Crush Shadowblades! Muhahaha

[Void959]

Oops sorry, had to type the quotes bit manually as I was already in the edit window

 

[Vladamir]

i think the changes are a bit overdone, but im not complaining. ns' have become sooo fotm the past ~half year or so its annoying

much more fun if theres only a handful out, and fights are always hard and anyways, ns might get a lot of love in the next part of the patch, who knows really?

Noone till mythic takes another hit from the crack-pipe coated in Lsd

 

[Kaun_IA]

hib rf is weak ot crush... but i have it capped enyways so dont think it will be a HUGE matter

 

[Azathrim]

Just been reading through VN, and it's funny to see how everyone thinks Sb's will be zomgwtfpwn top-of-the-foodchain-all-the-time.

Theres a RUT on these abilities for a reason, people will rely on these as excuses if they lose. Bludgeon is the next remedy if it goes live the way it is

Why so?

SB's can use Bludgeon 10% of the time.

Infils/NS's can use Slash 100% of the time if specced so.

Only if Bludgeon is up, can SB's match Infils/NS's damage type advantage with artifact weapons. That's 10% of the time.

 

[Void959]

Still some disparities on the general level:

- Buffbot disparity (spec af/haste)
- Off-evade stun (less of an issue with the 3sec reactionary change)
- Side stun (for hibs)
- Stealth support (Minstrels)
- HP advantage arguable not living up to 2.5spec or less so the NS magic.

All in all though, I think these are great improvements to Shadowblades. Personally I don't think all the issues have been fixed. It's a great leap towards that goal though.

I still think SBs will be slightly ahead, though I am by no means saying they'll be OP.

"- Buffbot disparity (spec af/haste)" - Not a big issue, most top stealthers use AF charges already, its a pain but at the top level its taken for granted. Same goes for haste, though its even easier with haste pots.

"- Off-evade stun (less of an issue with the 3sec reactionary change)
- Side stun (for hibs)" - Fair enough

"- Stealth support (Minstrels)" - Not an issue 1v1, or generally 2v1/2v2, only those who regularly zerg will find this an issue

"- HP advantage arguable not living up to 2.5spec or less so the NS magic." - Personally I agree it doesn't make up for the 2.5 spec points, but think it does outdo the NS magic.

But then you have:

- Bludgeon: Not significant vs visibles, quite a big thing in assassin 1v1, as all assassins are vulnerable to crush. Useable virtually every fight in practice, this means they can use artis but still get the advantage of heaters, with DR buffs the damage may even be better than heaters outright.

- Infils have to spec 50 base thrust to get evade stun, meaning a lot of practically wasted points if they use CS styles, suddenly those 2.5 spec points are suddenly a lot less effective.

- Infils and shades both have to spec thrust damage to get evade stun, harder templating, worse arties etc, and with recent poison changes, no longer an advantage against debuff poisons.


So personally I think the SB is ahead for now at least, it basically comes down to evade stuns which already have a high cost, and 2.5 spec points/magic vs bludgeon and more hits. I haven't included PH in this as it seems it's going to be changed, but atm this is also a VERY significant advantage in assassin 1v1.

 

[Vladamir]

Why so?

SB's can use Bludgeon 10% of the time.

True, although i'd imagine quote a large proportion of this timer will be ran down by either resting from the fight it's used in, or rebuffing/waiting for res sick if you lose/get zerged or whatever.

Infils/NS's can use Slash 100% of the time if specced so.

Personally, i prefer thrust to slash, DF is only a 5s stun but it's still a stun at the end of the day, slash seems a little dull to me, using what, 1, 2 slash styles, rest CS?.

Only if Bludgeon is up, can SB's match Infils/NS's damage type advantage with artifact weapons. That's 10% of the time.

Like i said above, i'm guessing that Bludgeon will be up more often than not for fights because the timer is being run down in other, non-combat situations.

But my guess is most SB's will argue that to win a difficult fight it'll involve using both Bludgeon and Remedy. However 5 minutes isn't exactly a long time, so it'll be far more widely used.

My personal opinion is to give inf's something additional (NS's got spells, nothing spectacular but still something, Sb's got Bludgeon), to at least compensate for this. I agree Sb's needed something extra, but i don't think anyone expected anything this substantial.

Although it looks like the stealth war is regressing to who's timers are up and who's aren't now :/

I don't think SB's are top of the food chain without any competition by any means, it'll definately prove for more interesting and exciting fights if nothing else

 

[Melachi]

Bludgeon is the next remedy if it goes live the way it is

Wtf? Do you guys have any fucking clue at all? This ability doesnt give us an advantage, its brings us up to par.

You spec slash, you have the advantage against our armor, we use bludgeon, we have an advantage against your armor, its now equal.

i think the changes are a bit overdone, but im not complaining.

Whats been overdone? Balancing the armor tables to a degree? Balancing Remedy to a degree? Balancing Str/Con? These things have been made EVEN, not given a SB advantage.

And dont mention PH, its gonna go, and its totally overrated anyway (inc posts of how much damage some PH charge absorbed from PA, 2 SOM procs > PH throughout a whole fight).

You just upset you cant pop Remedy + Battler + PS, without it being used back against you I think.

 

[Aiteal]

You spec slash, you have the advantage against our armor, we use bludgeon, we have an advantage against your armor, its now equal.

That's the thing, hib assassins 'spec it' as you said, and in doing so to gain a damage bonus against 1 opponent, they deal with low STR starting races and loose the evade stun from diamondback.

SB's get a much better starting race for weilding str based weapons, get to keep an evade stun (2nd in chain I'll grant you) and now have a damage bonus against both opposing realms' assassins all for free.

If they had just nerfed the malice proc frequency/debuff amount then there would have been no need for this.

Not that I really care tbh, DR abs buff and high PD with champ weapon or melee resists buff will counter this.

 

[Melachi]

That's the thing, hib assassins 'spec it' as you said, and in doing so to gain a damage bonus against 1 opponent, they deal with low STR starting races and loose the evade stun from diamondback.

2 opponents, Hunters/SB's

You guys have to spec it, fair enough, but we got our own drawbacks too.
Take for example our Chapion Weapon, with its lovely debuff. You think when we use Bludgeon our debuff is gonna change to crush? No. And if you guys are so caught up about the fact that you have to make a decision on which damage type, talk to mythic about adding a hammer line for us. Id respec to it in a second, dont care about having slash damage.

SB's get a much better starting race for weilding str based weapons, get to keep an evade stun (2nd in chain I'll grant you) and now have a damage bonus against both opposing realms' assassins all for free.

1st) Tell that race advantage to the kobolds, im sure they will love you.
2nd) If the race thing is such a problem for NS's, go spec pierce, and put up with using LW's like SB's have had to do for so long.
3rd) Evade stun? You got easymode bassicaly an anytimer side stun available to pretty much any spec NS.

If they had just nerfed the malice proc frequency/debuff amount then there would have been no need for this.

Thats bullshit and you know it, most NS's dont spec slash so they can use Malice, they spec it for Easymode against mid stealthers.

Not that I really care tbh, DR abs buff and high PD with champ weapon or melee resists buff will counter this.

Well then wtf are you talking about.

Its funny how afraid some people are of balance. Time to roll a warlock m8?

 

[Vladamir]

Wtf? Do you guys have any fucking clue at all? This ability doesnt give us an advantage, its brings us up to par.

You spec slash, you have the advantage against our armor, we use bludgeon, we have an advantage against your armor, its now equal.

From my point of view it's an advantage for you. My inf is/was thrust spec, so i've got no advantage over you. So once you turn your damage to crush, you've got an advantage over me, correct?

 

[Melachi]

From my point of view it's an advantage for you. My inf is/was thrust spec, so i've got no advantage over you. So once you turn your damage to crush, you've got an advantage over me, correct?

Yeah thats correct. Now bullshit me not, you say your inf was/is Thrust spec. You actually gonna stay thrust, if 1.82d arrives, as it is atm?

Yeah, didn't think so.

 

[Void959]

You spec slash, you have the advantage against our armor, we use bludgeon, we have an advantage against your armor, its now equal.

Bladeshades have +10% against against SBs but 0% against infils, slash infils have +10% against SBs, but -10% against NSs. You'll get +10% against both, thats the difference.

 

[Jox]

1.82 feels like a good patch so far.

 

[Melachi]

Bladeshades have +10% against against SBs but 0% against infils, slash infils have +10% against SBs, but -10% against NSs. You'll get +10% against both, thats the difference.

Oh so your concerned for everyones benefit?

Let me put it this way.

Your an SB

If you face a slash inf, your 10% weak to him.
If you face a slash ns, your 10% weak to him.

You use Bludgeon.

You face a ns, he's 10% weak to you.
You face an inf, he's 10% weak to you.



Dont like Bludgeon the way it is? Try get it changed so SB's lose this ability but gain hammer spec.

Dont like that idea? How about giving SB's equal leather as Nightshades.

What dont like that either?

Your hard to please.

 

[Vladamir]

Yeah thats correct. Now bullshit me not, you say your inf was/is Thrust spec. You actually gonna stay thrust, if 1.82d arrives, as it is atm?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Wrong.

Slash stinks, doesn't appeal to me, no fun hitting against resistant armour on high PD archers. On top of that he's saracen, so even more fun

Thrust at least gives me a stun style amongst other things i prefer about it, so don't put words in my mouth next time.

Thanks.

 

[Void959]

You face a peirce shade or thrust infil, you're 10% resistant to them...



Oh I see, every NS and infil out there is slash specced, and none use LWs anyway, right?

 

[Puppet]

Wtf? Do you guys have any fucking clue at all? This ability doesnt give us an advantage, its brings us up to par.

Wrong, you get 2 damage-types for the price of one. And you say it brings us up to par, but it brings you up to par with slash-INF and blades-NS how they perform against you. They dont perform well against their Alb (or Hib) counterpart. Not to mention people speccing thrust/pierce are now (again) facing another disadvantage.

You spec slash, you have the advantage against our armor, we use bludgeon, we have an advantage against your armor, its now equal.

Whats been overdone? Balancing the armor tables to a degree? Balancing Remedy to a degree? Balancing Str/Con? These things have been made EVEN, not given a SB advantage.

Your armour hasnt changed, you are simply given two damage-types for the price of one. Face a hero? Soz Im slash. Face a Blademaster? Soz Im crush. INF and NS dont have this option, unless I can stop the rest of the game, run to the trainer, buy a respec and then press PLAY again so I can fight with slashers (or thrusters)

And dont mention PH, its gonna go, and its totally overrated anyway (inc posts of how much damage some PH charge absorbed from PA, 2 SOM procs > PH throughout a whole fight).

Aye, its overrated. Its just plain shit to absorb 30% damage per hit, oh wait the armour-tables is only 10% - please dont make up stories how it is overrated, I have Winged Helmet on my Ranger, I *KNOW* what it does.

You just upset you cant pop Remedy + Battler + PS, without it being used back against you I think.

Lets just list it now:

* I cant use Two-Handers, you can
* I cant get two mundane weapon-types for 'the price' of one. Yes, I can spec for either of em, but not both at the same time, you can.
* I cant get Style-reduction, you can.
* I cant get 70 STR 70 CON race, you can.
* I dont get more HP then other assassins (to compare it fair, my Elf with 75 CON, 210 hits and Toughness II I have 1850 hp - u do the math)

And please cut the 'Slash rocks us'-argument. Yes, ur weak to it, but I start with 40 STR. You start with 70 (as Norse). And if a INF goes Slash, he rocks on SB, but I can tell you I whipe the floor with Slash INF's as Nightshade. SB's with Bludgeon dont face any downside anymore.

Also, I always hear SB's whine over their slash-weakness. But when I fight em with piercers, I never hear how they are resistant to it. LOL U USE HEATERS. Yep, I use heaters... guess what, so do SB's.

 

[Puppet]

Dont like Bludgeon the way it is? Try get it changed so SB's lose this ability but gain hammer spec.

Dont like that idea? How about giving SB's equal leather as Nightshades.

What dont like that either?

Your hard to please.

Why not demand thrust-spec actually as SB? And Im happy to give you NS/INF leather, thats more balanced then giving you guys two damage-types.

 

[Neffneff]

Wrong, you get 2 damage-types for the price of one. And you say it brings us up to par, but it brings you up to par with slash-INF and blades-NS how they perform against you. They dont perform well against their Alb (or Hib) counterpart. Not to mention people speccing thrust/pierce are now (again) facing another disadvantage.



Your armour hasnt changed, you are simply given two damage-types for the price of one. Face a hero? Soz Im slash. Face a Blademaster? Soz Im crush. INF and NS dont have this option, unless I can stop the rest of the game, run to the trainer, buy a respec and then press PLAY again so I can fight with slashers (or thrusters)



Aye, its overrated. Its just plain shit to absorb 30% damage per hit, oh wait the armour-tables is only 10% - please dont make up stories how it is overrated, I have Winged Helmet on my Ranger, I *KNOW* what it does.



Lets just list it now:

* I cant use Two-Handers, you can
* I cant get two mundane weapon-types for 'the price' of one. Yes, I can spec for either of em, but not both at the same time, you can.
* I cant get Style-reduction, you can.
* I cant get 70 STR 70 CON race, you can.
* I dont get more HP then other assassins (to compare it fair, my Elf with 75 CON, 210 hits and Toughness II I have 1850 hp - u do the math)

And please cut the 'Slash rocks us'-argument. Yes, ur weak to it, but I start with 40 STR. You start with 70 (as Norse). And if a INF goes Slash, he rocks on SB, but I can tell you I whipe the floor with Slash INF's as Nightshade. SB's with Bludgeon dont face any downside anymore.

Also, I always hear SB's whine over their slash-weakness. But when I fight em with piercers, I never hear how they are resistant to it. LOL U USE HEATERS. Yep, I use heaters... guess what, so do SB's.

pretty much agree with everything said there. having the ability to swap between slash/crush dmg, WITHOUT having to respec skills, or EVEN make a template that allows weapon swapping (so another lil advantage being better templates for same effect) is jsut utter madness, i would be perfectly happy for SBs to be able to spec for crush weapons, and use crush weapons as an option...but to be able to flip side to side at a whim is just ridiculous.

 

[Vladamir]

pretty much agree with everything said there. having the ability to swap between slash/crush dmg, WITHOUT having to respec skills, or EVEN make a template that allows weapon swapping (so another lil advantage being better templates for same effect) is jsut utter madness, i would be perfectly happy for SBs to be able to spec for crush weapons, and use crush weapons as an option...but to be able to flip side to side at a whim is just ridiculous.

What he said, though i'd rather have them spec thrust over crush for obvious reasons

 

[Oboy]

i agree SB´s need a slite boost in performance
but these changes will just give SB´s 2 instawinbuttons thats up in almost every fight
A tweaked out SB rr7+ with some brains can perform pretty well today against most stealthers, i cant image how they will after these changes

 

[illu]

I still think they are going to give Infils some abilities that will probably wipe the floor with NS's and SB's.

And I was wondering whether all these things stack?
AF
SoM
PH
then you see enemy
Battler2
Now can you Remedy+Bludgeon?



I still think most fights will be even. NS's that have had it so good are moaning because the other assassins have caught up with them. PH on sb's makes a difference, but a small one, as it's hard to have up at the right time, and template sacrifices have to be made. I still think Infils are going to be the kings of stealthers, because they hit really hard now, and that is when we could debuff them. Now with remedy up, Infils will be hitting for full power the whole fight which will be nasty.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Until we have the patch here and can play with all the new tools, we won't really know the real impact of the changes. NS's 2 new spells - how is this going to affect fights? Champion Abilities also may play a factor.

I also can't see that many SB's going 2h spec. The old Critblades were 1-trick ponies, which gets boring pretty quick. I think people will have to decide whether they want to be assassin killers, visible killers or a mixture of the 2.

Oli - Illu

 

[Aiteal]

2 opponents, Hunters/SB's

You guys have to spec it, fair enough, but we got our own drawbacks too.
Take for example our Chapion Weapon, with its lovely debuff. You think when we use Bludgeon our debuff is gonna change to crush? No. And if you guys are so caught up about the fact that you have to make a decision on which damage type, talk to mythic about adding a hammer line for us. Id respec to it in a second, dont care about having slash damage.


1st) Tell that race advantage to the kobolds, im sure they will love you.
2nd) If the race thing is such a problem for NS's, go spec pierce, and put up with using LW's like SB's have had to do for so long.
3rd) Evade stun? You got easymode bassicaly an anytimer side stun available to pretty much any spec NS.



Thats bullshit and you know it, most NS's dont spec slash so they can use Malice, they spec it for Easymode against mid stealthers.



Well then wtf are you talking about.

Its funny how afraid some people are of balance. Time to roll a warlock m8?

Sorry, 2 opponents yes, and a penalty against Inf's.
Then now SB's have an advantage against 3 classes for free if we are gonna bring archers into the equation, and no penalty against any assassin.
Sorry, but I can't see many people using the champ weapons when ToA offers better physical weapons, they proc very infrequently, but let me get this straight, you want to do crush damage with a slash weapon and you also want that slash weapon to debuff crush?

Kobolds get screwed yes as far as STR is concerned, but my point was that Mids get the choice of a better starting class for using str based weapons, that point remains valid.

The WS/CON poision changes have made pierce less attractive for many, maxing 2 stats in your template instead of one for no real benefit once a debuff lands made me spec slash recently on my elf with no starting str in anticipation of teh next patch.

Side stun, yeah, silly that it's so easy to get off due to lag, but I don't strafe in combat, if I don't take the time to land it properly from stealth I refuse to exploit lag to get it off once the fight has started, they could remove it for all I care.

How many NS's were slash before ToA? (I can think of only a few NS's that were known for being slash before ToA)
How many NS's (and even elf/luri rangers) are slash now?
Malice/Battler made slash Fotm not mid armour tables.

Really
Was there any need for the warlock comment?
Warlock is a mid class, so why would I roll one?
I'm not afraid of balance.
I play my ranger pretty much exclusively, first class I got to lvl50, and will keep playing it no matter what changes mythic makes, when changes like this occur in the game I will simply respec RA's etc and change my playstyle to stay competitive.

 

[Jox]

...

lol, much BS here...

The bludgeon-ability aint even official yet and we dont know if it will go live... ever.

The drama-queens are hysterical... as usual.

SBs have been worthless since 1.62 and when they(sorry we) finally get some love, the rest of the stealth-community shit in their pants.

Fucking awesome.

 

[Melachi]

Wrong.

Slash stinks, doesn't appeal to me, no fun hitting against resistant armour on high PD archers. On top of that he's saracen, so even more fun

Thrust at least gives me a stun style amongst other things i prefer about it, so don't put words in my mouth next time.

Thanks.

Slash stinks? ok whatever.
If they have high PD, then your better off using a LW anyway regardless of physcial weapon you cna use.
Saracen? Same str as a Kobby, plus you got a nice 5% heat resist.
Stay thrust if you want, but you cant complain then, just like a Critblade whining now that hes having a tough time, when he could make it easier for himself.

You face a peirce shade or thrust infil, you're 10% resistant to them...

Oh I see, every NS and infil out there is slash specced, and none use LWs anyway, right?

Ask for SB's armor to be changed to hibs then.

Wrong, you get 2 damage-types for the price of one. And you say it brings us up to par, but it brings you up to par with slash-INF and blades-NS how they perform against you. They dont perform well against their Alb (or Hib) counterpart. Not to mention people speccing thrust/pierce are now (again) facing another disadvantage.

Or hey, ask for Bludgeon for hibs/infs also. Then its all even steven's ?

Your armour hasnt changed, you are simply given two damage-types for the price of one. Face a hero? Soz Im slash. Face a Blademaster? Soz Im crush. INF and NS dont have this option, unless I can stop the rest of the game, run to the trainer, buy a respec and then press PLAY again so I can fight with slashers (or thrusters)

Hi legendary weapons, what us Sb's have depended on.

Aye, its overrated. Its just plain shit to absorb 30% damage per hit, oh wait the armour-tables is only 10% - please dont make up stories how it is overrated, I have Winged Helmet on my Ranger, I *KNOW* what it does.

Actually, current armor tables are a 20% advantage over SB, and they also dont last 5minutes of every 15.

* I cant use Two-Handers, you can Oh wow, they are sub par dps wise when compared to Dual wielding, and only now do they actually recieve the benefit of the 2h bonus for PA's. Something they didnt get until now.
* I cant get two mundane weapon-types for 'the price' of one. Yes, I can spec for either of em, but not both at the same time, you can.Ask for bludgeon also then, or some other Armor table fix that you didnt give a shit about until now
* I cant get Style-reduction, you can.I agree with you here, but I honestly think its gonna go, and I think it should as I have said several times before
* I cant get 70 STR 70 CON race, you can.Seriously, I dont think any SB would mind if Celts could become NS's, and all current NS got a race respec, but I doubt it will happen so need another solution.
* I dont get more HP then other assassins (to compare it fair, my Elf with 75 CON, 210 hits and Toughness II I have 1850 hp - u do the math)You get DD's and now an insta DoT that REALLY DO make up for the extra HP a Shadowblade gets if you do the math.

I dont get a sidestun
I dont get easy more PvE, for uber ml10 items, rare drops ect..

Why not demand thrust-spec actually as SB? And Im happy to give you NS/INF leather, thats more balanced then giving you guys two damage-types.

Because it would do nothing for us and you know it would. Armor on the other hand would, and is something SB's have wanted for ages.

pretty much agree with everything said there. having the ability to swap between slash/crush dmg, WITHOUT having to respec skills, or EVEN make a template that allows weapon swapping (so another lil advantage being better templates for same effect) is jsut utter madness, i would be perfectly happy for SBs to be able to spec for crush weapons, and use crush weapons as an option...but to be able to flip side to side at a whim is just ridiculous.

I actually dont think you would be happy if SB's got crush weapons.

Sorry, 2 opponents yes, and a penalty against Inf's.

lol, time to read up on armor tables m8.
Infs are neutral to slash.

 

[Neffneff]

I actually dont think you would be happy if SB's got crush weapons.

yes, i would b happy. SBs needed some love, but htis is silly. okay so you'd gain advantage against infils/shades/rangers, BUT if this ability goes live you gain that advantage, and every advantage from slash dmg type, all for free, whenever you want, no need to respec, no need to make a swapping template. its over the top..and you know it.

EDIT: you do realise with the ability to have slash or crush whenever you want, that you have a weapon type that EVERY SINGLE hib armour is vulnerable to, as well as alb leather/plate, and chain/studded you can b neutral to? you would never face any armour resistant to you..unlike every other assins, or indeed most melee classes in the game.

 

[Jergiot]

its not enough, they need more, if they get more love maybe they stop the bitching and start to solo abit instead of camping bled bridge 24/7 with 20 others.

 

[Aiteal]

lol, time to read up on armor tables m8.
Infs are neutral to slash.

So out of my whole post where I take the time to offer an alternative point of view to each of your points you point that out and offer no counter arguement?

Well, I guess thats me told then m8!!!!lolzzz

 

[Littles]

I dont really care about the crush advantage, what i do care about is the PH needs to be taken away from SB's. Thank god it is a low utility item and most SB's are foolish enough to not put it in there template in favour for that extra 5 str cap.

Try to look on the bright side though guys, assasins have needed a boost for ages and at least they realise this and are doing something about it.

 

[Andrilyn]

You can give a SB 100 toys and they will still think they are on the bottom end of the food chain, even pre LA nerf when they could 1 hit kill all casters and even some support they said the same thing.
I find it funny though that people actually get some buffs in their class and then whine about the things they got added (not only SB's but all classes that have been given something in 1.81 or 1.82).
You could have gotten nothing so be glad with what you do get.