Determination?

T

Tilda

Guest
Do you group det tanks over non-det tanks?
ie grouping merc over a reaver
 
I

Ialkarn

Guest
I would prolly group a merc over an armsman if he is hibrid specced or low rr.
Also..all tanks should get Prevent Flight (Soldier Barricade too if Armsmen).
a char whitout that its just an half tank.
 
K

Kagato.

Guest
Detirmination 4 here and I love it.

And agreed with the above, i'd take a merc over a hybrid to, slam is for paladins and scouts.

Prevent flight is nice but oh so expensive :(

Im hoping they will improve Soldiers Barricade with the RA Review or if not at least drop the cost and reuse timer to something more attractive.
 
B

bracken_woodman

Guest
Originally posted by Ialkarn
I would prolly group a merc over an armsman if he is hibrid specced or low rr.
Also..all tanks should get Prevent Flight (Soldier Barricade too if Armsmen).
Click to expand...

What IS this problem people have with hybrid tanks? Either you havent played one or you havent seen how one can work at its best. I have 50+ 13 2H, 39+ 16 slash, 42+13 shield (when equipped), 6+9 parry. Take the damage aspect first. 50+13 2H along with 39+16 slash really isnt going to be a whole lot different to a regular 50/50 2H . The increase in minimum damage once you get over 50 isn't that great - infact there have been a number of logs showing that this is the main problem with the double speccing issue. So the difference in damage variance will not be that great - the only exception would be comparing to a high rr pure 2H. You also have a slam going in right before you start your attack - 9 times out of 10 this stops the enemy caster from running (unless the timer is up). This is as effective as having prevent flight - infact for slow weapon wielders I would even suggest it is more effective as you're not relying on the chance to proc once every 4-5 seconds. Then throw into that the ability to break off an attack and provide slam cover if needed for your own casters. That can't be underestimated. You also have the ability to switch to guard/block with 42+ shield. The only downside to being a hybrid is the low parry - and personally I just dont find that an issue. I'm really staggered at how people underestimate their utility. Of course a hybrid that doesnt have the top end damage spec will be gimped - but get the spec right, the bonuses right and play it properly and there isn't a problem. It really is time to stop the anti-hybrid nonsense.
 
A

araan

Guest
agreed with bracken... played pure pole before i used full respec and i find the hybrid spec far more flexible and effective wouldnt dream of changing to pure

ignore the sig joke with a sm m8 >_<
 
K

Kagato.

Guest
Originally posted by bracken_woodman
What IS this problem people have with hybrid tanks? Either you havent played one or you havent seen how one can work at its best. I have 50+ 13 2H, 39+ 16 slash, 42+13 shield (when equipped), 6+9 parry. Take the damage aspect first. 50+13 2H along with 39+16 slash really isnt going to be a whole lot different to a regular 50/50 2H . The increase in minimum damage once you get over 50 isn't that great - infact there have been a number of logs showing that this is the main problem with the double speccing issue. So the difference in damage variance will not be that great - the only exception would be comparing to a high rr pure 2H. You also have a slam going in right before you start your attack - 9 times out of 10 this stops the enemy caster from running (unless the timer is up). This is as effective as having prevent flight - infact for slow weapon wielders I would even suggest it is more effective as you're not relying on the chance to proc once every 4-5 seconds. Then throw into that the ability to break off an attack and provide slam cover if needed for your own casters. That can't be underestimated. You also have the ability to switch to guard/block with 42+ shield. The only downside to being a hybrid is the low parry - and personally I just dont find that an issue. I'm really staggered at how people underestimate their utility. Of course a hybrid that doesnt have the top end damage spec will be gimped - but get the spec right, the bonuses right and play it properly and there isn't a problem. It really is time to stop the anti-hybrid nonsense.
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Hope you got a good paladin in your group though to keep you slamming and using the heavy endurance styles :p And by the time you switch over your only going to get 1 style in before there free, with a merc though your going to be getting pure damage in for all that time and any pbt will be worthless.

Merc and a poler using assist works wonders.
 
B

bracken_woodman

Guest
Originally posted by Kagato.
Hope you got a good paladin in your group though to keep you slamming and using the heavy endurance styles :p And by the time you switch over your only going to get 1 style in before there free, with a merc though your going to be getting pure damage in for all that time and any pbt will be worthless.

Merc and a poler using assist works wonders.
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On offence I use small shield (large is for when I play defensive), so the end usage isn't that great - and besides I usually am grouped with a pally. The issue of end usage is therefore the same as for any tank, and the ways around it are the same.

As for the time to switch, it's nothing. With the right qbar set up it's minimal time to slam and be into the 2H styles - and I comfortably get more than one in before they are free. As for pbt, I have a jamby to break that if needed (though if I'm assisted I dont need to ofc, but its an option) - slam, one hit with jamby to pop the pbt and then into 2H. All in very little time with the right qbar. Tbh most of the supposed downsides to hybrids are more myth than reality. The only true downside to hybrid is the low parry - but my experience is that the benefits more than outweigh this. I'm not saying it's "better" than anything else (as with anything it depends on the player), but I am saying it gives an overall utility to a group that is totally underestimated - without the downsides that some people would have you believe. The idea that the hybrid is a gimped spec is based on ignorance, and is not born out by the reality.
 
K

Kagato.

Guest
Originally posted by bracken_woodman
On offence I use small shield (large is for when I play defensive), so the end usage isn't that great - and besides I usually am grouped with a pally. The issue of end usage is therefore the same as for any tank, and the ways around it are the same.

As for the time to switch, it's nothing. With the right qbar set up it's minimal time to slam and be into the 2H styles. As for pbt, I have a jamby to break that - slam, pop the pbt and then into 2H. All in very little time with the right qbar. Tbh most of the supposed downsides to hybrids are more myth than reality. I'm not saying it's "better" than anything else (as with anything it depends on the player), but I am saying it gives an overall utility to a group that is totally underestimated - without the downsides that some people would have you believe. The idea that the hybrid is a gimped spec is based on ignorance, and is not born out by the reality.
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Fumbles aside the time to switch weapons is the same with any set-up, with a two-handed weapon it still only gives you 1 freebie hit, before you get your 2nd hit of your enemy can still be /faced to you or quickcasting. They may be some redeeming features in the versitality of a hybrid if you like operating in the zerg but if you want a damage dealer, a merc or pure poler is better, if you want slamming, a paladin is better, you may be able to do either job ok but someone designed for it will still do it better, so you can't blame someone for choosing the man for the job if they have the choice.
 
B

bracken_woodman

Guest
Originally posted by Kagato.
Fumbles aside the time to switch weapons is the same with any set-up, with a two-handed weapon it still only gives you 1 freebie hit, before you get your 2nd hit of your enemy can still be /faced to you or quickcasting. They may be some redeeming features in the versitality of a hybrid if you like operating in the zerg but if you want a damage dealer, a merc or pure poler is better, if you want slamming, a paladin is better, you may be able to do either job ok but someone designed for it will still do it better, so you can't blame someone for choosing the man for the job if they have the choice.
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As I said, getting a 2nd hit in isn't an issue - its just about setting the qbar up to make it a smooth switch. Takes a little time to get used to it, and I'm as prone to hit the wrong key as anyone else - but 9 times out of 10 it doesnt come into it.

As for the damage issue, as I've said the damage difference is negligible. First up the top end damage is identical - 50+12 2H on a hybrid = 50+12 2H on a pure 2H, all other things being equal. Then you have the issue of the minimum damage. With 39+16 slash this takes you to 55. The equivalent on a pure 2H would be 50+16 = 66. This would obviously give some advantage, but there has been alot written on the fact that once you take it over 50 the extra you gain on the minimum damage is relatively insignificant. Its been regularly posted that this is one of the main issues with arsmen having to double spec - the midgard and hibernia tanks have a much lower variance from single spec than armsmen do from double speccing. Test it out sometime. Run logs of the difference in your damage variance if you drop item bonuses, i.e. with just 50+rr pole as compared to 50 + items + rr. You will find that it doesnt make much difference. So the damage issue of a hybrid compared to a pure is vastly overstated.

The whole point I'm making here is that it really pisses me off to hear these myths about hybrids - especially when if its repeated enough it will actually start to affect our chances of getting groups. I can see it now at atk - "Dont pick the hybrid they are gimps, wait for a proper tank". All because some people put out bullshit on a board. There is no reason to not pick a hybrid when compared to any other spec.

You know what? If I was faced with choosing between a merc, pure arsman or hybrid I would take the person who I believed to be the more competent player. Period. If I didnt know them, it would depend on our group. If we had no defensive tank I would take the hybrid as it would give that option. If we had no merc I would take the merc. If we had a merc I would take the pure arms. What I wouldnt do is not take someone based on myths.

It's sad that some people seem to need to slag off other specs especially when they haven't played, let alone played it for any length of time. I really don't know why they feel the need to do it.
 
G

gunner440

Guest
Originally posted by bracken_woodman
If I was faced with choosing between a merc, pure arsman or hybrid I would take the person who I believed to be the more competent player.
Click to expand...


ya i agree but

problem is when they are all competent players =/
 
V

vindicat0r

Guest
Originally posted by Kagato.
Fumbles aside the time to switch weapons is the same with any set-up, with a two-handed weapon it still only gives you 1 freebie hit, before you get your 2nd hit of your enemy can still be /faced to you or quickcasting. They may be some redeeming features in the versitality of a hybrid if you like operating in the zerg but if you want a damage dealer, a merc or pure poler is better, if you want slamming, a paladin is better, you may be able to do either job ok but someone designed for it will still do it better, so you can't blame someone for choosing the man for the job if they have the choice.
Click to expand...

After I slam I ALWAYS get 2 moves off. I have good qb and switch nearly instantly to do Phalanx on my Slammed target.

The thing is with an /assist group u dont need slam mostly as either

A) they die so fast it makes 0 diff < unless its healer with insta's etc>

or

B) somebody else has slammed and u waste slam + ur free intial front-load of damage.

When I am in /assist grps I tend to keep pole out purely and then just keep whacking, only to switch shield if I need to slam tank off supp or I see a healer hiding off to edge etc.

Hybrid is a perfectly acceptable spec but it's harder to play than s/s and full 2h/ pole. I have played all the spec's and hybrid is my fav for 1 reason, Utility. I dont need 50/50 to get big hits, I have / do hit for 1k dmg on occasion < Thanks Whyp for some abs debuffs ;)> big crit's etc. So not being 50/50 isnt a big deal for damage tbh.

Btw Giv arms free base spec in Pole as its unique to arms, would let us get all dmg type's 2. cant change plate as it effects pally 2.

ps: givf screeny's of Soldiers barricade being used in a fight, interested to see effect :D
 
Y

yurka_polearm

Guest
is Soldiers Barricade bugged, or going to be nerfed in the future?
 
K

Kagato.

Guest
Originally posted by vindicat0r
After I slam I ALWAYS get 2 moves off. I have good qb and switch nearly instantly to do Phalanx on my Slammed target.

The thing is with an /assist group u dont need slam mostly as either

A) they die so fast it makes 0 diff < unless its healer with insta's etc>

or

B) somebody else has slammed and u waste slam + ur free intial front-load of damage.

When I am in /assist grps I tend to keep pole out purely and then just keep whacking, only to switch shield if I need to slam tank off supp or I see a healer hiding off to edge etc.

Hybrid is a perfectly acceptable spec but it's harder to play than s/s and full 2h/ pole. I have played all the spec's and hybrid is my fav for 1 reason, Utility. I dont need 50/50 to get big hits, I have / do hit for 1k dmg on occasion < Thanks Whyp for some abs debuffs ;)> big crit's etc. So not being 50/50 isnt a big deal for damage tbh.

Btw Giv arms free base spec in Pole as its unique to arms, would let us get all dmg type's 2. cant change plate as it effects pally 2.

ps: givf screeny's of Soldiers barricade being used in a fight, interested to see effect :D
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Soldiers Barricade adds around 300 + af I hear? However it doesn' reduce damage taken by anywhere near the amount that BoF does, would be nice if they dropped the timer or something to make it worthwhile.

As for slam, I havent seen anyone able to slam me and pull off two styles before I can /face them again. with a 9 second stun it just doesn't happen or your fighting someone to slow to react. Try it yourself, spam /face and line up your reactive styles shortly after the first style lands and you'll be facing them again before they get a second hit off. Maybe if you use a pike or fastest speed two-handed you might just pull it off, but then your sacrificing your damage for it.
 
F

Felan-Gimp

Guest
I know for a fact my guild will always look for a det tank to be MA if possible, makes sense no point having all of u mezzed full dur if u happen to get jumped
 
G

gwal

Guest
yes tilda, determination tanks > tanks with no determination
 
J

Jiggs

Guest
soldiers barricade is uber

with two arms in group having it (both gunnerr and ialkarn have it) and two clerics with BoF its like being invulnerable for almost 2minutes against mid melee...
 
I

influenza

Guest
On another subject can anyone post a link that explains the RAs for me please?

Ive been told to get determination/purge and IP (few others i cant remember but im a while off 50 yet so it dont matter)

Kinda new to all this RA stuff :)
 
K

Kagato.

Guest
Originally posted by influenza
On another subject can anyone post a link that explains the RAs for me please?

Ive been told to get determination/purge and IP (few others i cant remember but im a while off 50 yet so it dont matter)

Kinda new to all this RA stuff :)
Click to expand...

Not great explanations but better then non:

Realm Abilities
 
V

vintervargen

Guest
determination owns rvr

just check rvr population of savages>>>>reavers>VWs
 
C

cougar-

Guest
not that many savages yet if you do a /who savage , but most of them do rvr ;)
 
F

Falcor

Guest
Originally posted by Kagato.
Fumbles aside the time to switch weapons is the same with any set-up, with a two-handed weapon it still only gives you 1 freebie hit, before you get your 2nd hit of your enemy can still be /faced to you or quickcasting. They may be some redeeming features in the versitality of a hybrid if you like operating in the zerg but if you want a damage dealer, a merc or pure poler is better, if you want slamming, a paladin is better, you may be able to do either job ok but someone designed for it will still do it better, so you can't blame someone for choosing the man for the job if they have the choice.
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heh kagato dont be so anti hybrid spec, granted i do less damage than pure pole, but pure pole tanks get eaten alive by pbt, i like my spec, and when u get high rr tbh i dont think there is that big a difference, with the aug str/dex plus mopain, i get 2 hits in loads of times, and to insist hybrid tanks are zergers lol thats pathetic =/
 
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