MP might favour the weaker team, giving them time to recover, but also i still think that it can favour the team who just rushes in, gets a lucky break and hits the objective... encouraging teams to be less focused on teamwork and tactics.

But i wont say that i am right, its just my personal opinion, and i dont think people in europe prefer MP for any particular reason, not sure if you are implying that they favour it because they arent as good? doubt very much if thats what u meant.

I know that i havent played enough SW, and definatly would should we go to that format. The Euro ladder which we play in is based on SW so will be getting some exp there soon.

But i have noticed that most of the euro servers run MP not SW, i know our server does.... maybe its that which makes MP the most popular (if it is) peopel are used to it, and like many things people like to stick with what they know.

Its gonna be interesting to see what the outcome of any poll on it is.......

 

[old.psyder]

Easy Guys,

The more I think about the arguments over MP and SW the more I see them as just being different styles of game.

Would you say that because Man U score a goal in the 1st minute they're automatically better than there opponents?

I dunno which is the best format and ok dusustin you would have beaten us if the match was SW but you can't take away the fact that we did get the objective in both games even though you did it faster.

You guys where definately a more organised team on the night and we had to work really hard to get the objective in our games but we did.

We'll just have to wait and see how this ends up but I can see teams arguing the opposit "we would have got a draw if it was MP" i.e. just about to get the objective out when the time finishes.

I am still slighty more in favour of SW over MP but I'm swinging all the time :-P

Cheers

[DE]psyder

 

[old.Hawklans]

Maybe we could have both, either have two leagues one for SW and one for MP (ok i know thats alot of work, and maybe not a good idea) or stick with MP for the leagues, and use SW for competitions and cups etc where draws are not a good idea?

mind u if the vote is overwhelming in favour SW then it doesnt really matter, we will go to SW for everything! but should MP format win out then using SW for comps and cups would be good

 

[dusustin]

Psyder, I see your point, and my post was in no way intended to attack or downgrade your clan, I hope you understand that. True, you did manage to get the objective all the time, and we had a hard time fighting you bastards off. We had difficulties getting the objectives as well, you are a good clan, but I just think that SW is a more fair mode.

I recently saw that Bluw Yonder is choosing MP as mode when they are starting their league up, and this amaze me. Why are ALL european leagues running MP? Can't BWRTCWL be the first to realize that the american format is the way to go, and be prominent in shaping a great league, which later euro leagues will choose to follow?

But I am repeating myself, which I am fully aware of, and I am probably boring alot of people in the process. But the discussion is interesting, and I enjoy reading other clanmembers opinions on the matter. So keep posting on the matter, and I hope more clans get involved in the discussion, sharing their views.

 

[old.Hawklans]

Originally posted by dusustin
But the discussion is interesting, and I enjoy reading other clanmembers opinions on the matter. So keep posting on the matter, and I hope more clans get involved in the discussion, sharing their views.

yup i agree totally, this is worth while (please dont quote me back at myself from earlier!) i know we wont get any changes yet... but i have got to agree with dusustin that we need other clans to post here and let us know thier views... it would be good to see some other names!

 

[-A*Doc]

Lo all

I can only say that SW mode is fun for the rush, but if you are really in for some god things go for MP. It's more solid, and more equally, because your not just going for the time, has in SW mode were all(most) that matters is just time.

 

[old.Xtoaker]

Allo all and my first post is a moan
Ok i dont see why things have to be sw all this talk about better clans loose points because the time is longer surely that doesent make you the better clan.
In mp matches you have to work as a team and dont rely so much on indivdule players (we have a guy in ukc who can sneak past enemy lines in assault usally and lay the dyno pretty dam quick) so from what i can gather from these posts that would be cool.
Well i dont if i was playing a game and we lost that quickly and then only had 2 mins to do a objective it wouldnt be fun.
Also i think mp helps the not so good clans to get things together which makes for a better leauge and more fun.
And if a so called good clan cant defend for x mins then that doesent make them a good clan and they need to do work.
Defending on base for 15 mins is one my fav times its frantic lots going on and keeps you and your clan m8s on there toes.
If you make the leauge sw all it will do will encourage clans to learn quick attack and take the fun out of learning defence as well.
In my opnion a clan should be a ble to defend and attack and that is a mark of a good clan. and mp encourages that and sw doesent.