Cue WWIII.

[Ch3tan]

It's not about double standards or hypocrisy though aika, the western world models itself on the freedoms of it's populace and the choice of democracy. We cannot preach that and then pick and choose when to stop people doing things, this should only be done through the democratic process. The countries in the East do not embrace these philosophies, so a comparison is futile.

 

[old.Tohtori]

But in general I wouldn't want this culture anywhere near me to be honest. Their values and concepts are so far from what a "Western" man is used to. In general I dislike fanatics of any religion, they just happen to have quite a lot of those.

This coiuld be said about any western culture too. Say for example the seeming, note seeming, intolerance towards different cultures of the UK, or the overspending of the US. Every culture has fanatics too, and yes while i don't necessarily agree with a lot of things being said or done in the middle-east, i wouldn't turn ALL of the culture down based on bad things.

What Ch3tan said is well put, as a freedom based western culture, really should start acting such.

This goes for all aspects of intolerancem prejudice or stereotypes.

 

[noblok]

This has nothing to do with focusing on illusional homogenity ( as its not illusional anyway, not culturally and not even biologically).

It has everything to do with focussing on illusional homogenity. It assumes the 'romans' are a homogenous group, who all act the same. They're not and they don't. Should they act like the punkrock roman with the footlong mohawk or is the nerdy librarian roman a better example? Or why not the neo-nazi skinhead roman, while we're at it?

I wanna see you immigrate to some muslim country and try to enforce your lifestyle there ( free alcohol, western traditions, liberated women,etc..) and how this will end.
Or just try to build a church in Iran or something.

Well, basically what Chetan said. Also: what if I, as a native Belgian (of several generations) decide I quite like islam and I also quite like minarets. I'm a Belgian living in Belgium, but apparently I shouldn't be allowed to build a mosque with minnaret, because it's not a 'Belgian' thing to do?

 

[Shagrat]

I'm sorry but you cant just say that because we are democratic/free society's people should be allowed to do what they want (within reason) but because their countries are intolerant backwaters (im generalising here, I know theyre not all like that) that we cant expect the same priviledges if the roles were reversed.

its all take and no give, your telling me they should be allowed to build minarets, teach the koran in mixed race schools etc, yet if a bulk of us moved out there dont fucking think about building churches and make sure your wife/female children are covered up.

thats bollocks.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Also where is this free alcohol he speaketh of?

Also there's a big problem with some western people thinking that mixing other cultures into western culture means that all women will be covered up and mosques with shiny golden globetops will pop up in central london, while men scream from building tops at you.

No, that means they are free to practise their own religion with the same limitations that anyone else has.

So if they choose to cover their women up, fine.
If they choose to rent out a place to practise their religion, go ahead.

Mixing culture does not mean that your culture dies.

 

[aika]

This coiuld be said about any western culture too. Say for example the seeming, note seeming, intolerance towards different cultures of the UK, or the overspending of the US. Every culture has fanatics too, and yes while i don't necessarily agree with a lot of things being said or done in the middle-east, i wouldn't turn ALL of the culture down based on bad things.

What Ch3tan said is well put, as a freedom based western culture, really should start acting such.

This goes for all aspects of intolerancem prejudice or stereotypes.

You can be freedom based all you like, but stereotyping and prejudices are part of the human nature, don't think it's something you can change( at least not in the near future ).

You also can't say that it is good or bad.
Anyways, what I meant is that I wanna continue with my quiet life and I don't think I wanna waste energy to adapt to another culture that comes from outside.

 

[aika]

It has everything to do with focussing on illusional homogenity. It assumes the 'romans' are a homogenous group, who all act the same. They're not and they don't. Should they act like the punkrock roman with the footlong mohawk or is the nerdy librarian roman a better example? Or why not the neo-nazi skinhead roman, while we're at it?


Well, basically what Chetan said. Also: what if I, as a native Belgian (of several generations) decide I quite like islam and I also quite like minarets. I'm a Belgian living in Belgium, but apparently I shouldn't be allowed to build a mosque with minnaret, because it's not a 'Belgian' thing to do?

I never said it's not a belgian thing to do, as you already live in Belgium, you're not someone that comes from abroad and starts enforcing their laws on the locals. I'm not against minarets, I'm against the entire concept of us giving/being tolerant while not getting the same in return,

 

[old.Tohtori]

You can be freedom based all you like, but stereotyping and prejudices are part of the human nature, don't think it's something you can change( at least not in the near future ).

You also can't say that it is good or bad.
Anyways, what I meant is that I wanna continue with my quiet life and I don't think I wanna waste energy to adapt to another culture that comes from outside.

It is something you can change, by not being prejucide and stereotyping, by teaching your kids not to be, by making ti a class in school, by teaching about other religions etc etc etc. Not by saying "My timmy will not learn about some rockthrowing countries ways!"

There is no such thing as good or bad in the long run, but i can say that if people weren't prejudice and stereotyping, we would most likely, LIKELY be a bit better off.

You COULD continue with your quiet life all you want, even if middle-eastern culture was mixed in. Like i said above; mixing does not mean changing your ways.

 

[noblok]

I'm sorry but you cant just say that because we are democratic/free society's people should be allowed to do what they want (within reason)

Are you telling me we shouldn't?

I never said it's not a belgian thing to do, as you already live in Belgium, you're not someone that comes from abroad and starts enforcing their laws on the locals. I'm not against minarets, I'm against the entire concept of us giving/being tolerant while not getting the same in return,

So, how does this work in practice: I as a Belgian am allowed to build a minaret, but the son of a Pakistani immigrant isn't? Different laws for different people? Does that really seem like a good idea?

Also: we are getting the same in return. The same laws apply to everyone. Just as mulsims have the freedom to build a mosque, christians have the freedom to build a church.

 

[Tuthmes]

There's a difference, yes, but instead of outright banning, limitations on duration and loudness make more sense. (It also doesn't last anywhere near 30 minutes and I've heard churchbells who go off for a couple of minutes.)

Indeed.

 

[Tuthmes]

But since you think i'm doing it just for the sake of argument, snip snap, done with you.

Thank god.

 

[aika]

Also where is this free alcohol he speaketh of?

Also there's a big problem with some western people thinking that mixing other cultures into western culture means that all women will be covered up and mosques with shiny golden globetops will pop up in central london, while men scream from building tops at you.

No, that means they are free to practise their own religion with the same limitations that anyone else has.

So if they choose to cover their women up, fine.
If they choose to rent out a place to practise their religion, go ahead.

Mixing culture does not mean that your culture dies.

It means that it will die in the long run, if the other culture is more dominant and not tolerant

 

[aika]

Are you telling me we shouldn't?


So, how does this work in practice: I as a Belgian am allowed to build a minaret, but the son of a Pakistani immigrant isn't? Different laws for different people? Does that really seem like a good idea?

Also: we are getting the same in return. The same laws apply to everyone. Just as mulsims have the freedom to build a mosque, christians have the freedom to build a church.

It's not different rules, its democracy, if the majority accepts building of minarets by anyone then its fine. If you want to build one as an individual, it doesn't matter if you're a pakistani or a local as long as there's no law that forbids you from doing it.

I won't even comment on the last line, because its simply ridiculous. You're not getting anything in return as you were able to build churches before anyway. When you're able to build a church in a muslim country then it will be the same.

 

[noblok]

It's not different rules, its democracy, if the majority accepts building of minarets by anyone then its fine. If you want to build one as an individual, it doesn't matter if you're a pakistani or a local as long as there's no law that forbids you from doing it.

OK, that wasn't really clear from your original posts, but if that's your opinion, then that's fine by me.

However,in tha case, what did you mean with:

I'm against the entire concept of us giving/being tolerant while not getting the same in return,

I at first undrstood this as you saying we shouldn't allow people to build minarets, but apparently I misunderstood you there.

 

[aika]

It is something you can change, by not being prejucide and stereotyping, by teaching your kids not to be, by making ti a class in school, by teaching about other religions etc etc etc. Not by saying "My timmy will not learn about some rockthrowing countries ways!"

There is no such thing as good or bad in the long run, but i can say that if people weren't prejudice and stereotyping, we would most likely, LIKELY be a bit better off.

You COULD continue with your quiet life all you want, even if middle-eastern culture was mixed in. Like i said above; mixing does not mean changing your ways.

You can't guarantee it though, how do you know your ways won't be changed in 10 years? 20 years? 40 years? Why take risks ?

 

[aika]

OK, that wasn't really clear from your original posts, but if that's your opinion, then that's fine by me.

However,in tha case, what did you mean with:
I at first undrstood this as you saying we shouldn't allow people to build minarets, but apparently I misunderstood you there.

like I said, The day I can build a church without problems in Iran is the day I will give up my house for a minaret.
Also I'm quite sure you can build a minaret in Belgium anyway? At least you can here without problems.

 

[aika]

Back on topic: I'm quite sure the Iranian navy can't leave the persian gulf ( as its blockaded by US carrier groups).

And even if it happens I can't see ww3 coming anywhere soon tbh

 

[noblok]

like I said, The day I can build a church without problems in Iran is the day I will give up my house for a minaret.

So, what is it you're saying? Because I'm getting a mixed message here...

1. People should be allowed to build minarets in European countries if a democratically elected parliament passes a law which allows theml to do so.

2. People should be allowed to build minarets in European countries if and only if people in Iran are allowed to build churches?

 

[aika]

1 is how the law goes and should go

2 is how I personally think

my personal opinion won't change the law

 

[noblok]

OK, so now that's clear: I'm arguing against your opinion and not the law. So... In your opinion: should I, as a Belgian of several generations be allowed to build a mosque with minaret in Belgium if I'd like to do so?

 

[old.Tohtori]

It means that it will die in the long run, if the other culture is more dominant and not tolerant

You can't guarantee it though, how do you know your ways won't be changed in 10 years? 20 years? 40 years? Why take risks ?

Think you answered your own statement there. You can't quarantee anything.

Why take the risk? Because if you only want to live in perfect safety of all change and close yourself from the rest of the world, you shouldn't even be on the internet in case you catch the 4chan virus and start drawing boobs on milkboxes.

Everything and everyone aren't out to get you and change you.

 

[Ch3tan]

I'm sorry but you cant just say that because we are democratic/free society's people should be allowed to do what they want (within reason) but because their countries are intolerant backwaters (im generalising here, I know theyre not all like that) that we cant expect the same priviledges if the roles were reversed.

its all take and no give, your telling me they should be allowed to build minarets, teach the koran in mixed race schools etc, yet if a bulk of us moved out there dont fucking think about building churches and make sure your wife/female children are covered up.

thats bollocks.

I did not say that. Please read what I said rather than skimming it and making Daily Mail style sensationalist comments on it.

We live in a democracy that promotes freedom, as such if any group wants a change of rules or culture they can use the democratic system to try and achieve their aims. Just because we don't like what they are saying does not mean they can not say it or try to get it.

I don't expect them to allow churches, alcohol etc, we live in a secular country, they do not. Religion dominates politics in most Islamic countries. That is my point, the moment we undermine our key values to silence, ban, or deny anyone their democratic voice, we legitimise what the Eastern world thinks of the Western.

 

[Job]

I'm watching tribal brides right now in Turkey and the girl is living with a nomadic tribe with strong religous and cultural traits.
Then they all go to a wider family gathering and everyone else is just like us and they stand out like neanderthals.
Times are a changing and the western culture will win cos their culture is outdated and considerably more basic than ours...good riddance to it.

 

[aika]

OK, so now that's clear: I'm arguing against your opinion and not the law. So... In your opinion: should I, as a Belgian of several generations be allowed to build a mosque with minaret in Belgium if I'd like to do so?

no, because it doesnt belong in Belgium.

 

[Ch3tan]

Who decides it does not belong in Belgium? If noblok and his friends, associates etc converted to Islam and as Belgian citizens want to build a place of worship, why should they be stopped assuming they are within the law and planning permission etc is granted? Simply because you think the Eastern and Western worlds cannot get on?

 

[aika]

Who decides it does not belong in Belgium? If noblok and his friends, associates etc converted to Islam and as Belgian citizens want to build a place of worship, why should they be stopped assuming they are within the law and planning permission etc is granted? Simply because you think the Eastern and Western worlds cannot get on?

I think it doesnt belong in a modern western society.

Like I said this is my personal opinion which doesn't decide anything. I do not enforce it on other people.

 

[noblok]

no, because it doesnt belong in Belgium.

Well, glad that's settled. In that case I can repeat myself: "apparently I shouldn't be allowed to build a mosque with minnaret, because it's not a 'Belgian' thing to do."

You're basically defining a national identity and everyone is supposed to fit this preconceived mould. If they don't, they're alien elements which should be outlawed. Even if they're born in said country and don't know anything else, they should be forced into certain cultural patterns, because that's the dominant culture.

That is fascism in a nutshell.

 

[Ch3tan]

I'm very glad the majority of people don't seem to support your extremist view aika, or we'd have idiots like the BNP in power all over Europe. Democracy is great

 

[aika]

Well, glad that's settled. In that case I can repeat myself: "apparently I shouldn't be allowed to build a mosque with minnaret, because it's not a 'Belgian' thing to do."

You're basically defining a national identity and everyone is supposed to fit this preconceived mould. If they don't, they're alien elements which should be outlawed. Even if they're born in said country and don't know anything else, they should be forced into certain cultural patterns, because that's the dominant culture.

That is fascism in a nutshell.

And you think your ideology is somehow superior ?
There's no good or bad, right or wrong, get off your high horse.
I only have a problem with Islam which does not in my opinion fit into modern society, if you want to worship budhaism or induism or whatever I have no problem with that.

Give Islam 50-60 more years to become more "westernized" then assimilate them if you want.

 

[aika]

I'm very glad the majority of people don't seem to support your extremist view aika, or we'd have idiots like the BNP in power all over Europe. Democracy is great

And you honestly think Nazism will not rise in Europe in 30-40-60 years? I sincerely doubt it, let some 2-3 financial crises happen and you will get 1933 again.

History has a habit of repeating itself.

You can tag me however you like, I do not have a problem with a certain race or ethnic minority.