Congratulations to Hibernia the "we never zerg" realm
- Thread starter AngeLujo
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Sarumancer
Fledgling Freddie
- Joined
- May 15, 2004
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- 122
Oh yeah, animists are overpowered, whine nerf blah blah.
Sorry, animists are bugged to high heaven, have had so many nerfs and so many upcoming nerfs they make the archer nerf look like well, a slight pat on the bum.
Im sure it sucks to be facing us, but really, if you cant figure out another tactic apart from "charge at nearest target, f8, yell KILL MY TARGET" rinse and repeat, well, frankly, you need a good smack.
Attacking an entrenched enemy who has had time to set up and has a defendable position is ALWAYS costly, if another realm holds a keep (or milegate) and youre attacking it, even if the other side is well, a bit shit, youre going to take losses. Thats the way it works, reality wise and in game wise, you CAN crack defences and break through, but blindly charging doesnt work too well at the best of times.
As for dealing with animists, they have a 1000 unit range on shrooms (at absolute best), which have a 200ish unit range and fire at whatever comes into range first. They lock on that target until it dies, so if you get hit and back off, itll still try and hit you and not switch to the next target. So maybe send a nice tank or three in to pull the aggro, then fall back, and bring up your nukers who are now safe from being shroomed to deal with the animist? Or mez some shrooms (bug in mez/stun that only affects 11 shrooms max by the way, mythic say, working as intended), stun em? Nuke em from range? Clobber the animist and wait for a moment til the shrooms expire? Hit the shrooms with an aoe disease? or aoe dot? and watch them die off easily. Have a bow user ping the mushy with an arrow or three to "pull" the target to allow the rest of you to step up?
Should I mention the horrific power costs animist have? No? Maybe the non 50 lifetap which leads to miserable resists (and a pathetic range), arb has the bombers, which have a life of 20 sec and can be outrun/cc'd and cost power even if they dont hit anything (and in upcoming patches, cant go in or out of a keep/tower), piercing magic doesnt work for shrooms or bombers, shrooms leech FIFTY, yes, 50% of rp's, so we get the pet penalty but in upcoming changes dont get -any- pet orientated ra's or changes.
A buffed necro pet had 30% range on me the other night and dropped me in 3 nukes (540 a shot), I couldnt do -anything- against it, out of bomber range, out of lifetap range and I couldnt get out of their range at all.
Sorry to break this to you, but the animists you see Rvring fall into two categories.
1) Extremely good at using their class
2) Extremely dedicated to working with a class thats broken
Most animists dont even get anywhere near 40 let alone 50, its hard work (seriously, roll one on another server and try sometime) to xp them even as a duo (each mushy passes 50% aggro to the animist, have fun with that), power use is tremendous (no powertap like say oh, a necro).
You have a handful of Animist out there in Rvr (cmon the number of animists out there makes Derric's Iq look astronomical), Jabberwocky, Peat, Fert, Awarkle, Frubly, Gatt, Sarumancer and a few others who will probably bitch at me for forgetting them. The aboved named animists know their stuff inside out and upside down, theyre going to be a threat no matter what situation they get put in. Awarkle in particular seems to have this perverse fascination in seeing where he can stick mushrooms and Jabber is absolutely dedicated to making things go boom (I on the other hand, just laugh a lot, kill things and die in random orders).
Lemme put it another way. Go take a look at the RP charts for the last month or year, hell overall Rps. Take a look at the top classes, most rp earned, most played, see at the top of the list? Healers and Savages, now look alllllll the way down to the bottom of the list, oh look Valewalkers, reavers and *shock* Animists. Low population class, low rp class, although percieved "uber" ideas cause a lot of people to roll one up as an alt (and once they realise how tricky it is, they get shelved). Youre not going to see an animist in a FOTM gank group, but thanks to the bloody mindedness of those who DO choose to play the class, anytime you run into one in rvr, they can be a problem.
Anyhow, Ive waffled enough, but Ill summarise, "Animists are no more overpowered than Savages or Necros, their population is lower than Cuchuluhains wit, they can be defeated with simple tactics and they are being Nerfed into obscurity"
Sorry, animists are bugged to high heaven, have had so many nerfs and so many upcoming nerfs they make the archer nerf look like well, a slight pat on the bum.
Im sure it sucks to be facing us, but really, if you cant figure out another tactic apart from "charge at nearest target, f8, yell KILL MY TARGET" rinse and repeat, well, frankly, you need a good smack.
Attacking an entrenched enemy who has had time to set up and has a defendable position is ALWAYS costly, if another realm holds a keep (or milegate) and youre attacking it, even if the other side is well, a bit shit, youre going to take losses. Thats the way it works, reality wise and in game wise, you CAN crack defences and break through, but blindly charging doesnt work too well at the best of times.
As for dealing with animists, they have a 1000 unit range on shrooms (at absolute best), which have a 200ish unit range and fire at whatever comes into range first. They lock on that target until it dies, so if you get hit and back off, itll still try and hit you and not switch to the next target. So maybe send a nice tank or three in to pull the aggro, then fall back, and bring up your nukers who are now safe from being shroomed to deal with the animist? Or mez some shrooms (bug in mez/stun that only affects 11 shrooms max by the way, mythic say, working as intended), stun em? Nuke em from range? Clobber the animist and wait for a moment til the shrooms expire? Hit the shrooms with an aoe disease? or aoe dot? and watch them die off easily. Have a bow user ping the mushy with an arrow or three to "pull" the target to allow the rest of you to step up?
Should I mention the horrific power costs animist have? No? Maybe the non 50 lifetap which leads to miserable resists (and a pathetic range), arb has the bombers, which have a life of 20 sec and can be outrun/cc'd and cost power even if they dont hit anything (and in upcoming patches, cant go in or out of a keep/tower), piercing magic doesnt work for shrooms or bombers, shrooms leech FIFTY, yes, 50% of rp's, so we get the pet penalty but in upcoming changes dont get -any- pet orientated ra's or changes.
A buffed necro pet had 30% range on me the other night and dropped me in 3 nukes (540 a shot), I couldnt do -anything- against it, out of bomber range, out of lifetap range and I couldnt get out of their range at all.
Sorry to break this to you, but the animists you see Rvring fall into two categories.
1) Extremely good at using their class
2) Extremely dedicated to working with a class thats broken
Most animists dont even get anywhere near 40 let alone 50, its hard work (seriously, roll one on another server and try sometime) to xp them even as a duo (each mushy passes 50% aggro to the animist, have fun with that), power use is tremendous (no powertap like say oh, a necro).
You have a handful of Animist out there in Rvr (cmon the number of animists out there makes Derric's Iq look astronomical), Jabberwocky, Peat, Fert, Awarkle, Frubly, Gatt, Sarumancer and a few others who will probably bitch at me for forgetting them. The aboved named animists know their stuff inside out and upside down, theyre going to be a threat no matter what situation they get put in. Awarkle in particular seems to have this perverse fascination in seeing where he can stick mushrooms and Jabber is absolutely dedicated to making things go boom (I on the other hand, just laugh a lot, kill things and die in random orders).
Lemme put it another way. Go take a look at the RP charts for the last month or year, hell overall Rps. Take a look at the top classes, most rp earned, most played, see at the top of the list? Healers and Savages, now look alllllll the way down to the bottom of the list, oh look Valewalkers, reavers and *shock* Animists. Low population class, low rp class, although percieved "uber" ideas cause a lot of people to roll one up as an alt (and once they realise how tricky it is, they get shelved). Youre not going to see an animist in a FOTM gank group, but thanks to the bloody mindedness of those who DO choose to play the class, anytime you run into one in rvr, they can be a problem.
Anyhow, Ive waffled enough, but Ill summarise, "Animists are no more overpowered than Savages or Necros, their population is lower than Cuchuluhains wit, they can be defeated with simple tactics and they are being Nerfed into obscurity"
Sarumancer said:
Overdoing much maybe ? First, that a class is bugged to high heaven or not is no excuse for being overpowered, and you'll have to excuse me but you are trying to make it sound like animists have been hit by the nerf bat over and over and over with more to come which isn't true by any stretch of the imagination. Animists don't especially bother me, just pointing out things.
And ?
That is on the 15th tick and one minute later ... We're not talking about theurgist earth pets here are we ?
No you shouldn't because power fonts are in the game and as such this isn't much of an issue. Beside, every single caster in the game drain power excessively fast.
Miserable resists = 2.5% more than a level 50 spell and the range is the same as every other nuke in the game as far as i know.
The only thing RP charts are ever going to tell you is how many RPs people earn, anything else is how you interpret it, and it's definitively not as simple as "top classes are overpowered, bottom classes are gimp". Beside, I bloody hope you're not talking about "total realm points", because *that* is completely meaningless. You have to take into account population class (ie, look at average RPs), then you'd have to take into account characters that are not used for RvR (buffbots, powerlevelling classes, PBT bots, end regen bots, speed bots, pet spamming classes, etc etc) which nobody has any number for. Beside, there is different ways to earn RPs in this game, gank groups being the main one, and animists are out of those for the main part. People are not complaining about animists being overpowered in gank groups or solo they are complaning about animists being overpowered in stand offs / keep sieges.
Animists are (in our patch) or were (in US patch) horrendously overpowered in PvE - this was significantly nerfed, it needed to be. However in RvR they are extremely situation, not suited to open play which is pretty much 80%+ of RvR at the present time.Equendil said:
On top of this many of their spells / abilitys are bugged to hell, Mythic have been slow to fix these and have introduced even more bugs in recent patchs. Paladins are pretty much the best PvE Tanks, however it would be silly to say any nerfs of a Paladins RvR ability would be justified because of his PvE capabilitys.
So going on what you've said Animists are overpowered in Standoffs / Keep battles which make up a very small part of current RvR.
Equendil said:
I think you missed two vital points....
1)
Animists are not over powered, even you said the are only over powered in certain situations, and as Saru explained, there are many ways to defeat an Animist in even this situation.
2)
Because Animists are "bugged to high heaven" the only Animists RvRing are those dedicated and commited to the class, and therefore Above average on the playing stakes.
I have a level 50 Animist, I do use him for RvR very occasionally although usually on Relic Defense duty. Unless I get 5 minutes before a fight to set up I feel completely useless, how Awarkle manages to get shrooms where he gets shrooms without getting anihilated by the enemy I will never know, it takes me 2 minutes to set a GT in the right place, by which time I am usually asking a rezzer for assistance
As far as Animist Power consumption goes, I don't really see that we have much more of an issue than other casters, except for one thing... We have no way to use MCL. If we get time to set some shrooms and MCL before a fight starts we don't do too bad, but if a pet starts attacking before we can MCL then we may as well just sit and watch the rest of the fight.
At the end of the day every realm is different, each class within the realms is different. All classes have strengths and weaknesses, just because you run into a class in a situation which suits them doesn't make them overpowered.
Garok
Can't get enough of FH
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
- Messages
- 777
Maleg said:
Current RvR yes but most likely be pretty usefull in Frontiers if it does revolve around keep defense and attack.
But Animists are still a very versatile class to play and more importantly FUN .. not a one/two button spamming class like BD or Necro, but one that requires abit of thinking.
Nerf was mention'd but what about the boost to the Pet spells.
No class as im sure your aware is good @ every aspect of PvE and RvR however anamist do perform well in PvE and some areas of RvR which is more than alot of classes do..
Sarumancer
Fledgling Freddie
- Joined
- May 15, 2004
- Messages
- 122
The resist rate of a 45 spell compared to 50 ?
Tell you what, go ask the other classes with a lifetap about the difference now between their old non 50 lifetap and their new one,I believe its the cabalist has it in Alb (I know BDs have an insta one in Mid, played one to the 40s). The resist rate is quite significantly higher, more like 20%, note, this is in rvr, not PvE, against yellow-red mobs its resist rate isnt too bad.
"Power use isnt a problem since FoP", Im sorry, but requiring a 2nd player, to do specific things to get a special ability, fixes our power usage how? We lived for an entire year blowing power at a silly rate without the (rather nice) Font of Power, it still doesnt address the power costs and wastage that Animists have.
Ill give you an example (more hibsided as Ive not had my coffee yet)
Enchanter/Eldy/Mentalist
Target, light dd *boom*, light dd *boom*,light dd *boom*, start to cast light DD get message "target is dead"
Animist
Target, bomber (long cast time), travel time, *bomber gets stuck behind a small pebble*, bomber expires, power lost.
or perhaps
Target, bomber...... travel time..............Bomber (first bomber still travelling), travel ... Bomber (first bomber hits), traveling traveling, Bomber (second bomber hits), Bomber (2 more still travelling), Fellow hib kills target, 3 bombers stop where the target was and expire.
Animists use power to cast the bomber, it takes time to travel and if the target isnt there any more (eg stealthed, sos'd, ported, been charmed, died) the bomber stops and expires in 20sec. Power -lost-. Now correct me if Im not right on this point, but I dont think any other caster class has the same problem? Bolt users have a similar issue but bolts have direct line of sight, travel quite rapidly and -dont- get stuck on things due to bad pathing.
You were wondering about nerfs?
Lemme see, shroom amounts, certain RA's no longer working on / through pets, aoe buffs not helping shrooms, being unable to release shrooms (only took them 3 patches to figure that one out),issues with GT's, nonsensical RA's, changing the aggro code so more and more aggro goes to the animist per shroom, changing the rp drain so shrooms take large chunks of the rp earned (it happens occasionally that the pet eats 50% of a groups rp, not just the animists). Creep specline is largely worthless, verdant is well, almost viable (will be in NF probably), up coming nerfs including limiting number of shrooms (which is fair enough), bombers that wont get in or out of keeps (yet you can still use pets?), RA's that go from nonsensical to downright cretinous (hello animist have all the pet downsides and penaltys but be classes as a non pet class so you get no ra benefits, har har har).
As for RPs, no, really, go take a look at duskwave or whatever all the cool kids are using these days. Take a look at the realm populations, then just do a compare and contrast to the top of the table, down to the bottom of the table. Pick out the 6 SI classes, Valewalker, Animist, Reaver, Necro, Bonedancer & Savage, and lay them out against each other. It seems to me that one SI class in particular has a silly amount of people playing it and comparitively obscene amounts of RPs. Now, forgive me, but doesnt it just SLIGHTLY hint that Savages are quite a decent class? (1 of 3 new tank classes, yet they can get determination, I wonder would Vws and Reavers be as popular if they too had access to determination in rvr). Hibs have a lower population (25% vs the other two realms), so have less people to play the classes, and tend not to rvr as much (it really isnt fun having 2 enemy armies continually in your back yard that _each_ outnumber you 2-1 at least), so the figures for Hib tend to skew.
Add in the point that Savages are pretty much guaranteed a gank squad slot, unlike the other FIVE si classes. Necros are monsters in PvE, animists to an extent being they need some form of power regen, vales are rather nasty tanks as are reavers, both bringing a lot to the table, but no det cripples them and denys them a slot in rvr. Groundset doesnt always work properly, you have to remember its pythagoristic (hypotenuse not straight line), then you have the fun of actually fighting with the LOS code (as a ranger also, this is a royal pain in the ass crack).
I can understand why some people scream about animists, in the right situation, and given the right conditions, they can make your life absolutely hell. However those conditions are defeatable, the trick is being more than a brainless f8/assist monkey and not relying on an overpowered class's ability to dish out damage on an obscene scale.
Tell you what, go ask the other classes with a lifetap about the difference now between their old non 50 lifetap and their new one,I believe its the cabalist has it in Alb (I know BDs have an insta one in Mid, played one to the 40s). The resist rate is quite significantly higher, more like 20%, note, this is in rvr, not PvE, against yellow-red mobs its resist rate isnt too bad.
"Power use isnt a problem since FoP", Im sorry, but requiring a 2nd player, to do specific things to get a special ability, fixes our power usage how? We lived for an entire year blowing power at a silly rate without the (rather nice) Font of Power, it still doesnt address the power costs and wastage that Animists have.
Ill give you an example (more hibsided as Ive not had my coffee yet)
Enchanter/Eldy/Mentalist
Target, light dd *boom*, light dd *boom*,light dd *boom*, start to cast light DD get message "target is dead"
Animist
Target, bomber (long cast time), travel time, *bomber gets stuck behind a small pebble*, bomber expires, power lost.
or perhaps
Target, bomber...... travel time..............Bomber (first bomber still travelling), travel ... Bomber (first bomber hits), traveling traveling, Bomber (second bomber hits), Bomber (2 more still travelling), Fellow hib kills target, 3 bombers stop where the target was and expire.
Animists use power to cast the bomber, it takes time to travel and if the target isnt there any more (eg stealthed, sos'd, ported, been charmed, died) the bomber stops and expires in 20sec. Power -lost-. Now correct me if Im not right on this point, but I dont think any other caster class has the same problem? Bolt users have a similar issue but bolts have direct line of sight, travel quite rapidly and -dont- get stuck on things due to bad pathing.
You were wondering about nerfs?
Lemme see, shroom amounts, certain RA's no longer working on / through pets, aoe buffs not helping shrooms, being unable to release shrooms (only took them 3 patches to figure that one out),issues with GT's, nonsensical RA's, changing the aggro code so more and more aggro goes to the animist per shroom, changing the rp drain so shrooms take large chunks of the rp earned (it happens occasionally that the pet eats 50% of a groups rp, not just the animists). Creep specline is largely worthless, verdant is well, almost viable (will be in NF probably), up coming nerfs including limiting number of shrooms (which is fair enough), bombers that wont get in or out of keeps (yet you can still use pets?), RA's that go from nonsensical to downright cretinous (hello animist have all the pet downsides and penaltys but be classes as a non pet class so you get no ra benefits, har har har).
As for RPs, no, really, go take a look at duskwave or whatever all the cool kids are using these days. Take a look at the realm populations, then just do a compare and contrast to the top of the table, down to the bottom of the table. Pick out the 6 SI classes, Valewalker, Animist, Reaver, Necro, Bonedancer & Savage, and lay them out against each other. It seems to me that one SI class in particular has a silly amount of people playing it and comparitively obscene amounts of RPs. Now, forgive me, but doesnt it just SLIGHTLY hint that Savages are quite a decent class? (1 of 3 new tank classes, yet they can get determination, I wonder would Vws and Reavers be as popular if they too had access to determination in rvr). Hibs have a lower population (25% vs the other two realms), so have less people to play the classes, and tend not to rvr as much (it really isnt fun having 2 enemy armies continually in your back yard that _each_ outnumber you 2-1 at least), so the figures for Hib tend to skew.
Add in the point that Savages are pretty much guaranteed a gank squad slot, unlike the other FIVE si classes. Necros are monsters in PvE, animists to an extent being they need some form of power regen, vales are rather nasty tanks as are reavers, both bringing a lot to the table, but no det cripples them and denys them a slot in rvr. Groundset doesnt always work properly, you have to remember its pythagoristic (hypotenuse not straight line), then you have the fun of actually fighting with the LOS code (as a ranger also, this is a royal pain in the ass crack).
I can understand why some people scream about animists, in the right situation, and given the right conditions, they can make your life absolutely hell. However those conditions are defeatable, the trick is being more than a brainless f8/assist monkey and not relying on an overpowered class's ability to dish out damage on an obscene scale.
Sarumancer said:
I would be one of those cabalists, and no, the resist rate difference between a level 45 and 50 spell is not something you would notice without making stats on a big log.
Dunno, by giving you back power pretty fast maybe ?
It's not like animists are the only players who require support to fully take advantage of their abilities, is it ?
You're right in a way, the mana cost of spells was designed to offset the very powerful potential of turrets, unfortunately, just as savage buffs, when the drawbacks are removed through support, there's only (too) powerful abilities left.
or perhaps
target, bomber, bomber, lifetap, dead target that never even had a chance to get a heal.
or perhaps
Set shroom field, watch as random player that got too close dies in 2s.
Theurgists to some extend with their pets, or necros who drain power on failed spells.
Backloading damage has its advantages as well, and animists got a regular nuke, not like they are limited to bombers and turrets to deal damage.
No, I'm sure imaginative people can turn any change in the game that they don't like into yet another "HALP, I'M BEING NERFED" argument. Hell, there's a healer on vnboard who whine that mid healers have been nerfed into oblivion over and over since beta.
Yes, you can expect the classes at the top of the charts to be decent classes indeed. Not looking at charts and playing the game, I could tell you that too, I could also tell you they are more than decent, perfectly suited for melee gank groups, and I would expect the class average RPs to be quite high for that very reason.
With cheap purge as well, I believe they would, especially Reavers (well, I don't know much about how valewalkers play).
Certain conditions are defeatable, others are not, mezzing turrets may not be working all too well as pointed out, AE dots won't kill turrets with 1500 hits anywhere fast, killing the animist won't get rid of turrets until their timer is over, nor is it usually an option seeing as it means going through or in range of the field first. The "use tactics" advices tend to work on paper a lot better than in any real situation.
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