Decrease casters damage with increasing spell speed, debate thread!

[Tilda]

Post your replies to this

Now let's see them fix magic damage so spell damage reduces with cast speed, just like melee damage.

here!

let me go first!

So ofc you're quite happy with casted melee resist buffs, just like everybody gets for casters, right?
And ofc, casters would have to be able to cast while moving, just like meleers, right!
And ofc, remove interup code for casters, just like tanks, right?
Or would you prefer to add an interup code for tanks, so if someone banelords, casts on you, mezzes, roots, amnesia's etc, you get interupted and have to wait for a new swing...
Oh, you mean you didn't really think through you're idea long enough to realise that it sucks ass?

 

[Bonelamencer]

it sucks ass?

aye !

 

[Eva]

Post your replies to this


here!

let me go first!

So ofc you're quite happy with casted melee resist buffs, just like everybody gets for casters, right?
And ofc, casters would have to be able to cast while moving, just like meleers, right!
And ofc, remove interup code for casters, just like tanks, right?
Or would you prefer to add an interup code for tanks, so if someone banelords, casts on you, mezzes, roots, amnesia's etc, you get interupted and have to wait for a new swing...
Oh, you mean you didn't really think through you're idea long enough to realise that it sucks ass?

Useless to make a new thread to flame someones reply, imo.

But what you say is right. Caster damage and Melee damage isen't the same.

 

[xxManiacxx]

dmg should be lower with speed just like melee imo

and change interupt system to only interupt the spell being casted.
Max 2 BGs

Lower lt return value to max 50%

 

[Tilda]

Useless to make a new thread to flame someones reply, imo.

But what you say is right. Caster damage and Melee damage isen't the same.

Eva, i made it because in the time it took me to type my reply, there were already 3 or 4 replies criticising the suggestion, i'm sure there will be more.
So i made a thread for people to discuss it in!

 

[Cozak]

Give casters 30%abs and 2.5k hp as well then so they can live long enough to do damage.

 

[UndyingAngel]

Useless to make a new thread to flame someones reply, imo.

But what you say is right. Caster damage and Melee damage isen't the same.

and hes a mod as well.. then again 1 rule for 1 and another rule for someone else.. just Tilda being a cock as usual.. tbfh

 

[Tilda]

dmg should be lower with speed just like melee imo

a) did you even read my post?
b) Can you give reasons for your assertation, like, how it wouldn't then make the game rediculuously biased towards tank classes?

The whole idea of casters, is that they get to do huge damage, if left alone, not interupted, etc, and when they do get interupted, they cant do shit, and then when they get aggro they die really fast.

 

[Cozak]

Yes! Its been Freddied after 6 posts xD

 

[Tilda]

and hes a mod as well.. then again 1 rule for 1 and another rule for someone else.. just Tilda being a cock as usual.. tbfh

No, read my 2nd post in this thread.
If someone else had made the same thread as this, i'd have linked to it in the other post and told people to post arguments in it, not in the patch notes thread.

Have a 2 day holiday to calm down and chill out.

 

[Dorimor1]

just Tilda being a cock as usual.. tbfh

And thats UndyingAngel just being a cock as usual.. tbfh

On Topic: Casting speed and damage is OP - most of us know that, I wouldn't say you should apply the melee rule, just to tone them down a bit.

 

[Dorin]

randomTOA-edzerk goes frenzy mode!
randomTOA-edzerk uses BANESPIKE!
randomtoa-edzerk [grpchat]CELERITY PLZ!
randomTOA-edzerk hits you for 800 dmg!
You prepare to QUICK-CAST YOUR SPELL!
you are already casting bla bla bla
randomTOA-edzerk hits you for 560 dmg!
randomTOA-edzerk hits you for 744 dmg!
You cease your qcast couse you got fucking pwned!
/release

 

[Mastade]

Flamebait thread!, BAN

 

[Tilda]

Flamebait thread!, BAN

And after I fixed your fat fingered title!!

 

[xxManiacxx]

randomTOA-edzerk goes frenzy mode!
randomTOA-edzerk uses BANESPIKE!
randomtoa-edzerk [grpchat]CELERITY PLZ!
randomTOA-edzerk hits your brittle guard!
You prepare to QUICK-CAST YOUR SPELL!
you are already casting bla bla bla
randomTOA-edzerk hits your brittle guard!
randomTOA-edzerk hits your bladeturn!
You successfully cast "insert CC here"
You nuke randomTOA-edzerk for 700 damage!
You nuke randomTOA-edzerk for 700 damage!
You nuke randomTOA-edzerk for 700 damage!
You nuke randomTOA-edzerk for 700 damage!
RandomTOA-edzerk was just killed by "insert caster here"!

Corrected it for you

 

[Tilda]

You nuke randomTOA-edzerk for 700 damage!
You nuke randomTOA-edzerk for 700 damage!
RandomTOA-edzerk was just killed by "insert caster here"!

Corrected it for youCorrected it for you

Its a well known, and pretty obvious fact that most tanks, especially a zerk, will have charge, or purge, or both, and be quite happy to use both in a fight like this. Not to mention determination.
And if that caster is hitting 700 every nuke, i'd also suggest the zerk got some resists.
Heck, many tanks I know who solo regularly go out running red resist buffs too. So the damage would be more like 300 undebuffed.

 

[Rellik]

randomTOA-edzerk goes frenzy mode!
randomTOA-edzerk uses BANESPIKE!
randomtoa-edzerk [grpchat]CELERITY PLZ!
randomTOA-edzerk hits your brittle guard!
You prepare to QUICK-CAST YOUR SPELL!
you are already casting bla bla bla
randomTOA-edzerk hits your brittle guard!
randomTOA-edzerk hits your bladeturn!
You successfully cast "insert CC here"
You nuke randomTOA-edzerk for 700 damage!
randomTOA-edzerk casts zone of unmana
randomTOA-edzerk hits you for 400
you cast MoC you win!
RandomTOA-edzerk was just killed by "insert caster here"!

there fixed again

 

[Eva]

dmg should be lower with speed just like melee imo

The reason caster damage is high is because they're easially killed and interupted. A tank can just charge and nothing can stop him except death. And well, tanks aren't the easiest targets to bring down if you havn't noticed.

I say this again, caster damage and melee damage is 2 totally different things

A tank is uninteruptable, can move while doing damage and get neglected by bt, brittle guards, bodyguard.

A caster can't do damage uninteruptable(unless they spend 30 rsp on a ra), can't move while casting but in return they get greater dps.

In the end the caster damage while they are *not* interupted is a bit over the top maybe, but you need to remember that once they're interupted or dead their dps is 0. The banelord line also have alot of stuff that is considered anti-caster. Like Demorlization, Zone of Unmana and other aoe interupt spells. There is alot of stuff to nullify caster damage with, and if you don't use them right you're dead fast.

Probably the last from me, cba with this topic, been debated to much for my liking.

 

[Dorin]

Corrected it for you

1, demor (hi moc)
2, zou (hi moc!)
3, random banelord shit (Q_Q)
3, you know when bladeturn gets ahit you get interrupted xD
4, brittleguards help against mercenaries who got flurry down, but zerk with celerity yeh well ok
5, !?perma!? 700 dmg, no caster will do that alone... ever on a resist buffed tank iirc
6, CC on tanks, uhm come again?

anymore highlights?
only thing that keeps casters ingame is extend-looping-bodyguard sort of, if you want to take away something (dmg) give something on the other hand (less interruption)

seriously any half-decent light tank just drops zou or demo whenever i moc and runs off if they have to, wont even mention what happens if i dont have BG on.

only thing i can agree with tankling souls that MOC_LT is just retarded, but xpect that a light tank shouldnt have ANY problem 1vs1 vs a caster... in a grp its too many things it comes down to...

 

[Puppet]

The moment I prefer to jump a warrior over a :

Sorc
Caba
Theurg
SM
BD
WL

on my nightshade (Hib, so I dont list Hib casters, but prolly same for assassins in Mid/Alb) I know for myselves something is wrong with casters. People saying casters are easily killed and interrupted conveniently forget:

* Mastery of Concentration
* Physical Defense
* Brittle guards
* ML9 pets who hit more then a 2H tank does on the caster
* Bodyguarded
* Intercepting pets
* Lifetap

I think caster dps is a tad too high (say 10-20% in that order) *BUT* alot of stuff needs to go. Cap Brittleguards at 2, remove lifetap-component on MOC, remove ML9 pets from the RvR-scene, put SM-intercept to ONE intercept every 5-10 seconds, put a 20 sec immunity to grapple. Remove Banelord from BD/WL, put BD instant LT and body-debuff on same timer, reuse timer 15 seconds - 700 range. Delete warlocks and delete accounts who have a WL on them.

Then lets see how unbalanced it all is and go finetune abit.

 

[swifteagle]

Putting forward a solo scouts PoV on casters ,I rarely group with other characters and my scout is always solo so bear with me and don't flame cos i'm a scout

Casters speed and damage is far greater than anyone else can put out because of their casting speed and damage not being reduced like everyone elses.
My scout can load up a crit shot in 3 seconds IF it lands and the casters BT is down and they have'nt got 3 brittles to get through first and they havent got an intercepting pet I might hit for 1000+ if they have bad resists more likely it will be around 800 or so.
A more normal situation is that I load up and don't get a crit hitting for around 350-450 in 3 seconds.
A caster in 3 seconds would kill me outright no need to get past brittles,BT or anything else and yes I know I have stealth to get the surprise shot in but casters with all their defenses only really need to worry about other casters interrupting them not melee.
If my damage output was more like a casters in those 3 seconds to load up a crit shot I should, if comparing directly with a casters damage output per sec,
hit for around 2000,how many people would say that was ok because I too can be interrupted by all the things casters can be interrupted by ?

A bit rambling but I think my point is archers are more like casters than melee characters but we havent got massive damage output which hits no matter what and can be interrupted making our damage output 0 as well so but no one would accept archers being able to have the dps of casters atm.

 

[xxManiacxx]

Its a well known, and pretty obvious fact that most tanks, especially a zerk, will have charge, or purge, or both, and be quite happy to use both in a fight like this. Not to mention determination.
And if that caster is hitting 700 every nuke, i'd also suggest the zerk got some resists.
Heck, many tanks I know who solo regularly go out running red resist buffs too. So the damage would be more like 300 undebuffed.

34pts for det5
30pts for charge3
15pts for purge 2

versus

1 ra to rule them all. Mastery of concentration. 30pts

And I nuke for over 300dmg with my bl nuke on my sm.

Edit: and I think puppet said it all. I rather jump a hero or armsman or even a merc/bm then a fully toad/mled caster with my SB

 

[Raven]

if you think casters have it hard then you really need help

 

[Mavl]

Equating magic damage system to the melee damage system in this way is just silly.

Casters aren't designed to function this way. Too many issues.

 

[Chimaira]

Corrected it for you

>.< lovely

 

[Corran]

Only way to nerf caster damage is to change the whole interupt code. You want to reduce caster dmg?

All insta spells cause no interupts
All ML abilities cause no interupts
When caster takes damage they can still cast (increase cast time/reduce dmg a little though)

This will mean that they can still fight back when they interupted, which against good groups will be often. They wont be RP cows as they would be if you just nerfed dmg. Tanks suffer no penalty for taking dmg and so over time you find that when good groups meet a tank and a caster do quite similar dmg.

This is because caster dps goes from high to NOTHING. Tell me in the 5 or so seconds wasted from interupt (original spell being casted followed by the 3seconds interupt) how much dmg can a light tank do? lets just say a low number of 400dmg per round, 2.5 rounds, 1000dmg. How much has said caster done? nothing! Now more often then not you be interupted multiple times in a row till you out of range so you could easily say in the time a caster cant do dmg a light tank has done 3k or more

 

[Jeriraa]

The reason the 300 dex and the 2.x sec cast time hardcap were removed was the borked interrupt system. But we are at a point where revamping the interrupt code and reimplementing the old caps would basicly kill 90% of the DAoC caster population.

For those of you casters crying about tanks outdamaging you:
They MELEE! (Melee is when you have to get within 100 units range of your target to do damage.)
Lets see, sprintspeed in DAoC is ~350 units per second? A TOA'd up caster with max range bonus has 1650 range. Thats a 5 second gap where a tank deals zero damage. (Unless its an op'd Armsman using snapshot or a Thane/Champion but those aint tanks.) How much damage do you deal within 5 seconds?

I am playing healer in a fixed RvR group. I have capped resists and as a Mid we have all the magic resist buffs aswell. Yet it rarely takes more than 4 nukes to strip me of my ~2100 hitpoints. Also most casters nuke so bloody fast that I got hit twice by the I realize I am getting nuked. A 3rd time while I hit "target last attacker" (and not seldom get "your last attacker is not in range"), /face, moc and whatever spell I can manage to fire to interrupt. I can most times prevent a single caster from firing his 4th nuke and killing me or if I am really lucky the other healers aint busy and healing kicks in in time.

Well, healing is a different topic really... anyone noticed how hard it is for a mainhealing class that gains zero dex during leveling to outheal casters with 350-400 dex?


Anyways, I see 3 options: a) Considerably lower the castspeed but maintain the damage and reduce the chance of interrupts (It was meant to be a chance, not a guarantee wasnt it?)
b) Scale damage down vs castspeed.
c) Scale damage down vs range. (This would allow non-charge classes to actually reach a caster and hit him instead of dropping dead before him.)

The total DPS of casters has to go down no matter what since its not in line with the other damage types.

PS: Give Hib casters a root spell and remove the baseline stun. And before you now say baseline stun is not op'd I ask you: Was the Dragonfang nerf justified? Yes! So, when nerfing a reactionary 9sec stun that requires 1274 spec points to get was justified, then why would nerfing a 1650 range 9sec stun that you get for free and can use at any time not be?

 

[RS|Phil]

I think people lose sight of the fact casters are meant to die once they get hit in melee - you're not fucking Gandalf.

The stuff a caster can get to survive in melee is just silly now, be it brittles or RAs. In my mind, a caster is meant to do damage from a distance (but nothing like as much as they currently do) and be dog food once the melee toon is on them.

Ok they can be interrupted at said range, but not by everyone and not permanently. A pally or a thane can fire one spell then he'll get QC stun/mez/rooted so he can't get there and then nuiked to death. I normally get hit for 500-800 by spells nowadays (without Resist buffs), and ok my zerker my do that much dmg but he has to live to get there, and 5 spells in 5 seconds kinda ensures he's dead

Yes, a player may have Purge or Charge - but er, does the caster have to wait 5-15 minutes to re-use QC? No he does not, so that argument of RAs vs basic spell casting is just crap.

 

[Kanim]

in short, fuck off.

 

[Mavl]

One of my mates proposed a solution once.

Remove interrupt ticks (well you know, Interrupt... tick... tick... tick... before you cast again.)

When you are being interrupted the spell isn't cancelled, but instead cast time gets it's timer reset.

Of course, this is very WoWish like.