Data Privacy anyone?

[(Shovel)]

Seeing as there is one intelligent debate going on at the moment, I'll add this to the fray.

A recent spat of GuardianUnlimited articles for you to choke on:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,725196,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,727644,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,731051,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/netprivacy/article/0,2763,736011,00.html

Or, for the more casual, the now have an entire section dedicated to the issue of Data Privacy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/netprivacy/

Erm...

Discuss.

 

[doh_boy]

hmm I think they're just making what they're already doing legal.

I don't trust politicians, I've not read anything by machiavelli but what i've been told I dislike and since most politicians espose the guys virtues I'll just sit around and have all my rights slowly taken from me

 

[xane]

The guardian doesn't stand well in my books, they tend to oppose GM foods and champion climate control, appealing to the uninformed masses.

I find it rather ironic that newspapers somehow oppose privacy erosion yet the emergance of "chequebook journalism" has been doing that for years.

Personally I'd prefer the police to decide whether to take an interest in my affairs than some greasy hack in the media, at least the police have a valid independent complaints panel, whereas the PCC is completely unaccountable.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Echelon has been doing this for decades anyway... :uhoh:

 

[Scouse]

Have a look at:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/25670.html

(amongst other stories there)

I can't seem to find ANY reason the POST OFFICE would have for having the rights to trawl through my phone records, internet access history or email history.....

You bet your ass that in 5 years they'll have carte blanche and be able to do it as a matter of "business development" and "marketing studies".

Fucking NL government.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by ShockingAlberto
Echelon has been doing this for decades anyway... :uhoh:

The point is it now becomes _legal_ for it to do so.

From mobile phone records, police will also be able to map people's movements because the phones communicate with the nearest base station every few seconds. In urban areas, the information is accurate to within a few hundred metres, but when the next generation of mobiles comes on stream it will pinpoint users' locations to within a few metres.

I found this part interesting as it featured in the recent Daminola Taylor murder trial, in fact proving a defendant was too far away to have committed the murder. Interesting how the defence can get hold of such data but the prosecution (in this case the police)can't.

Regarding the internet activities, another case was that of the Selby rail crash where internet records showed Gary Hart had been active online since the early hours in a chatroom, which added to the prosecution claims that he had fallen asleep whilst driving.

 

[(Shovel)]

Not sure I take the guardian criticisms too far. You can only be misinformed if you choose to be. The articles I've linked are detailed so serve as a good starting point for a debate like this.

I can understand an argument for secret services and police to have access - but, taking the part of the list from one of the articles:

Who can track your messages

...

Other bodies

Environment agency
Financial services authority
Food standards agency
Health and safety executive
Information commissioner
Office of fair trading
Postal services commission
Scottish drug enforcement agency
Scottish environment protection agency
The UK atomic energy authority constabulary
A universal service provider covered by Postal Services Act

My main concern, stems from questions such as:
Why do the Food Standards agency need access to my email??
Ditto for the atomic energy authority - this power stations, not warheads remember.

The most absurd though, is surely the Postal services. Or at least, I think it is. Can someone clarify whether Consignia (aka the Post Office) fall under the bracket of "A universal service provider covered by Postal Services Act"?
If so, a private, profit making organisation is being given a legal right to this private and personal information. I don't expect they will be especially interested in fighting international terrorism.

It strikes me that this is all too much, that it's over the top, and that it's unjustified except by the screams of "national security". Which although you can justify anything in America by suffixing your sentences with "It's because of 9/11" - that really shouldn't be able to work over here.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Scouse
I can't seem to find ANY reason the POST OFFICE would have for having the rights to trawl through my phone records, internet access history or email history.....

I think you'll find the article says the Post Office _provides_ the information, not that it is allowed to use it.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The PostOffice was originally setup, so that all communications(Mail) could be monitored, incase someone was plotting to kill the king

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Shovel
My main concern, stems from questions such as:
Why do the Food Standards agency need access to my email??
Ditto for the atomic energy authority - this power stations, not warheads remember.

The FSA investigated the Foot and Mouth outbreak didn't they, if so maybe they should be given powers to track it's source, quite serious I would have thought.

And its the Atomic Energy Authority _Constabulary_, not the nukeheads themselves, just the branch of the police force that patrol it.

Don't take my comments as supporting this Act, I have my own doubts, but the media, especially the guardian, are infamous for making these issues larger than they appear, spreading the FUD which is their bread and butter.

 

[Scouse]

Yes - it is Consignia - they are the only one to which it applies.

I have no problem with the security services going through my records (they'd need a reason to do it - otherwise it'd be too boring for them)....

But the Environment Agency? Post office? Food Standards??

Don't get me wrong - they'll be able to come up with an excuse - but all they need for this is the say so of some semi-high-up manager in a company.

If the Environment Agency so badly need my personal details then I submit that they should have to apply through someone in the judiciary - get a warrant......

 

[(Shovel)]

Fair enough. I think it's gratitous though.

The next problem is that there are so many flaws.

The bit about mobile phones for instance. Aparently we can track people to within a couple of hundred metres based on reception masts.
However, what happens when the person turns off the phone. "Doh", he's vanished.
Or, and this doesn't take a genius to implement, you leave the phone turned on, put it on a long distance train and then go commit your crime. If you are especially coordinated you can even pick the phone up again to prove your innocence!

 

[Scouse]

I think you'll find the article says the Post Office _provides_ the information, not that it is allowed to use it.

Cam - you're losing sight of the facts again

Have a look here:

http://www.stand.org.uk/


The post office can request your mobile phone location data/email history/browsing history.

They need "a manager"'s permission - but that's it

Grrr and stuff.....

 

[(Shovel)]

Originally posted by Scouse
If the Environment Agency so badly need my personal details then I submit that they should have to apply through someone in the judiciary - get a warrant...... [/B]

Completely agreed. This legislation appears to be designed so that people can bypass warrents or at least obtain them on demand with less evidence.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Scouse
Cam - you're losing sight of the facts again

You're accusing me unfairly _again_.

The hyperlink to which you quote has the following

It allows phone companies, ISPs and postal operators to be served with notices demanding information such as names and addresses of users, phone numbers called, source and destination of emails, the identity of web sites visited or mobile phone location data.

I took this as saying the PO _provides_ information, subsequent posts have in fact confirmed the PO/Consignia is also a snooper too

 

[Scouse]

Soz chap

 

[~YuckFou~]

Unless the ISP's fit the "little black boxes" it will never happen. At the moment the ISP's are being asked to pay for the kit and the implementation. So rightly they have said "fuck off you pay for them". Other ISP's are threatening to move to France, were the rules would not apply, thus maintaining customers privacy.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by ~YuckFou~
Other ISP's are threatening to move to France, were the rules would not apply, thus maintaining customers privacy.

I thought this was implementation of _European_ laws, in which case it would apply at some point, if not already, to France also.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yes, but we all know that the French ignore everyone else, especially the EU

Did you not see Clarkson's visit to France?

 

[xane]

Originally posted by ShockingAlberto
Did you not see Clarkson's visit to France?

No I didn't but I'd imagine the union-jack underpants xenophobic renault-hater himself may possibly have had a slight bias in his reporting.

 

[~YuckFou~]

Originally posted by camazotz


I thought this was implementation of _European_ laws, in which case it would apply at some point, if not already, to France also.

True.
I'm no expert, just what I've read. But I don't think that we can snoop at other countries. If we could can you imagine the amount of data?

 

[(Shovel)]

It is a central European law but aparently we (UK) are going even furthur and are actually the ones leading the push for this.
Based on the report, we are being the most draconian in the world.

 

[Daffeh]

screw the system, man!

 

[Scouse]

I'm no expert, just what I've read. But I don't think that we can snoop at other countries. If we could can you imagine the amount of data?

That'll be why the German government is spending a fortune on converting it's critical and secret systems AWAY from Microsoft OS's then....

It believes that the American government is spying on them through back-doors in the M$ code that they made M$ put there....



Maybe they're worried by the decline in the sauerkraut industry

 

[Sar]

I read about this list on the Beeb News site, and was very disturbed to see the list of agencies that are purported to be given access to our data, because none of these agencies, bar law enforcement, has a right to them, nor any reason to want them.

All we need now is for the UN to set up a body called UNATCO and I'm changing my name to JC Denton.

Only police forces, intelligence services, Customs and Excise and the Inland Revenue could ask communication service providers for logs of what their customers are doing.

Now another 24 organisations, which include every local authority, are getting the power to request these logs.

That list of bodies being given access to our data in full:

Government departments
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Health
Home Office
Trade and Industry
Transport, Local Government and the Regions
Work and Pensions
Enterprise, Trade and Investment for Northern Ireland


Local authorities
Any local authority in England and Wales
Local councils
Fire authorities
District councils
Common Services Agency of the Scottish Health Service
Central Services Agency for the Northern Ireland's Health and Social Services.

Other bodies
Environment Agency
Financial Services Authority
Food Standards Agency
Health and Safety Executive
Information Commissioner
Office of Fair Trading
Postal Services Commission
Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency
Scottish Environment Protection Agency
UK Atomic Energy Authority Constabulary
New postal service providers

 

[Custy]

I don't give a shit if my e-mails are observed, my movement tracked etc.

I don't break the law so it doesn't bother me. Sure it is a bummer that we live in a world where this has to happen to reduce, Crime/fraud/terrorism, but if it does reduce these then i'm all for it.

Also quite like the idear of an ID card, control those damn illegal imergrants.

 

[Custy]

Although now i have read the reports properly, it is a bit gay that the Food standards agency can look at my e-mails.

 

[Sar]

I don't break the law either (rare mp3 downloads aside), but that's not why I'm fucked off at A.N. Other agency getting access to my private data - it's the same reason I'd get pissed off at some stranger sitting reading my newspaper over my shoulder on the bus or similar, I'm entitled to my own private space and time, and what I do on the net, unless it's breaking the law (peddling kiddy porn for instance), is my own business and no-one elses.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Maybe this will signal the acceptance of projects like Freenet?

 

[Sar]

That Freenet thing is slower than death.