Crime in the UK

[Cyfr]

Send all the chavs to some small island without food, instant 80+% cut in crime.

 

[Hawkwind]

Pathological case. She´s obviously insane and needs a therapy. She needs to be locked away so she´s no longer a treat for other people, but killing someone because he´s ill is not the way to handle that sort of stuff and frankly, by killing her, we would just prove that we don´t understand how to cope with mentally insane people. There are many kinds and degrees of mental defects. Some are autoagressive, some aggressive, some not. Would we kill someone who´s trying to cut his ownwrists? Then why would we want to kill someone who´s suffering from another variation of mental defect?

So you would lock her up for the rest of her life? Or just until you consider she is well and not a danger? How do you think the family of the mudered woman would feel about that?

It goes to my second point that the focus is on the killer not the victim. I wonder how you would feel if that was your wife that she hacked up! I respect your view and understand it. However, imo there has to be a point where you say sorry that's just too bad you deserve to forfeit your right to be around people. We seem to have become fixated with trying to cure defects of the brain, that basically we still know nothing about. Whose to say that after treatment and release in 10 years time this same woman does not do it again. There is no proof whatsoever that these defects can be 100% reliably fixed.

We´re not focusing enough on psychologically handicapped people, that´s why cases like this one are happening at all. This one guy in germany who went to school and shot dozens of people before killing himself.... he was *known* to have psychological problems. But noone seemed to give a damn until it´s been too late.

Agreed, the guy needed help and didn't get it. One question, where did he get the gun?

 

[Hansmoleman]

Send all the chavs to some small island without food, instant 80+% cut in crime.

your just asking for a place called Australia 2 arent you?

 

[SilverHood]

We need labour gangs introduced.... none of that community service bollocks.
Either that, or send them to join the army.

6 months in a banana republic being shot at by rebels and local government forces will make them understand the errors of their ways.
Otherwise they get sent back.

World peace. /Yay

 

[bult]

Yeah im sure sending criminals to the army and train em in using all sorts of weapons is a great idea. After you trained em you can also put them in various situations that will break down there already weak mind so they become totally crazy and kill 20 people when they come home.

 

[Morchaoron]

[QUOTE='Thorwyn[B&Q]This one guy in germany who went to scholl and shot dozends opf people before killing himself.... he was *known* to have psychological problems. But noone seemed to give a damn until it´s been too late.[/QUOTE]


They cant force you to be 'helped' unless you are threat to either yourself or others (in some other cases aswell, but they didnt apply to this guy either).


In his leisure time, Steinhäuser frequently watched violent videos and listened to music glorifying violence. Der Spiegel magazine wrote that he had a tendency to listen to “macabre music and play blood thirsty computer killer-games.” One of his favourite games was the violent “Counterstrike.” According to Bild am Sonntag, he described himself as “Satan’s son” in Internet chat rooms. His favourite band was reportedly the American group Slip-knot, whose latest CD is entitled “People=S**t”. According to Der Spiegel, the band’s musicians “carry armbands like the Nazis”.

--

As preliminary police investigations determined already the day after the massacre, it was not a wild, run-amok incident, but had been prepared systematically over nearly a year. Steinhäuser had engaged in intense target practice at an Erfurt gun club, but worse, his mind had been conditioned by his obsession with killer video/computer games, such as "Ninja," "Doom," and "Counterstrike" (produced by the notorious firm, Sierra Entertainment). When he carried out his massacre, he was dressed in black with a black mask, imitating the Ninja warriors found in such killer games. A police raid on Steinhäuser's room found many such killer video games, some downloaded from the Internet, on his personal computer. Steinhäuser also had plenty of hate comics, as well as hate-promoting heavy metal music. One of those heavy metal songs contains a phrase that says, "Kill your teacher with a pump-gun."



A bit of a weirdo? perhaps, like many people i know, but is this enough to see him as a threat and force him to be helped? according to the law, no, and you cant help them if they dont want to.

 

[Hawkwind]

A bit of a weirdo? perhaps, like many people i know, but is this enough to see him as a threat and force him to be helped? according to the law, no, and you cant help them if they dont want to.

Sounds like the German Police are at slightly at fault for not interviewing him properly for a gun licence. Also, part of that process should be an interview in the persons own enviroment. Possibly submit to a search of their computer. I know some people will say, "no way, invasion of privacy and all that". But, the fact remains that he wanted a licence for a gun! If part of that process is to review your computer files/home enviroment then its your choice, either accept it or don't ask for a gun licence.

 

[yaruar]

They cant force you to be 'helped' unless you are threat to either yourself or others (in some other cases aswell, but they didnt apply to this guy either).


In his leisure time, Steinhäuser frequently watched violent videos and listened to music glorifying violence. Der Spiegel magazine wrote that he had a tendency to listen to “macabre music and play blood thirsty computer killer-games.” One of his favourite games was the violent “Counterstrike.” According to Bild am Sonntag, he described himself as “Satan’s son” in Internet chat rooms. His favourite band was reportedly the American group Slip-knot, whose latest CD is entitled “People=S**t”. According to Der Spiegel, the band’s musicians “carry armbands like the Nazis”.

SOunds like almost everyone i grew up with.

Now, where did i leave that semi automatic.

 

[Thorwyn]

So you would lock her up for the rest of her life? Or just until you consider she is well and not a danger? How do you think the family of the mudered woman would feel about that?

I`m not a psychologist or surgeon, so evaluating and judging other people´s state of mind and the possibility of their cure isn´t up to me.
But yes, I´d put her away for the rest of her life simply because of the cruelness of this particular case and because I dont´trust the chances of therapy for a forensic case like this. As for the family of the victim.... yeah, they would probably not feel happy if she´d ever come out of her cell. However, this is irrelevant. It happens all the time. People who´re driving a car while being drunk, killing an innocent person will get out of jail after a couple years. That´s essentialy the same situation for the family of the victims. There is no compensation for a lost life. Taking someon´s life is an irreversable thing. But you can´t lock them all away until they die, as hard as it may be for the families.

It goes to my second point that the focus is on the killer not the victim. I wonder how you would feel if that was your wife that she hacked up!

That´s the "if you´re being attacked" approach and it´s pretty much the point where ethics and morale are struggling with the "primitive" human instincts of revenge. When people refused to join the german army a couple of years ago, they had to go through an interview, where some people were asking them questions like "if someone would attack your wife and you had a shotgun in your hand... would you use it?". I went through this interview.
You can´t evaluate a situation when you put yourself into that point of view. If it was my wife, I´d probably kill the killer, but that doesn´t mean it´s (my) right. It would still make me a killer. I`d just be in a position where my ethics would be pushed to the limits. No disrespect for the families of the victim, but ethics and morale are an absolute things and I think that in order to evaluate a situation, you need to step back and watch all sides.

I respect your view and understand it. However, imo there has to be a point where you say sorry that's just too bad you deserve to forfeit your right to be around people.

This is where we disagree. I think there no justification whatsoever for us (sane, mentally stable and ... ok, I say it "normal") people to deny anyone the right to live and be part of our society, especially in cases where the society is partially the reason why the person in question has become what he is. Killing people like this woman doesn´t get us anywhere, I´d consider it a weak attempt of fighting symptoms. It´s like taking a painpill, while the actual disease still remains and is getting bigger.

 

[old.Tohtori]

play blood thirsty computer killer-games.” One of his favourite games was the violent “Counterstrike.”

Ahahaaaahahah!!! CS?!?!! Bloodthirsty?! Iiiiihiihiihii!!! Oh my...AHHAHHHAHAHHAAA! Oh..oh...cs..ehhehh....blood..bang...muaahahaa!!

That's like..oh my ehe....that's like calling Winnie the Pooh a cast member from lock stock and two smoking barrelsAHHAHAAAA!...ooooh my...

 

[Hawkwind]

But you can´t lock them all away until they die, as hard as it may be for the families.

Why? What that women did took planning, it was cold and calculated. Agreed she was a fruit cake. But still sane enough to fool family and friends alike. I do not see the point of locking a person up for the rest of their lives. Better to end it imo.

My sister-in-law is a Psychologist in the oxford area and we have had many conversations on this subject. The thing she does readily admit is that there is no guaranteed 100% cure for these conditions. So you lock them up for a while, try to treat them and when you think they are safe you let them out.

Was trying to remember the name of the secure unit on the Hampshire/Surrey border where the likes of Peter Sutcliff are held. A while back the company my wife worked for were invited to tender a rebranding of the facility, new logo etc. She visited the place several times. There moto was "mad not bad". She asked about Sutcliff and whether he would be released and they explained that he would never be let out. It was a political point more than anything. When she asked if he was cured they could not answer, only that he was better person.

This is where we disagree. I think there no justification whatsoever for us (sane, mentally stable and ... ok, I say it "normal") people to deny anyone the right to live and be part of our society, especially in cases where the society is partially the reason why the person in question has become what he is. Killing people like this woman doesn´t get us anywhere, I´d consider it a weak attempt of fighting symptoms. It´s like taking a painpill, while the actual disease still remains and is getting bigger.

Fair enough, I do respect your opinion. It is very similar to my sister-in-law's. She even uses the same analogy. So your in good company . Would be a sad place if everyone did agree on all the important issues.

Happy Christmas

 

[Thorwyn]

But you can´t lock them all away until they die, as hard as it may be for the families.

...just to make this clear, since it seems you´ve missed what I wanted to say: "them all" was meant to be "everyone who has killed someone once for whatever reason". Because that´s the point: for the family, it´doesn´t matter whether the killer is a weirdo or a drunk cardriver or a CS and weapon addict or if the victim was killed in self defence.

merry xmas

 

[old.Tohtori]

...just to make this clear, since it seems you´ve missed what I wanted to say: "them all" was meant to be "everyone who has killed someone once for whatever reason". Because that´s the point: for the family, it´doesn´t matter whether the killer is a weirdo or a drunk cardriver or a CS and weapon addict or if the victim was killed in self defence.

merry xmas

What about the army? if "everyone who has killed someone once for whatever reason"?

Oh and jolly santa day to you too!

 

[Thorwyn]

What about the army? if "everyone who has killed someone once for whatever reason"?

yup... as I said

 

[Kokelimonkelmedisin]

What about the army? if "everyone who has killed someone once for whatever reason"?)

is it possible to kill someone twice over?

 

[Hawkwind]

...just to make this clear, since it seems you´ve missed what I wanted to say: "them all" was meant to be "everyone who has killed someone once for whatever reason". Because that´s the point: for the family, it´doesn´t matter whether the killer is a weirdo or a drunk cardriver or a CS and weapon addict or if the victim was killed in self defence.

merry xmas

I understood, but was trying to keep within the context of the thread. Yes, I know I did genarlise a bit.

I think the case in question is special and you can't really generalise when it comes to any crime or murder. Each case should be judged on its own. When children are involved or the crime is so abhorrent then tougher penalties should be available to the courts. If there was a free vote on the death penalty in UK, and the conditions of its use were acceptable to me, I would vote YES.

Example:

Ruth Ellis - crime of passion, should not have been hung. She was not a danger to anyone else.

Marha Hindley - Should never be allowed out. She should have been put down years ago. The sick bitch helped torture and kill children.

Merry Christmas All

Dunno why, but I'm really getting into Christmas this year. Sad I know. Possible due to my 4 year old son and partly an act of defiance. Celebrating Christmas in a Muslim country. Guess you would have had to live in one to fully understand. It becomes part of your cultural identity and you cling to it. More than I ever did in the UK. In the UK it was just an excuse to get pissed.

 

[Ballard]

Anyone who thinks the death penalty is a good idea needs to sit down and have a good think about it.

Do you really want the state to have the ultimate power over life and death? This is especially pertinent because the state in most cases is controlled by middle aged weathly upper class people. Are these people capable of some great moral understanding that the rest of us arent?? Rasicm, sexism and personal biasis affect the judge/jurors as much as anyone in the general populace. Justice is a responsibilty of society yet in this day a vigilante mob is more representive of this than some old man wearing a wig handed down judgements (how freakin absurd is that a wig!!)


- The other primary flaw is philosphical. Most of the reasons and justifications so far come down to a utilatiarian judgement. i.e. killing the evil doer produces a net amount of good that outweighs the evil of the act of killing another human. The problem with any type of argument using this basis is the complexity of real life ( and the fact that this type of evaluation is subject to 'time') means these judgements cannot be made and also morally wrong actions can be justified by a utilatiarian argument. Let us say that we can kill a murderer because they are likely to kill again. We could also evaluate the statictics to justify this. lets say 40% of murderers kill again. This 40% likelyhood plus the reasurrance it will provide the victims could be said to justify the killing of the murderer. Now we look at the same statistics and from them we can also ascertain that 45% of sexually abused male children with a learning impedement and minor criminal record are likely to kill someone in the future. So is this 45% likelyhood + the reassurance is will provide the whole of society enough to justify the death penalty for these people?

If we are not killing the murderer for the net benefit this act will have for society what are we doing it for?

NB - Punishment is not in itself part of any utilitarian argument, only the outcomes of the act are.

 

[old.Tohtori]

. "everyone who has killed someone once for whatever reason".

Heeey! I'll come back to this point once more. Does't this cause a chain reaction that would cause total genocide?

Let's take it like this:

Man A kills man B.

Man C locks up man A in a cell for the remainder if his life, eventually killing the man.

Now because "everyone who has killed someone once for whatever reason should be locked up for life", man C should be locked up by man D.

Now man D "killed someone once for whatever reason" and man E must come to play.

Now this will continue until there is noone to lock up the last person who locked up the second last person.

OR...

Everyone who kills someone should lock themself up, or kill themself, which would prevent someone else killing them.

Which would mean, if you want to kill yourself, you have to kill someone else to make your suicide legal.

*phew*

Seel out.

 

[Thorwyn]

exactly that´s why it´s a bad idea as I´ve tried to explain.

q.e.d.

 

[Morchaoron]

So if you are a policeman or whatever and you put someone in prison you are no different from a kidnapper, and you should be imprisoned too then, and the guy who imprisons you too, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc? :/

 

[old.Tohtori]

exactly that´s why it´s a bad idea as I´ve tried to explain.

q.e.d.

In america you'd be a president allready

 

[Thorwyn]

So if you are a policeman or whatever and you put someone in prison you are no different from a kidnapper, and you should be imprisoned too then, and the guy who imprisons you too, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc? :/

Read this thread again guys. Try harder! You can do it! GO YOU!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Read this thread again guys. Try harder! You can do it! GO YOU!

No! We're sticking to our "everyone should be arrested for arresting people" opinions! :kissit:

 

[Thorwyn]

lol

 

[Morchaoron]

Yep!! if someone drags you from your home for doing anything they are just as bad as you are!!

I have read the thread and i understand but that doesnt mean that i share your opinion :/

 

[Thorwyn]

Dude, I never said anything like that. All I said was: If someone kills another person, you can not *automatically* lock away the killer for the rest of his life. That´s all.

 

[Morchaoron]

true they could give him involuntary euthanasia (sp?) instead! :/
or use him for science!! think about all those poor innocent rats that die each year under terrible conditions, we could save a few with it :/

well murderers are fucked for life anyway, few want one as a friend or want to employ them...