Depression

[nath]

Amazing how many people who post on this forum appear to have bipoloar if you ask me.

In life I've hardly ever met anyone like that, yet here it's like every poster is one.

Actually it seems that a lot of people have suffered from depression which isn't the same thing.

 

[throdgrain]

THEY'RE GOOD AT PAINTING??!!??


Seriously, I'm not slagging you off guys, its just seems like a really high percentage.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well there is the thing that these days almost every moment of "i can't be arsed" is marked as depression.

Before if you were pissed off, or couldn't be arsed, it was just "can't be arsed" or you were pissed off. That's that.

Now it's depression this and bi-polar that and if you're not a chirpy person 100% of the time and fart rainbows and roses, you're depressed.

*cough*

Now if you DO suffer from the real medical state known as depression, it's a different thing.

 

[00dave]

Seriously, I'm not slagging you off guys, its just seems like a really high percentage.

As controversial as this sounds and I absolutely mean no offense but I believe it's probably something to do with the fact that most people who post here are heavily into computer gaming or work constantly with computers.
I imagine if you were to frequent a car enthusiast forum, or sports related forum there wouldn't be so many sufferers. There's probably some scientific explanation behind it all like muscles not being used and hormone inbalances, but lets be honest sitting in front of a screen all day has never been good for you. During my WoW days I noticed a change in my attitude towards life, these days I feel much better for quitting that vial life stealing game

 

[Chilly]

Just walk it off. Works for most things.

 

[nath]

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but my brother has absolutely no interest in computers.

Besides, if you create a thread called depression, it's pretty likely that the people who have experience with it are going to post. There's plenty of folk who *haven't* posted on this thread.

 

[throdgrain]

That's a fair point Nath

 

[rynnor]

It's interesting how many armchair experts there are when people say they have a mental disorder.

I'm not an expert but I am up to date on the current state of medical thought on depression - the tide has turned against anti-deppressive medication - they wont take people straight off them but they are looking at the area in a new light.

I may sound dis-passionate but most of my family for generations have suffered from various forms of depression and its killed a fair few of them so I have my reasons to study it and keep up to date.

My brother has been told by several of his friends that "those drugs are fucked up man, you should come off them". I guess they mean well, but the arrogance that they know better than a psychiatrist who works with this day to day is pretty astounding.

Thats not really what I'm saying - fo decades Doctors thought that anti-depressants worked by correcting a chemical imbalance in the brain - they were wrong as several recent published studies have shown.

My brother has pretty fucking severe bi-polar and without meds (I'm not talking just anti-depressants, I'm talking lithium) he would be/has been in a fucking awful state.

Lithium is effective as a mood stabilizer (or tranquilizer) but has its own side effects and again no-one actually knows how it provides this effect though there are a number of conflicting theories.

Therapy for him would be like having someone look at a bullet wound and saying "now tell me how this makes you feel".

I think you are doing therapy a dis-service here - we are talking about a mental cure for a mental health problem - it would be more analagous to compare it to offering a bandage to a person with a bullet wound.

I've no doubt there are misdiagnoses out there from time to time, but these conditions exist and these medications *do* help.

I'm not saying they dont exist but I dont think the labels are helpfull - these are not people who are somehow different to everyone else they posess the same traits as everyone else they are just further along the spectrum.

As to the medication - my point is that they are not an actual treatment - these drugs cannot cure depression/ bi-polar - they merely replace one mental state with a chemically induced one.

Its like going to the doctors with a knife in your back and him giving you painkiller's - you may not be able to feel it anymore but you still have a knife in your back.

At least with therapy there is some hope for an actual cure - the reason that these drugs are so widely prescribed is because it lets doctors fob these people off without the expense of therapy.

 

[rynnor]

Now if you DO suffer from the real medical state known as depression, it's a different thing.

No its the same thing - everyone suffers from depression at points but only those who have it more extremely and seek advice are medically diagnosed.

Its a spectrum - everyone is expected to be a bit depressed when someone dies etc. but if that turns into weeks and months that is seen as beyond the normal range and that person can acquire the label 'depression'.

 

[old.Tohtori]

No its the same thing - everyone suffers from depression at points but only those who have it more extremely and seek advice are medically diagnosed.

Its a spectrum - everyone is expected to be a bit depressed when someone dies etc. but if that turns into weeks and months that is seen as beyond the normal range and that person can acquire the label 'depression'.

Well that's what i meant, chronic and regular. Maybe worded it badly.

 

[old.user4556]

<devil's advocate>

I'm with Nath on "armchair experts" - noone here is qualified to diagnose someone based on anecdotal evidence posted on an internet forum (no disrespect to anyone on here who may have suffered in the past).

Sorry to post this again (it's on my other thread), but listen to what this guy says at the end of the call:

YouTube- Dimitri

Basically, a woman won't return his calls, so he deduces she's on pills, has depression and/or some other mental disorders.

Forget about depression for a minute. It could be that your friend is simply mal-adjusted, an asshat, or just not a nice person. Maybe she's got nothing going on in her life, so feels a sense of hopelessness that's getting her down, maybe she's very hormonal just now, maybe she's read about symptoms on the web and is acting them out in a bizarre attention seeking streak. You mentioned she was at a funeral of a friend - dunno about you guys but I'd be pretty beaten up about a mate dying young so I'm not exactly gonna be in the mood for speaking, going out etc.

I must ask: why are you so keen to help her? are you harbouring feelings for her (even a little bit)?

You are not their rescuer, nor should you ever try to be. You can help. You can support. But get a professional.

I agree with this. If you offer yourself as a rescurer (read: doormat) to a woman, she will walk all over you (see above: asshat). Also, leave it to the pros.

</devil's advocate>

 

[Zenith]

Nath, while I do agree with you to some extent, there is a huge debate even among the Psychological Association regarding this matter, therapy versus pills... Guess it all comes down to money and whether or not it is possible for the psychiatrist to treat every single one of his patients.

 

[rynnor]

Nath, while I do agree with you to some extent, there is a huge debate even among the Psychological Association regarding this matter, therapy versus pills... Guess it all comes down to money and whether or not it is possible for the psychiatrist to treat every single one of his patients.

We need a lot more therapists - theres a big push in the UK at the moment to promote Talking Therapies and to recruit thousands - hopefully this will eventually be seen as the first choice over mind altering drugs.

 

[nath]

Don't get me wrong, therapy is all fine and well and I'm not going to make generalisations. All I'm saying is I've sat with my brother in casualty and having someone sit with him saying "tell me how this makes you feel" is not, was not and will never be the answer. I've been reasonably involved with his struggle to find the right meds. Given how quickly they take effect, it's possible to see what's working at what's not.

Now yes, these meds are not a cure, there is no cure for this, though we've been told that the severity reduces with age. I'm not too keen to discuss the intimate details of his illness so I can't quite get across just how wrong it is to suggest that therapy could help. It can't, and my analogy stands. I will say that his bi polar is far more severe than many people get. Stephen Fry, for example, chooses not to medicate his condition (as far as I'm aware) and that's a choice my brother couldn't make any more than anyone here could choose not to see a doctor about a recently misplaced limb.

 

[tris-]

i thought it was normal as a couple of people here are describing things i have experienced.

i could be totally fine then suddenly feel very down. cant talk to anyone or if i do, its a couple of words a day. this could go on for 2 weeks then suddenly im right as rain. then it would back again just as suddenly. i would always get the feeling that people are being nice for the sake of it and if im not at some social thing, no one will be bothered anyway.

 

[Bugz]

I'm just a grumpy fuck all the time.

Do I get some pills for that?

 

[old.user4556]

People's expectations of life are too high.

 

[Garaen]

I wanted to go to the gym earlier but then decided I couldn't be arsed because I was too tired, does that mean I can join the depressed club?

 

[Aoami]

I was told by the doctors once that I have seasonal affective disorder, but i've come to realise lately that i'm probably just really lazy.

 

[rynnor]

Don't get me wrong, therapy is all fine and well and I'm not going to make generalisations. All I'm saying is I've sat with my brother in casualty and having someone sit with him saying "tell me how this makes you feel" is not, was not and will never be the answer. I've been reasonably involved with his struggle to find the right meds. Given how quickly they take effect, it's possible to see what's working at what's not.

One of the wife's friends is at the severe end of bi-polar - she spends 2/3rds of her life sectioned in high security wards and the other third in sheltered accomodation.

In the early weeks when shes just gone in they have her on so many tranqs she's like a zombie and can only stay awake to talk to us for short periods. The tranqs cause her to gain a lot of weight during this period which she struggles to lose later on.

She's about as severe a case as you could find yet even for her I believe she could be helped by the right type of therapy.

 

[nath]

She's about as severe a case as you could find yet even for her I believe she could be helped by the right type of therapy.

I'd be inclined to say that's absolutely absurd, but I don't know anything about this woman. All I can say is that if you were to say the same about my brother it'd be thoroughly ridiculous.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

You're unlikely to find a genuine qualified therapist that asks "Tell me how you feel." Any that did would likely be another Dr. Armchair type such as most of the posting on this thread

As to the medication - my point is that they are not an actual treatment - these drugs cannot cure depression/ bi-polar - they merely replace one mental state with a chemically induced one.

I agree with this though I disagree with your earlier point about the lack of understanding regarding the chemical nature of depression, for example, high levels of cortisol which are in the system over extended periods of time. It seems to me that the lack of understanding is mainly in how to formulate a chemical response, (or perhaps whether the response should be chemical at all). This is also shown above by other posters there are side effects which can knock a person's system further out of balance than the initial effects of depression.
In severe cases it would appear the only method of handling is a chemical response. That doesn't mean something better will not be found. Its just is done by the medical profession at this point in time. If the best that can be done is to substitute one chemical state for another but that replacement state is one where the patient is given some sort of equilibrium then thats something very worth considering. It might not be ideal, it might even have side effects but none of these things are straight black and white.

As you say, therapy is probably the way forward, however even in this arena there are fads and trends. Cognitive Behaviour Therapy appears to be currently the most favoured method because this can provide quick fix band-aids and cut through quickly in difficult cases. For example, it is heavily used in prisons, amongst other places. User-centric (person-centered) therapies take longer (ie are more expensive to health services) and hence less favoured but I've seen them have more effect than CBT. I freely admit my observations are limited.

Not directly replying to anything from here on in this post, just some Dr. Armchair stuff...

I cannot rightly say which is the best style of therapy as I'm not an expert on the subject, but then, neither am I someone who lives in Academia interested in the scientific aspect of the subject purely for the subject's own sake or is pushing a therapy style based on cost savings to a health service.

If suffering, there are sites like Medhelp where some might be surprised at the number of people similarly suffering. Once a person realises that they are not alone, not a raving lunatic for suffering these feelings it can go a long way to starting on the path to recovery.

Rather than just sticking to the obvious reading material about depression there are many philiosophies and texts which can be helpful, if you have a mind to. There are various books by Deepak Chopra and other writers on spiritualism. The Tao Te Ching is a good read in itself, never mind the philosophies it proposes that bear a good amount of scrutiny.

To anyone suffering the likes of reactive depression, I don't believe there is anything you "should" be doing. There are only things you might find beneficial when you feel able, in which case I hope the above helps. This is not as woolly as it might first sound as it has its basis in existentialism and person-centered counselling.

Lastly, 'normal' is just a consensus based on what makes communities feel safe. Probably a separate discussion in itself. Normal isn't always healthy.

 

[rynnor]

I'd be inclined to say that's absolutely absurd, but I don't know anything about this woman. All I can say is that if you were to say the same about my brother it'd be thoroughly ridiculous.

I know her pretty well though - I think much of it stems from her being abused as a child - I think that was the original pressure that triggered her behaviour.

If she could come to terms with those events she might be able to break out of the cycle but the whole system of mental health care is also against her.

She needs a lot more support than she currently gets but support is expensive thus its cheaper to just fill her with drugs - its a real tragedy.

 

[rynnor]

I cannot rightly say which is the best style of therapy as I'm not an expert on the subject, but then, neither am I someone who lives in Academia interested in the scientific aspect of the subject purely for the subject's own sake or is pushing a therapy style based on cost savings to a health service.

I think the best therapy is the one that works for the patient - I dont have any particular favourites and every relationship between a therapist and patient is unique - some people just wont hit it off with a particular therapist or approach.

I think its sad that therapy is often trivialised in popular culture - its a remarkably powerfull tool - these people are effectively de-bugging their own brains with the help of a guide - pretty impressive

There are of course those who cannot be helped by therapy - its useless for schizophrenics full stop - medication is the only route for them.