Politics Coronavirus

[Aoami]

If the UK's Christmas plans are not changed, BMJ editor in chief Fiona Godlee said "we will have people sitting in ambulances, we will have people in corridors" as hospitals become overwhelmed with a surge in Covid patients.
Speaking to BBC News, she said: "On the current trend, if nothing is done, by New Year's Day there will be as many people in hospital with Covid-19 as there were at the peak of the first phase in April.

thats if nothing is done and without the christmas relaxation. I am confused why everyone is so happy to create such a bigger pressure and problem for the NHS. They were all heroes in april and may. Now its we dont care what you guys have to cope with as long as we can meet at christmas.

@Bodhi i wont be going anywhere. Just me and the mrs. Its the wider impact of the relaxation of rules will have on the nhs which will affect everyone. Even if you dont get covid. If you have an accident or a medical emergency you will be affected.

so christmas socialising is selfish. And will put strain on resources that everyone needs. Then there will be complaints about another lockdown inJanuary.

Covid: 'Rash' Christmas rules 'will cost many lives'

Officials from the four UK nations discuss the plans, as top medical journals call them a "blunder".

www.bbc.co.uk

"The Health Service Journal and British Medical Journal said people might see the lifting of restrictions "as permission to drop their guard". "

So this is based on the belief that people won't follow the rules then?

 

[Scouse]

Clearly enough people aren't @Aoami - so their belief has been realised as fact in hard and harsh numbers.

Leadership would make a difference. But we have poor leadership.

 

[Bodhi]

Clearly enough people aren't @Aoami - so their belief has been realised as fact in hard and harsh numbers.

Leadership would make a difference. But we have poor leadership.

I'll presume you have some sort of source to back up the ascertation the rules aren't working because people aren't following them?

 

[Scouse]

I'll presume you have some sort of source to back up the ascertation the rules aren't working because people aren't following them?

Are you implying that the rules, if followed, don't work?

 

[Bodhi]

Are you implying that the rules, if followed, don't work?

I'm not implying anything - I just keep hearing that the restrictions are getting worse because people aren't following them, but it is never backed up with any data. It could be a case that everyone is ignoring them - or it could be the case that everyone - any by everyone I mean more than 90% adherance - is following them, in which case you'd reach your implied conclusion.

 

[Bodhi]

As an aside just found out my wee big sister has turned down a chance to appear on the telly - her practice was the first in Staffordshire to start vaccinating people!

Which is nice.

 

[Scouse]

I just keep hearing that the restrictions are getting worse because people aren't following them, but it is never backed up with any data.

Apart from the daily deaths and infections data?

I'm not implying anything

Yes. Yes you are

If that data is true, and 100% of people are following restrictions, then the only reasonable conclusion is that the restrictions themselves don't work and should be scrapped.

Which is kinda your year-long held position.

 

[Aoami]

Apart from the daily deaths and infections data?


Yes. Yes you are

If that data is true, and 100% of people are following restrictions, then the only reasonable conclusion is that the restrictions themselves don't work and should be scrapped.

Which is kinda your year-long held position.

Not really. There are still plenty of people who have to be out and about even with restrictions, and plenty of people mingling in tier 2 and still following the restrictions. Infections could still be rising if people are following the rules, but be much worse without them.

 

[SilverHood]

Plenty of examples in the USA where they are not practicing social distancing, lock down or wearing masks. The results are not encouraging.

Here's Kansas:

Deadliest place in America: They shrugged off the pandemic, then their family and friends started dying

Lulled into complacency by their rural county's distance from the pandemic's early days, residents of this Kansas county are now paying the price.

www.usatoday.com

North Dakota:

North Dakota Has One of the Worst COVID-19 Death Rates in U.S.

After resisting mask mandates and restrictions to slow the spread of COVID-19 for months, North Dakota now has one of the worst COVID-19 mortality rates in the world.

www.healthline.com

 

[Yoni]

Some of the above is the most selfish rubbish I have ever read....

 

[Jupitus]

Bottom line. If people keep on ignoring the 'rules', or the 'rules' are not appropriate then infections will rise as they already are in London. Don't think to yourselves that 'vulnerable' is limited to people over 70 or with 'serious' diseases. There are plenty of people in this country who have underlying health conditions, at many age ranges, who are scared of the consequences of catching Covid-19, so for a significant number of people any rise in infection rates means more isolation, mental health concerns and in some cases death.

It's crazy to assume that because person x has no symptoms and carries on as normal, that person y will know their behaviour pattern and understand the risk they might become a carrier from them. Person y may then wholly innocently then go and meet someone as described above and end up passing on a virus known to kill.

Yes, I think some balance is needed, but too many people misunderstand the basics. The government has been shite throughout too. It annoys the fuck out of me.

 

[dysfunction]

???

It's a children's book

View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shark-Park-Nick-Sharratt/dp/0552549770

 

[Moriath]

Not really. There are still plenty of people who have to be out and about even with restrictions, and plenty of people mingling in tier 2 and still following the restrictions. Infections could still be rising if people are following the rules, but be much worse without them.

Then It means the current rules are not fit for purpose and that we should go back to the november lock down as thats the only time numbers have fallen. This also shows xmas relaxation is rubbish

Also they are gonna talk about it again. Why would the nations get together if the didnt think it was gonna need changes for xmas? At least some of them.

Covid: Christmas safety advice 'set to be strengthened'

However it is unlikely that agreed rules allowing up to three households to form a bubble will change.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Aoami]

We should've gone back to full lockdown in preparation for Christmas.

 

[MYstIC G]

Bottom line. If people keep on ignoring the 'rules', or the 'rules' are not appropriate then infections will rise as they already are in London. Don't think to yourselves that 'vulnerable' is limited to people over 70 or with 'serious' diseases. There are plenty of people in this country who have underlying health conditions, at many age ranges, who are scared of the consequences of catching Covid-19, so for a significant number of people any rise in infection rates means more isolation, mental health concerns and in some cases death.

It's crazy to assume that because person x has no symptoms and carries on as normal, that person y will know their behaviour pattern and understand the risk they might become a carrier from them. Person y may then wholly innocently then go and meet someone as described above and end up passing on a virus known to kill.

Yes, I think some balance is needed, but too many people misunderstand the basics. The government has been shite throughout too. It annoys the fuck out of me.

No amount of rules can overcome the fact that it's not possible to separate everyone.

The risks cannot be eliminated, only managed. Since that's where we are, don't people get to choose if they take risks or not like any other given day?

Like, I don't fancy jumping off a bridge with a rubber band around my ankles but people do go bungee jumping, you know?

 

[dysfunction]

No amount of rules can overcome the fact that it's not possible to separate everyone.

The risks cannot be eliminated, only managed. Since that's where we are, don't people get to choose if they take risks or not like any other given day?

Like, I don't fancy jumping off a bridge with a rubber band around my ankles but people do go bungee jumping, you know?

Yes but going bungee jumping doesn't have risk of killing someone else.

(unless you land on them I guess.)

 

[MYstIC G]

Yes but going bungee jumping doesn't have risk of killing someone else.

(unless you land on them I guess.)

Maybe not the best example I could have thought of but I think we're basically at the point where we have to accept people are going to make their own choices.

 

[Bodhi]

Maybe not the best example I could have thought of but I think we're basically at the point where we have to accept people are going to make their own choices.

Also like bungee jumping, the risks of seeing family over Xmas can be mitigated as long as everyone is sensible. We know more than enough about Covid now to advise people properly.

Keep your distance where possible, wash your hands, don't go to the meal if you're showing symptoms, isolate beforehand as far as possible and look at Vitamin D/Zinc supplements to make sure your immune system is fighting fit.

I'd maybe just hesitate to spend a long time visiting anyone truly vulnerable unless you've had a recent negative test.

Just give us some decent guidance and treat us like adults for a change, rather than disease ridden cattle.

 

[Yoni]

I think it can be seen that treating a lot of humans like adults has not worked - look at the beaches earlier this year - not just the volume of people but the complete lack of respect for the land around them. Look at the shops when this mini lockdown lifted.... People just do not know how to behave. I really hope that none of you are affected by this but it would be interesting for anyone of you who are not in favour of stronger recommendations to reflect and discuss your thoughts once more should one of the group you decide to see be severely affected by the 5 day relaxation.

I have seen colleagues go from being very relaxed at the start of this to being hyper sensitive when the virus started really killing our over 70s and then not wanting to leave the house at all because they were doing the shopping for their parents and did not want to risk their lives. One of my colleagues attitudes completely flipped when their childs best friend who was in their 20s died.... they were not aware of any underlying conditions before this happened.

So yes of course humans should take responsibility for not only themselves and their families but also for anyone they come in contact with (sadly reading some of the answers above it is clear that this will not be the case)- the backlash from thanksgiving in the US is a good example of the potential damage that is going to occur after Christmas in any country where rules and recommendations are completely relaxed.

 

[Job]

With all this apparent carnage going on in full view, its confusing to me how few people I know, even through friends of friends who have died of covid or even been hospitalised by it.
But when you look at the figures, its obvious, it vanishingly rare.
60 thousand people out of 70m over 12 months.
With an average of 500 thousand people dying anyway, an extra 60 thousand is barely noticeable to the average joe and only the hospitals treating the ICU surge would be aware.
Thats how past similar extra death rates have gone unnoticed, but here we are facing lockdown three and the carnage of mental health, tens of thousands of undiagnosed illnesses that will take young people to early graves, worse debt than the war, an imense backlog of everything..all of it bad, thats going to catch up as landords start evicting and bankruptcy cases start catching up, cancers that have been untreated.

The big question will be if we just ignored it how much worse would it actually be, the final autopsy will be very interesting indeed.
We are looking at 50% vaccinated in 2021 and thats the best figure, it could be much lower, hopefully its enough to get it below our perception level and we can get back to not being scared shitless by the media.

 

[Raven]

Job, you're like a broken record. Those numbers are with lockdown. Without lockdown they would be much, much higher.

Can you please stop taking so much pride in your complete lack of intelligence? Thanks

 

[Gwadien]

I think it can be seen that treating a lot of humans like adults has not worked - look at the beaches earlier this year - not just the volume of people but the complete lack of respect for the land around them. Look at the shops when this mini lockdown lifted.... People just do not know how to behave. I really hope that none of you are affected by this but it would be interesting for anyone of you who are not in favour of stronger recommendations to reflect and discuss your thoughts once more should one of the group you decide to see be severely affected by the 5 day relaxation.

I have seen colleagues go from being very relaxed at the start of this to being hyper sensitive when the virus started really killing our over 70s and then not wanting to leave the house at all because they were doing the shopping for their parents and did not want to risk their lives. One of my colleagues attitudes completely flipped when their childs best friend who was in their 20s died.... they were not aware of any underlying conditions before this happened.

So yes of course humans should take responsibility for not only themselves and their families but also for anyone they come in contact with (sadly reading some of the answers above it is clear that this will not be the case)- the backlash from thanksgiving in the US is a good example of the potential damage that is going to occur after Christmas in any country where rules and recommendations are completely relaxed.

Again, as much as you want to suggest the main reasoning behind a Christmas lockdown would be saving lives, I really think the Government is more interested in their own survival.

Could you imagine after Christmas the headlines of 'Thousands of families fined on Christmas day!'

Suicide.

 

[Scouse]

Could you imagine after Christmas the headlines of 'Thousands of families fined on Christmas day!'

Suicide.

I think a lot of people would respect that.

 

[Gwadien]

I think a lot of people would respect that.

Again, if my predominantly working class Facebook which still has a bulk of people from my council estate secondary school is anything to go by then I would say you are wrong, all I see is anti lockdown stuffs.

 

[Job]

Job, you're like a broken record. Those numbers are with lockdown. Without lockdown they would be much, much higher.

Can you please stop taking so much pride in your complete lack of intelligence? Thanks

The fact that I aluded to that in the post and you ignored it says everything about your blinkered mindset.

Anyway, this is an interesting graph.

 

[Raven]

You're far to thick to even understand that chart and you present it with no context and no source (actual source please, not statista with an ONS stamp) Even on your chart I can't see this "average of 500k" do you even know what average means?

The population has increased dramatically in the last 10 years

Overview of the UK population - Office for National Statistics

UK population continues to grow but at a slower rate than previously. 2018 mid-year population estimates showed the UK population reached 66.4 million, up from 66.0 million in mid-2017.

www.ons.gov.uk

You're basically an idiot

 

[Job]

Beware of posting graphs that completely negate any argument you invented

 

[Yoni]

Firstly the government should learn to follow their own fucking recommendations if they did that then they may have a population that follows them. Secondly this is about individual responsibilty

 

[Raven]

 

[Embattle]

View attachment 43336

That could put more people off it