Discussion: Why do people think strafing is lame?

[Zebolt]

I don't see how Flimgoblin can say that it's not abuse. To do something that is not intended to work but is possible due to lack of programing skills and latency is to abuse something. It's not illegal, they do not ban ppl for it and they accept the fact that it works like that. But it's not intended to work like that and if you decide to abuse the fact that it works is up to you ofc.
Abuse? Very much so.

I haven't decided weather or not it's lame. I think it's very annoying when someone kill my RM like that but I do sometimes strafe myself to avoid getting killed, and I did it alot with my BD vs Vamps on Lamorak.
Lame? Not sure :>

 

[Aiteal]

no ur incapable of timing ur styles with ur swing timer in order not to get an oov message or strafing in combat message.

Firstly
goto http://glennmcanally.com/sarcastic/ and download the sarcastic font
I know sarcasm is the lowest form of humour, but I honestly didn't expect it to go over your head. So i'll rephrase that
I'm perfectly capable of straffing and getting styles off, but I choose not too, because the other guy could be playing on a very crappy connection.

ofc it is since there is no worse conditions than strafe or beeing strafed with a 64k isdn.

Now, I'll jusy have to take you at face value and not assume that you are lying about your connection in order to back up your arguement.
But let me explain this to you, even with a 64k ISDN connection, it is perfectly possible not to suffer from latency in an online game, I used my connection as an example, along with your connection speed you must also consider the priority given to your PC's network traffic by your ISP. Perhaps you had an isp with a router that had socialist tendencies I do not know, but normally the better the connection that you pay for, the better service your ISP will provide in theory. By paying for a good connection with high upload/download speeds you can normally also expect a high degree of availability, and during traffic bottlenecks and jams you can expect as a high paying customer to have your traffic given priority, thus reducing any latency issues you may otherwise suffer. Most people on low connection speeds do not have this luxury, that is why straffing effects them so much.

this issue exists from day 1 the fact that some ppl found out that exploiting it helps u in melee combat doesnt make it lame since EVERYONE can learn how to do it!

There's the key word, EXPLOIT, you are exploiting the the problems inherant in a distributed asynchronous computer application.
You wanna test that your reflexes and skillzzzz are all you think they are without the very real and for many people frustrating problem of latency, get out a console and play on equal terms, with equal connection speed against another person in a beat em up. That way you can both forget about the other factors over which you have absolutely no control, and as the speed of light is a constant, you don't have to worry about differences in updates as you are both staring at the same TV screen and the test will be a straight forward comparison of who's brain reacts faster and who's hand eye co-ordination is better developed. Melee strafing abuses the same problem as lag casting does, yet the former seems acceptable to some people.

i dont disagree with u on packet transfer issue i just said that lag isnt the key issue for the fact that some ppl get cunted down by strafers. melee lag exists for everyone smart ppl learn to exploit it and stupid ppl die from it end of story. and i guess u alrady know how to suck eggs no need for me to teach u!

Let me give you a bit of background, like I said before, I've been writing server to server comms apps for nearly 7 years now, listeners, middleware and occassionally peer to peer apps.
I've had plenty of experience of 'lag' and how it effects different clients, I've seen how 'lag' effects applications such as the oracle database, which has been fine tuned by thousands of very talented developers since the late 70's and still will suffer from latency even on the cleanest corporate LAN.
So no, melee lag dosnt

'exists for everyone smart ppl learn to exploit it and stupid ppl die from it'

(sic)
it exists because it is a by product of the architecture. Because to change daoc to a synchronous application would cause more problems than it solves.

So yes, you can strafe if you like, and you may even enjoy it when the other person is also straffing, it may get your heart pumping in a way that standing toe to toe does not, thats your choice, I choose not too.
But don't for the love of god pass it off as skillzz, because the largest determing factor is not how fast you press your buttons in what is essentially a turn based rpg-game with turns that last 1.5 seconds for melee classes and around 1 sec for twinked casters, it's how good is your connection compared to the other guys when it comes to strafing.

I must remember to add to my rpfilter
/skilzzzz
"I exploit the latency issues inherant in asynchronous distributed computer applications"

 

[Flimgoblin]

zebolt - by abuse I mean "bannable offence" it is abusing in the way you say yeah but by abuse I meant bannable

 

[noaim]

it's lame imo because your ability to strafe and how damaging it is depends rather a lot on your net connection/computer speed, plus tiny bits of lag and you're getting "out of view" even when you are actually facing them on your screen.

I guess that's my main problem with it - I can have an enemy directly in front of me on my screen (well, ok so they're warping left and right but at the time I get around to hitting they _look_ like they're in front of me) but not be able to hit them - the actual position of the opponent on screen thanks to latency is not where the server thinks they are, strafing around exacerbates this problem.

If you could just point your character at theirs and have it reliable it'd be fine (e.g. like a space combat game ala elite where someone trying to shake you off their tail can be predicted) but the rubberbanding aspect is what makes it a pain in the arse. I'm sure you can predict movements and the like just the on screen representation isn't much use for doing so.

But you can stick someone and hit him, if he starts running you will get "Your target is too far away" due to lag, so is it lame, or abuse, or whatever word you wanna use to run from tanks aswell, if that makes em unable to hit you when they should be able to?

 

[Ozilia]

Melee can run through to avoid casters casting at them.

Casters can strafe to avoid the tanktrain killing them in 2 secs.

See how it all evens out?! Don't see a big problem here.

 

[Alme]

How much u get screwed over by the strafing depends on how much latency uve got. But u got an advantage in pretty much every online game with low latency so cant really c whats different with daoc. Running thru casters who cant do fuck all to counter it however is very lame. Id lie if i say i never do it tho

 

[santacruz]

But you can stick someone and hit him, if he starts running you will get "Your target is too far away" due to lag, so is it lame, or abuse, or whatever word you wanna use to run from tanks aswell, if that makes em unable to hit you when they should be able to?

If someone runs from me when I attack them that usually doesn't get me killed or well lately it has people always seem to run back to a FG around the corner but thats beside the point. TBH strafing in DAoC is not skill, not many things in DAoC are skill if you want a game based on skills and not time spent on playing a game you should play UT2004 Instagib or similar in which strafing and mousemovement play a huge role in skill.

 

[Alme]

just found something new.. flyboypip was simply moving backwards with garrote snare, i was stuck to him but still got out of range which made me hit unstyled, some new shit trick this or just lag?

 

[Konah]

i think its lame because its abusing game mechanics.

the enemy is on your screen and in front of you (enough) and yet u cant hit them because the game wont let you

fact that abusing a game bug has become common practice (just like run thru) doesnt make it right.

 

[Alme]

due to some new intel, id like to kindly ask pip to fuck off and die. ty

 

[raid]

strafe sucks cant stick and doublefrost

 

[Chrstffr]

strafe sucks cant stick and doublefrost

 

[Mirt]

I don't see how Flimgoblin can say that it's not abuse. To do something that is not intended to work but is possible due to lack of programing skills and latency is to abuse something.

What do you mean lack of programming skills? I don't see that you are in any place to comment on this, as you are almost certainly not a programmer and have no idea what's involved in making a game (Hint: the programmers are NOT in charge of many things you might think they are)...


Anyway I'd like to point out something from the real world that I feel is relavent:

The Americans have a bill of rights, this basically states everything they're fundamentally allowed to do. If something new comes along, by default it's technically not allowed unless is legislation to allow it. The other hand the UK does not have a bill of rights, by default we may do anything we like unless there is legislation to disallow it. This is a double edged sword, but to my mind UK law > US law.

What does this have to do with strafing? Basically the CoC is a list of things you can't do, not a list of things you can. Until the CoC states that strafing or using lag to advantage is disallowed, it IS allowed. If you don't like that, send feedback to GoA or play something else.

 

[UriZeN]

Firstly
goto http://glennmcanally.com/sarcastic/ and download the sarcastic font
I know sarcasm is the lowest form of humour, but I honestly didn't expect it to go over your head. So i'll rephrase that
I'm perfectly capable of straffing and getting styles off, but I choose not too, because the other guy could be playing on a very crappy connection.


Now, I'll jusy have to take you at face value and not assume that you are lying about your connection in order to back up your arguement.
But let me explain this to you, even with a 64k ISDN connection, it is perfectly possible not to suffer from latency in an online game, I used my connection as an example, along with your connection speed you must also consider the priority given to your PC's network traffic by your ISP. Perhaps you had an isp with a router that had socialist tendencies I do not know, but normally the better the connection that you pay for, the better service your ISP will provide in theory. By paying for a good connection with high upload/download speeds you can normally also expect a high degree of availability, and during traffic bottlenecks and jams you can expect as a high paying customer to have your traffic given priority, thus reducing any latency issues you may otherwise suffer. Most people on low connection speeds do not have this luxury, that is why straffing effects them so much.




There's the key word, EXPLOIT, you are exploiting the the problems inherant in a distributed asynchronous computer application.
You wanna test that your reflexes and skillzzzz are all you think they are without the very real and for many people frustrating problem of latency, get out a console and play on equal terms, with equal connection speed against another person in a beat em up. That way you can both forget about the other factors over which you have absolutely no control, and as the speed of light is a constant, you don't have to worry about differences in updates as you are both staring at the same TV screen and the test will be a straight forward comparison of who's brain reacts faster and who's hand eye co-ordination is better developed. Melee strafing abuses the same problem as lag casting does, yet the former seems acceptable to some people.




Let me give you a bit of background, like I said before, I've been writing server to server comms apps for nearly 7 years now, listeners, middleware and occassionally peer to peer apps.
I've had plenty of experience of 'lag' and how it effects different clients, I've seen how 'lag' effects applications such as the oracle database, which has been fine tuned by thousands of very talented developers since the late 70's and still will suffer from latency even on the cleanest corporate LAN.
So no, melee lag dosnt
(sic)
it exists because it is a by product of the architecture. Because to change daoc to a synchronous application would cause more problems than it solves.

So yes, you can strafe if you like, and you may even enjoy it when the other person is also straffing, it may get your heart pumping in a way that standing toe to toe does not, thats your choice, I choose not too.
But don't for the love of god pass it off as skillzz, because the largest determing factor is not how fast you press your buttons in what is essentially a turn based rpg-game with turns that last 1.5 seconds for melee classes and around 1 sec for twinked casters, it's how good is your connection compared to the other guys when it comes to strafing.

I must remember to add to my rpfilter
/skilzzzz
"I exploit the latency issues inherant in asynchronous distributed computer applications"

firstly since ive never experienced the melee latency as u mean it even with low end connection, forgive me but i fail to understand what u mean by saying that its all about priority issues! from my pc i have a perma 0.5-1 sec delay with my current connection on everything i do thing i learned to live with! with my old connection this delay was even bigger! as for the reflex test im perfectly aware of the difference between a beat em up game and a mmorpg, and according to my experience is learning to fit ur actions according to ur latency when it comes to acceptable amounts of ping(300tops). above that imo the game isnt playable!
as for the sarcasm i wasnt beeing sarcastic i just assumed that we have a different perspective of the term combat strafe, and since u clarified that i will just assume that uve never troubled to fit ur actions to ur latency with ur old connection...

 

[Aiteal]

firstly since ive never experienced the melee latency as u mean it even with low end connection

Look mate, thats precisely my point, by not experiencing the same latency as another user may be subject to, you have a distinct advantage when it comes to an asynchronous distributed application, your client state is synched with the server state much faster than another user on a poorer connection will be, and to be clear, by poor connection I don't just mean the potential upload/download speed of their connection, you have to take into account internet traffic jams, dropped packets and even a shitty router somewhere between them and the server, something daoc players complain about all the time.

If you strafe in combat the server knows you are straffing thanks to the packets your daoc client sends it, however, another user may not receive those packets in time to allow them to adjust their position on screen to take account of your strafing, no matter how fast that person reactions may be, so when they send a packet back to the daoc server with information on for example the attack they wish to perform and the direction they are facing, the server will respond that you are out of view. There is nothing they can do about that. Just one dropped or queued packet on an otherwise fine connection will screw them.

If you continue to strafe and runthru that person could continue to receive those messages, they can adjust their on screen position, but they are adjusting it to information that is no longer valid, they may try to face north to get you in view, but as far as the server is concerned you are at their east, thats not a lack of skilllzzz on their part, its simply the way any game run over such a wide area network as the internet works.

If the communication over the internet was not bottlenecked at routers, and ISP's didn't limit traffic for certain users and the hardware that connects it all up didn't get overstretched at times then LAN gaming on a dedicated network would'nt be the only real choice for twitch based fps where concerns about lag affecting players ability to react in time are concerned.

Just let me ask you one question, is lag casting acceptable?
If the answer is no, then you gotta ask yourself, why do I find straffing in combat acceptable?
Both expolit the same weakness that an asynchronous distributed application suffers from.

Tbh, I can't be bothered to argue about it anymore, I've written the phrase 'asynchronous distributed application' enough for one day, it's too much like what I do for a living

 

[Profion]

Strafe forthewin. What else can u do when for example a stealther pops and starts to hitting on you? Strafe and get some range then kill the wanker.

 

[Harthai]

I don't see why anyone should complain really everyone benefits if they know how to strafe and also how to deal with it rather then just whine about it.

Meleers : run through and positioning .
Healers , Casters : avoid quite a bit of damage from meleers, and they still get hit theyre not completly untouchable so its fair imo.

If it exists , and its not illegal , use it. Could you imagine tanks without strafe? imagine how much harder it would be to do positionals.

 

[Zebolt]

What do you mean lack of programming skills? I don't see that you are in any place to comment on this, as you are almost certainly not a programmer and have no idea what's involved in making a game (Hint: the programmers are NOT in charge of many things you might think they are)...

I'm studying at one of the best universities in sweden, you're right I'm not a programmer, but I'm studying to become something pretty close to it and I'm almost done with my education. I have several friends who actually are studying to become programmers that are litteraly months from finnishing their education. I have friends who atm are making a MMORPG, but I doubt it will ever be released cuz' it's hard to make a breakthrough when companies like Blizzard are controlling the market.

So no I'm not a programmer as you pointed out but I can tell you this since you apparently don't know about the programming: when you program lets say the use of a spell, you have to include different applications, one who determine weather or not the person you're casting at are in view or not in this case. This takes time, and with the server latency it takes even longer time. So when you're out of view and then quickly pops into view again the game possibly haven't registered it yet (this is why you can sometimes nuke throught walls, cuz' it works both ways). This is ofc possible to go around with different tactics, but mythic have decided not to put the money/time/effort into fixing it.

And another thing, game companies are making a game to make money (obviously). They hire good programmers which will have a time limit cuz' the game company don't wanna waste more money than necessary. And therefore the programmers do something that works, possibly even works very good, but far from flawless. They do not decide what to program (I guess?) and do then program less good solutions due to the developers lack programming skills (as I mentioned) and tell the programers how they want things to work.

 

[Mirt]

@ Zebolt. I've been in the indusry (games that is) since '98 and when I joined I was a naieve fool who thought he could make a difference.

The truth is that the quality of the game is largely irrelevant to the sales figures (either the marketing people can sell it, or they can't - and jo public doesn't give a sh*t what Edge gave it out of ten).

I doubt you know this, but in all eurpoean countries (+ US, Australia and NZ), shop space for games (as well as for music CD's and DvDs) is bought by the publishers. Unless a title has massive investment from marketing, it will get no reatil exposure and won't sell. You could have best game ever, but if it doesn't get marketed, it's going to fail, and this is determined prior to any sales.

It's utterly demoralizing to see friends and collegues slog* their guts out on a good game, for it to get no marketing - and to sell fuck all, because some coke fiend in marketing said so.

You see that happen, then you see some shit game that somehow shifts 3+ million units (e.g. Getaway 1 on ps2 - rubbish game, sold millions). How can this be? Surely most people are sensible and won't buy crap? Sadly not, most people are far too busy to properly research the decisions they make every day (see http://cultinfobooks.com/bks_products/bookreviews/bkrev_influence.htm) and the marketing people take full advantage of this. Don't forget that most "independant" reviewers are not, someone has to pay for the websites and it's usually (indirectly) the publishers or the 3d card mafactures and all of them are biased. The games industry sucks, still it's better than packing shelves or selling my soul to some merchant bank (although they pay much better).

"and do then program less good solutions due to the developers lack programming skills "

No, usually it's lack of project management skills. You probably wouldn't believe how incompetant some managers in the games industry are, and how many man years are wasted making a typical game. It would be no exagguration to say that if some of the managers I know worked for the NHS that they'd end up in prison on corperate manslaughter charges (and almost nobody gets convicted of that).

*crunch time on a game ranges from 6 months (if your lucky) to several years (if you're not). Crunch time on games is notorious for, extreme unpaid overtime, often causing couples to break up or divorce and for people generally loose the plot. If you care, do some searches on google for 'ea spouse' (EA are a bunch of utter cu*ts, don't buy their games they're made in sweat shops)

 

[dajnamajt]

Well strafing is nice. I think its more dumb to stand still and eat the strikes. etc if youre a thane, and met a infil? dumb to stand still and die, instead you strafe and got a fair chance.
- You wanna make more damage than your opponent, and take less ofc.
- Positionstyles

But the sad thing is windows draggers or wtf it is, Sometimes i meet a caster/ or a weaker class and i start bash, and suddenly its saying not in view, like for 5 secs, and he turns up 50 feet away and owns me. thats just lame D;

 

[Maeloch]

But the sad thing is windows draggers or wtf it is, Sometimes i meet a caster/ or a weaker class and i start bash, and suddenly its saying not in view, like for 5 secs, and he turns up 50 feet away and owns me. thats just lame D;

I'd put it on same lvl as run thru vs casters, as it's putting you in a position to take free shots without opponent been able to do shit. tbh if there's a method for casters to lag out of view such as window dragging that still works (it was fixed afaik) and is not bannable, i'd encourage peeps to use it and would myself, cos atm assassins in particular with run thru just takes the piss.

I know someone gonna say OP lifetap, fotm easymode caster, baseline stunner, wtf am I supposed do - die!?, etc. But, and I know v well playing alts, stealthers spam it on any caster anytime, all the time - whether it's vs a rr11 sorc lifetapping or rr2 animist trying to qc his root that would most likely get purged anyhow.

 

[Zebolt]

Well Mirt, you're only pointing out what I'm trying to say really. Yes there's lots of things I don't know about the game industry but as it looks like most things are pretty obvious.

And maybe it's not the developers but the managment who decides on the game system (I honestly have no idea) but even so, it's due to lack of programming skills the DAoC system became how it is. If they knew from the start that it would be a problem they would probably have figured out a way to go around it, like in CoV for example where you character turns the right way when he's trying to get a spell off.