Demonising the Benefits System

[rynnor]

Is anyone else sick of it?

I find it shocking to see Milliband actually aligning himself in the direction of the Conservatives (who you expect to be divisive) in demonising and punishing benefits claimants.

The reality of the welfare system is that the biggest chunk goes to pensioners - its dis-ingenuous to pretend that cracking down on jobseekers allowance etc. can achieve much when the elephant in the room is the ever growing pension bill and other non-means tested benefits for the pensioners.

Of course pensioners vote whereas the benefits claimants often dont.

I find the whole divisive agenda quite depressing - there will always be people exploiting any system but the vast majority of those on benefits are legitimate.

What happened to helping each other as a society - do we really want a forgotten underclass?

 

[ECA]

You're really surprised to see Ed Miliband keep right?
Tony Blair was basically a tory, gordons expansion of public sector workers and massive overspending and general incompetence was the most labour thing about his government.

 

[rynnor]

You're really surprised to see Ed Miliband keep right?
Tony Blair was basically a tory, gordons expansion of public sector workers and massive overspending and general incompetence was the most labour thing about his government.

Its odd for a man in bed with the unions tbh - I guess hoping for a modern politician to stand by his core beliefs when they become unpopular was optimistic but its still shocking for a man leading a party with Labour in its name.

 

[Raven]

He is just a place holder. Labour know they fucked the country, they have no interest in putting it right or any idea how to do it.

For the moment they are happy to chug along, coming out with the odd soundbite here and there, no real policy and no real use. So long as they don't go extinct I don't think they really care at the moment.

 

[ECA]

He is just a place holder. Labour know they fucked the country, they have no interest in putting it right or any idea how to do it.
For the moment they are happy to chug along, coming out with the odd soundbite here and there, no real policy and no real use. So long as they don't go extinct I don't think they really care at the moment.

Their policy right now is being angry sounding at the tories and hoping enough people are mad at george osbourne come the general election that they win without having to try.
AND THEN COMES BORISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

 

[rynnor]

I have no idea who the hell I will vote for in 2015 - all 3 main parties are odious and UKIP are the party of miserable old bastards...

 

[Raven]

I will be drawing a big hairy penis on my ballot paper.

I know they count spoiled ballot papers but they really should have a none of the above option and count them properly.

 

[rynnor]

I will be drawing a big hairy penis on my ballot paper.

That may be the most sensible thing to do tbh - it cant be healthy for a democracy when chunks of the population do not believe anyone represents their interests?

 

[Chilly]

That may be the most sensible thing to do tbh - it cant be healthy for a democracy when chunks of the population do not believe anyone represents their interests?

Isnt that the very definition of democracy? Most people, most of the time, are not happy or well represented. But no one is really, completely, fucked. Usually.

 

[rynnor]

Isnt that the very definition of democracy? Most people, most of the time, are not happy or well represented. But no one is really, completely, fucked. Usually.

Perhaps but in my opinion its unusual to have no-one who really represents the working middle classes.

 

[Chilly]

Perhaps but in my opinion its unusual to have no-one who really represents the working middle classes.

Do you mean the working and middle classes or the middle classes who work (because all of the middle class works, else they'd be broke)?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I will be drawing a big hairy penis on my ballot paper.

So voting for Millibad then?

 

[rynnor]

Do you mean the working and middle classes or the middle classes who work (because all of the middle class works, else they'd be broke)?

Both really - representing people who work and pay taxes and are not ultra rich.

 

[Chilly]

Both really - representing people who work and pay taxes and are not ultra rich.

Well, what do you expect of a group of people who are the worst at voting? Pensioners vote for whoever gives them bigger pensions, if you don't like that (not you personally, but the whining middle classes in general) then vote for someone else. Almost 40% of eligible voters didnt vote last election.

 

[Job]

This was interesting on BBC4, bit heavy in places but it charts the rise of the original internet, or the royal mail for the masses who had started to become litterate and how it was all part of the revolution that ended in the King losing his head.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rvzts/The_Century_that_Wrote_Itself_The_Written_Self/

 

[rynnor]

Well, what do you expect of a group of people who are the worst at voting? Pensioners vote for whoever gives them bigger pensions, if you don't like that (not you personally, but the whining middle classes in general) then vote for someone else. Almost 40% of eligible voters didnt vote last election.

Can democracy work for the workers if those living on their backs are in majority though?

 

[Chilly]

Can democracy work for the workers if those living on their backs are in majority though?

Depends on whether you think the goal of a democracy is everyone being happy and healthy or the largest group being happiest and healthiest.

 

[rynnor]

Depends on whether you think the goal of a democracy is everyone being happy and healthy or the largest group being happiest and healthiest.

The second but I wonder if this is achievable if the electorate breaks down into various self interest groups?

 

[throdgrain]

I'm not sick of it. Too many people poncing for my liking.

 

[rynnor]

I'm not sick of it. Too many people poncing for my liking.

I hate to quote a labour MP but wouldnt it be better to get people off benefits by providing better paid jobs at the bottom rather than reducing benefits to make the differential?

I worry about this continual race to the bottom - when you factor in inflation and currency debasement we have all become poorer over the last few years and you dont stimulate an economy by making everyone poorer?

 

[throdgrain]

I hate to quote a labour MP but wouldnt it be better to get people off benefits by providing better paid jobs at the bottom rather than reducing benefits to make the differential?

I worry about this continual race to the bottom - when you factor in inflation and currency debasement we have all become poorer over the last few years and you dont stimulate an economy by making everyone poorer?

The government can't provide better paid jobs, that's the role of the private sector.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

The government can't provide better paid jobs, that's the role of the private sector.

They could, arguably, do more than raising the minimum wage by a pitiful amount like they have recently just announced.

 

[rynnor]

They could, arguably, do more than raising the minimum wage by a pitiful amount like they have recently just announced.

Yup - arguably this would also reduce the welfare bill since the state is effectively subsidising these non living wages with various top ups currently.

 

[rynnor]

The government can't provide better paid jobs, that's the role of the private sector.

If they got a handle on immigration then supply and demand would push up wages but currently with inexhaustible cheap labour from abroad wages are stagnant at the bottom.

 

[throdgrain]

If they got a handle on immigration then supply and demand would push up wages but currently with inexhaustible cheap labour from abroad wages are stagnant at the bottom.

You wont get any arguments from me on that one.

 

[Aoami]

If they got a handle on immigration then supply and demand would push up wages but currently with inexhaustible cheap labour from abroad wages are stagnant at the bottom.

I made a similar point in the Thatcher thread, but was opining that perhaps the reason immigration is so high is because the wages are so low in the first place that Brits don't want to get out of bed for peanuts so the cheap foreign labour needs to be imported.

 

[Scouse]

wouldnt it be better to get people off benefits by providing better paid jobs at the bottom rather than reducing benefits to make the differential?

Yes. It would.

The government can't provide better paid jobs, that's the role of the private sector.

They set the rules. We used to have a living wage - a wage where a man could go to work and support a family.

Now two people are required to work and fork out for a big childcare bill too.


If this economy can't provide that, then this economy isn't worth keeping.

 

[soze]

I made a similar point in the Thatcher thread, but was opining that perhaps the reason immigration is so high is because the wages are so low in the first place that Brits don't want to get out of bed for peanuts so the cheap foreign labour needs to be imported.

Yep only someone with a very strong work ethic would go and do something like farm labor for minimum wage when they could just sit at home and earn a similar amount for doing fuck all. The news in Essex showed a guy expanding his call center with 15 staff, all were previously on job seekers. He paid minimum wage plus commission. 5 people did not both to show up at all, one because it was raining. One quit when he got no commission after the week so said he was better off at home. And after 6 months only one was still there earning £20k plus.

In the few times my Dad has been out of work signing on has been really hard for him and he see's it as a failure. I have his work ethic and have been out of work for a week since finishing my GCSE's. But for some there is no Stigma to claiming benefits in fact they brag about how much they can scam out of the country while other mugs work. Those people make we want a radical shake up of the benefit system. And pensioner benefits and disability benefits need to be looked at. A girl at work has a £20k Golf as a disability car and it cost her £70 a month from her £500 a month disability benefit. She took home well over £1500 last month then got another £430 from the government. How does that work she is full time employed but is still claiming. She can afford her own car but why bother when you can get one for £70 a month.

Put me in charge and every disability car would be a Kia Ceed with the 2 trim and I would order them from Kia 100k at a time all the same color. You would get a massive discount and can run the bastards for 7 years with the warranty. Fuck getting a choice if you need a car for a disability to take what you are given.

 

[Litmus]

Yep only someone with a very strong work ethic would go and do something like farm labor for minimum wage when they could just sit at home and earn a similar amount for doing fuck all. The news in Essex showed a guy expanding his call center with 15 staff, all were previously on job seekers. He paid minimum wage plus commission. 5 people did not both to show up at all, one because it was raining. One quit when he got no commission after the week so said he was better off at home. And after 6 months only one was still there earning £20k plus.

In the few times my Dad has been out of work signing on has been really hard for him and he see's it as a failure. I have his work ethic and have been out of work for a week since finishing my GCSE's. But for some there is no Stigma to claiming benefits in fact they brag about how much they can scam out of the country while other mugs work. Those people make we want a radical shake up of the benefit system. And pensioner benefits and disability benefits need to be looked at. A girl at work has a £20k Golf as a disability car and it cost her £70 a month from her £500 a month disability benefit. She took home well over £1500 last month then got another £430 from the government. How does that work she is full time employed but is still claiming. She can afford her own car but why bother when you can get one for £70 a month.

Put me in charge and every disability car would be a Kia Ceed with the 2 trim and I would order them from Kia 100k at a time all the same color. You would get a massive discount and can run the bastards for 7 years with the warranty. Fuck getting a choice if you need a car for a disability to take what you are given.

I had same thing the last place I worked, I don't doubt the guy had an illness, he had a very weak immune system and a cold could be serious, and people with illness don't make 40 I'm told, but other than the chance of getting sick you wouldnt be able to tell the difference. Apart from he got a brand new Audi a3 every 3 years and God knows what benefits. Along with the 23k year salary.


I personally don't think his illness warranted a 25k car every 3 years as he earned as much as everyone else who worked there, minus the benefits on top. If he had mobility problems I could understand.

 

[Talivar]

Tbh if he had an ilness that could result in a cold killing him then he deserves whatever benefits he got for risking it to mingle with ppl and work