Dissatisfied with democracy and (6 vs 6)?

[old.gust0o]

Well, it's nice that you've managed to make it twice in a row you've said nothing useful

It's nice that you consider sarcasm, reasoning though

 

[McBastard]

My my

Let's go play in a sandbox, shall we gust0o? Or maybe not.

The current official objective maps are (together with my idea of an ideal team size):
Beach 6
Base 6
Castle 5
Assault 7
Sub 6
Depot 7-8
Village ?
Ice ?

I'm currently not so pleased with Village and Ice so I don't have a firm opinion on them. Anything from 5-7 or even 8, I s'pose.

Does anybody feel like making a similar list?

 

[old.gust0o]

I'd love to go and play in a sandbox, if that's what I have to do to get it through to you - that whilst you, personally, think those figures are a good idea, there are those who don't.

The initial post was about people being dissatisfied - ok, you've had your say, now why don't you go and play the team game as you think fit. This thread kicked off to see how many people weren't 100% behind the way the system currently works, and the tantalizing possibility of having a server for extended games.

There's nothing really much you can add.

 

[McBastard]

Ack

Discussion over.

TEG would love to join an 7vs7 or 8vs8 league.

 

[old.gust0o]

If you guys fancy an 8vs8 friendly, give me a shout

 

[{PxRx}Yojimbo]

ok, here's my 2 cents. oh and the views contained in this message are not necessarily the views of the clan, blah, blah, blah....

firstly there are quite a few 6v6 leagues that work. great, happy with that and we're in them.

but i would also be interested in a league with more players, 8v8, 9v9 or 10v10. our clan may not be big enough to field a regular 'large' team but we would be quite willing to combine with another small clan to participate in such a league as it would certainly be worth it.

as for maps....well castle and village work ok with 6v6. beach and base, yeah but could work equally well with more.

assault needs more, how many times have you seen a 1v1 duel in the open area. wastle of space, let's get more bodies in there.

ice, more as well.

depot you might as well forget unless you've got a minimum of 8v8 to make it a good map.

please don't make it stopwatch as it creates an imbalance. Team A going first has the full x mins to complete the objective. Team B going second has x mins or Team A's time whichever is the shorter. Disadvantage.

Also Team A can modify it's defence knowing the time they have to defend, taking less risks.

lastly if you feel that 10 people on voicechat is too many to handle be creative. appoint 1 or 2 'commanders' that call the shots. the rest shut up unless they've got something important to say. or setup 2 channels, one for offense the other for defence.

let's remember, in WWII they didn't have perfect lines of communication either and developing understanding is part of the game.

 

[old.Skull]

Stopwatch does not give one team an advantage over the other, If team a does the ojbective in 3 minutes, then they switch teams and team b does it in 6 minutes, then team a can be said to be, or at least to have done, better. Stopwatch would haveacknowledged this by not giving team b enough time to complete the objective, but in objective both teams would be treated the same.

Objective mode gives an advantage to the inferior team, by giving them extra time to do the same thing as the beter team, and as such it encourages draws

On the plus side, objective encourages the better team to have a better defence

As a side note, stopwatch is always done in an ABBA format, which should remove any tactical advantages it could be argued that the attacking side might get.

Depot, as it stands by default rules, is shit. unless one team is FAR better than the other, either team can keep it going indefinately

If the timelimit was actually used, it would be a fair map to play

 

[syk.chak]

Originally posted by Yojimbo25
lastly if you feel that 10 people on voicechat is too many to handle be creative. appoint 1 or 2 'commanders' that call the shots. the rest shut up unless they've got something important to say. or setup 2 channels, one for offense the other for defence.

I don't think people saying that meant it as a serious argument (I know I didn't when I said it). However, only letting 1/2 people talk much does defeat the objective.

As for what Skull says, I've gotta agree. The ABBA system takes away the unfairness which is obviously present if only AB is used, or ABAB.

 

[{PxRx}Yojimbo]

yeah ok, 1/2 people is perhaps an exaggeration but you get my meaning. not everyone has to be speaking all at the same time.

as for ABBA (apart from liking the group) i don't agree with you guys. as i understand it (and correct me if i'm wrong please) ABBA means that Team A plays for example:

axis map 1
allies map 1
allies map 2
axis map 2

what if map 1 is beach and map 2 assault? Team A ends up defending first on both. and how does it work with a map like depot where there is no distinct attacker and defender?

skull, don't agree on your point about the times. where is it said that the team that completes the objective quicker is necessarily the "better" side. using an abstract example, Clan A might come up with a strategy for a particular map where they on average complete the objective within 8:00mins 90% of the time. Clan B can complete the same objective on average within 5:00mins 50% of the time.

are you suggesting that Clan B is the better side for this particular map?

 

[old.Skull]

i considered that flaw with ABBA, but the principal behind it is very simple, and it wouldn't be hard to sort things out

Your second argument is just shit, frankly
If team A completes the objective in 5 minutes and team B is using their strategy of completing it in 8 minutes with 90% certainty, then team A is clearly better - i dont really need to go into the flaws of your premise.

 

[syk.chak]

Originally posted by Yojimbo25
as for ABBA (apart from liking the group) i don't agree with you guys. as i understand it (and correct me if i'm wrong please) ABBA means that Team A plays for example:

axis map 1
allies map 1
allies map 2
axis map 2

what if map 1 is beach and map 2 assault? Team A ends up defending first on both. and how does it work with a map like depot where there is no distinct attacker and defender?

ABBA goes, afaik:

Axis Map 1 - Full time limit.
Allies Map 1 - Have to beat time set by others
Allies Map 1 - Restarts, effectively. Has the full time limit
Axis Map 1 - Has to beat time of above.

And then that is repeated for the next map. Both clan has the chnace to set a time. That is the main problem with stopwatch for me, the time it takes.

 

[{PxRx}Yojimbo]

Chak, ok agreed. if that's the way ABBA plays with 4 games per map then yes that evens out the attacking/defending imbalance. but you're right if you want to play more than 1 map it's going to be a long session.

Skull, you're missing the point to what i'm saying. given that the two teams in the example have differing styles of play (1 tends to win quicker but less of the time, the other more often but in a slower time) stopwatch favours the former. objective favours the latter.

i'm arguing for objective because it rewards teams that achieve the objective in the set time. irrespective of what happened the previous game when they were defending. either the objective is accomplished or it isn't. who cares what the time was.

 

[old.Skull]

no, stopwatch favours the more versatile team.

 

[dusustin]

Stopwatch favors the better team. MP favors the weaker, and in my honest opinion it does not belong in leagues. SW takes longer time though, if you choose to run 2 maps every time, but use one map instead then, that is the way large leagues in the US does it.

I have brought it up before. And most of you know that we in EBG tend to complain alot

I can offer you an example. Before starting up EBG I was in the american clan FBG, but quit due to time and ping difference. Now, we once faced D|S in a game, whom you might know is considered to be the best team in the US. We played SW, and had the ability to set the time once (ABBA mode). And we sure as hell was able to, it is no big match on most of the maps.
Now, if this was to be played MP, we would have tied against D|S. Do I consider my former clan to be as good as D|S? Hell no.

Right there is the problem. By choosing MP in a league you will not be able to sort out the best clans in there. MP favors the weaker clans.

I'd like to see how the league evolves if you choose to keep it MP, in some months when clans have gone up and down in the divisions, and when clans of equal strength is in every division. You will have tons of tied games, I promise you this. Now, this is not a flame against the ones organizing this, I really appreciate what you are trying to do for the community. I know the time it takes, and the money it costs, and we are willing to let you use our server anytime. I am just merely trying to point out things that needs to be changed, in order to make the league fair.

Hope you give this a serious thought, and change the mode to SW.

Ola "dusustin!" Lundin

 

[*Kornholio*]

When I suggested SW ages ago everyone said it was for lamers etc... personally, I still prefer SW...


oh yeah... i told ya so

 

[*Kornholio*]

As an after-thought - the league has started, everyone has agreed to the rules by signing up... not a lot of chance of the good peeps running things will make such a drastic change like from MP to SW mode... so let's stop bitching & get on with the gaming 'eh ??

 

[dusustin]

It is not too late, nothing is really. The league is still in it's opening phase, and anything that still can improve the quality of the league should be implemented; especially one that can make the league more fair and correct. And a switch from MP to SW isn't that drastic really.

 

[bigbb]

It wasn't right to change it for Season One really. Objective is still the most played and the most loved mode and we felt it best to keep it that way, for the first season at least. Still keeping an eye on this debate for Season Two, where we'll reappraise the situation.

 

[{PxRx}Yojimbo]

dusustin wrote:

<<Now, we once faced D|S in a game, whom you might know is considered to be the best team in the US. We played SW, and had the ability to set the time once (ABBA mode). And we sure as hell was able to, it is no big match on most of the maps.
Now, if this was to be played MP, we would have tied against D|S. Do I consider my former clan to be as good as D|S? Hell no.>>

sorry mate, not with ya. if you were playing SW and the game ends as soon as time ran out (ie. you didn't beat their time) how can you know the game would have been tied under MP?


<<I'd like to see how the league evolves if you choose to keep it MP, in some months when clans have gone up and down in the divisions, and when clans of equal strength is in every division. You will have tons of tied games, I promise you this.>>

also disagree.

look at the first week of the league. 25 matches played, 4 draws. Looks to me like under MP the better teams are still winning. ok, you could argue that perhaps the divisions aren't quite balanced yet but look at the clanbase comps. even when good teams play good teams there still ain't many draws.

in any case who cares who the better team supposedly is. hate to draw comparisons but take a football match. if the game ends in a 2-2 draw, who cares who scored first, who had more possession or who had more chances. if the better team couldn't score more goals than the lessor, the lessor deserves a share of the points.

 

[dusustin]

"sorry mate, not with ya. if you were playing SW and the game ends as soon as time ran out (ie. you didn't beat their time) how can you know the game would have been tied under MP?"

------------------

You missed my point. In SW ABBA style, you get to have one round with full time on your hands to get the objective. We was able to do so against D|S, and if it would have been MP the score would have been 1-0 to us. But D|S had their chance to beat the clock we set, and sure as hell did so. Meaning, they got 1-0, and not a 1-1 if it would have been MP. And they got a fair win too.

-------------------

"look at the first week of the league. 25 matches played, 4 draws. Looks to me like under MP the better teams are still winning. ok, you could argue that perhaps the divisions aren't quite balanced yet but look at the clanbase comps. even when good teams play good teams there still ain't many draws."

-------------------

Clanbase aren't always MP. The games we have played in Clanbase has always been SW, and the games we are going to play will be SW as well. In Clanbase you decide the mode yourself, Clanbase does not state which mode to use. And, as I stated prior to this, the divisions aren't balanced yet.

--------------------

"in any case who cares who the better team supposedly is."

--------------------

Well, when playing in a league, that is very important. The divisions should be based on skill, not by a mode that makes the matches very unequal by giving the less good clan a big advantage.

MP might be common in Europe, I do not know this since I have followed the american scene more. But in America, noone plays MP, all leagues go SW. Moreover, most servers is SW, so I do not see how MP is considered to be the most popular.

Let me start up a poll in Planetwolfenstein, and see how the people think there. I'll get back with the results.

 

[bigbb]

Originally posted by dusustin
Let me start up a poll in Planetwolfenstein, and see how the people think there. I'll get back with the results.

Why? It's a forgone conclusion starting a poll on an American based portal

 

[dusustin]

There are many european in there too, plus I would like their opinions on the matter.

The thread is located at: http://www.forumplanet.com/planetwolfenstein/topic.asp?fid=1692&tid=603939

Feel free to post there, and state your opinions.

 

[bigbb]

Looking at it, their reasons are completely null for this league particularly.

Voted SW. Balances the maps too. because not all the maps are perfectly balanced. They are if you have to play on both sides though.

I was gonna say MP, but then I saw you meant for clan matches. I would have thought this was obvious, since with SW, playing through ABBA twice, you are assured of (almost) total gameplay balance.

Well, as everyone knows this and other leagues I know of play each map twice, either side, for both teams. To be honest I see no reason why the US RtCW scene running SW, means we have to as well.

Personally I prefer MP, as Cage once said SW is good for practice, but Objective is really how the game was intended. You're not trying to rush and complete the map, you can tactically and strategically pose your team, giving each an equal opportunity to win each and every round.

 

[dusustin]

It seems like I am getting nowhere, as we both have strong feelings on the subject, but I have some final questions:

Will Barrys make the league SW, or intend to; how are the admins position on this subject? I know bigbb's thoughts, how about the rest (gangster, plus the rest). Now, do not answer "maybe", I'd rather like a fuller explenation of your views.

Moreover, you previously stated that you might changed mode in Season 2, how far have you come in the discussions? And, if my clan quits the league now, but choose to come back when you have changed it into SW, will we start in div 2b?

 

[bigbb]

Originally posted by dusustin
It seems like I am getting nowhere, as we both have strong feelings on the subject

I don't have strong feelings on it really, I'm quite happy for the league to be SW if people wanted it, which at present there's been no consesus to prove so.

Will Barrys make the league SW, or intend to; how are the admins position on this subject? I know bigbb's thoughts, how about the rest (gangster, plus the rest).

The league will not change in Week 2 to Stopwatch, no. It will take weeks to reorganise and restructure the league, it may be difficult to understand without seeing it from here, but it will take a week or more to change everything.

X-Cal and Gangster both feel MP is the best option. As I said before and I say again, we may review the situation again for Season Two. We're not going to review it now, there'd be no point, we're all very happy with MP for the first season, at least. Once Season One is complete there may well be a change in hearts and minds, as such we could look at changing the mode.

Now, do not answer "maybe", I'd rather like a fuller explenation of your views.

I've never answered 'maybe', i've always tried to give the fullest and most constructive replies.

Moreover, you previously stated that you might changed mode in Season 2, how far have you come in the discussions? And, if my clan quits the league now, but choose to come back when you have changed it into SW, will we start in div 2b?

As I say we're not going to review the situation now, if we did we'd get an 'MP' consensus from the clans. If your clan would like to quit now it'll be completely removed, you'll need to reapply to the league upon Seasons Two. You need to follow the instructions of the 'Help' page to take this action.

If we were ever to change to SW divisions would have to reappraised, which would be difficult with the limited information on SW matches for clans. Most play SW as practice. I can't give an accurate answer to a division structure for that now.

 

[dusustin]

But will we get bumped down to 2b?

Furthermore, there is no limited information on SW matches for clans, there are tons of information on the issue. There might be limited knowledge in Europe, but that is because we have no actual league in here except yours (to my knowledge). But LadyLuck, a player on our team, is the admin of 3 SW leagues, I can ask her to contact you if you need help. Just let your emails cross the ocean, and you will get tons of help.

 

[{PxRx}Yojimbo]

ok, i understand now. fair points made.

not sure how i would vote in your poll but at least you've swung me from an all in favour of MP to an undecided.

 

[dusustin]

I think you have to be a registered member to cast a vote. Nice to hear that the views in the thread has made you more uncertain on the issue, giving SW a serious thought.

 

[bigbb]

Originally posted by dusustin
But will we get bumped down to 2b?

As i've said I can't say what division you'll be in for a hypothetically changed league. If your clan left now and returned to Season Two, with still being MP we'll base a division assesment on the results we have of your clan so far and where placements are available in divisions. We won't kick a clan out of a division to make way for clans who've decided to come back, but there will undoubtedly be places where clans have foldeded etc. It'll depend of that really.

Originally posted by dusustin
Furthermore, there is no limited information on SW matches for clans, there are tons of information on the issue. There might be limited knowledge in Europe, but that is because we have no actual league in here except yours (to my knowledge). But LadyLuck, a player on our team, is the admin of 3 SW leagues, I can ask her to contact you if you need help. Just let your emails cross the ocean, and you will get tons of help.

This league is a Euopean League, with about 60-70% of clans from the UK, rest from Central Europe in the main. We only have 2 US clans. Clanbase is almost exclusively played with European MP for the ladders and cups, afaik. So there is limited information available for European clans, which is who we serve. Even if LadyLuck was to provide some results for American clans, they're not the UK and European clans of which occupy the main stay of this league.

Tbh we wouldn't want to change the league to get more American clans, most have awful connections to BW and struggle to get a 150-250 ping out of a T1 line, according to POA, one of the American clans in the league. The decision to change would be taken after a consensus has been reached by our clans, of whom many prefer MP at the moment.

There are two other UK leagues, Jolt and soon coming BlueYonder, both of whom run on an MP structure for Europe.

Dusustin, you seem to be trying to convince me. As i've said, we're implementing the league the community wants. If the league clans changed hearts and minds to StopWatch mode, we'll be more than happy to change the league for Season Two. It's not me your query is with.

 

[*Kornholio*]

How about a poll on here ?? Although tbh, I don't think enough of the people playing in the league read these forums... There are 72 clans, with teams of 6 each = 432 people... even the slightest majority vote would be 217... if people were that intent on having the league changed from MP to SW, there would be a lot more ranting & raving going on in this thread... at the moment there's only 10 (maybe... that's including myself) people that are pro-SW whereas the rest are just happy to plod along as it is...