Classes, a little help with perspective..

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by dakeyras


Only problem with this is that Skalds aren't a Music Class, we are hybrid tanks. We don't have instruments and the only thing we have in common with the others is runspeed.

In no way can you compare a Bard to a Skald...that would be like comparing a Warden with a Runemaster. Both have PBT so therefore they are the same?

Skalds have more in common with Paladins and Wardens than the 2 Music Classes

A bard is a hybrid tank... just they don't spec weapons very high very often

Skalds are akin to the champion, paladin, warden, bard, champion (they all have 35% less weaponskill than an armsman/hero/warrior/zerker/merc/blademaster with the same stats)

 

[Danya]

Bard is a support class, they have less weaponskill than a skald etc. Compairing them to hybrid tanks is not a valid comparison.

 

[Solid]

Danyan Minstrels were never meant to be killing machines. You are equipped as the best escape artists in the game, you got insta stun, castable mez, speed and stealth, a perfect escape chain

 

[old.Gombur Glodson]

Only once ingame have I been uncovered due to see hidden.

 

[Danya]

I don't normally get uncovered by see hidden as I usually just speed from apk to amg (and half the time get attacked by a group of assassins )

Originally posted by Solid
Danyan Minstrels were never meant to be killing machines. You are equipped as the best escape artists in the game, you got insta stun, castable mez, speed and stealth, a perfect escape chain

The problem is Solid, escaping is boring after the first few times. Running away gains no RPs. All groups want you for is speedsong, which is an inherently boring task. Soloing tends to result in getting PAed by one of the numberous assassin groups.

 

[old.Gombur Glodson]

hmm I do speed song, powersong, mez and combat and Im having the time of my life.

 

[Danya]

speed song = boring.
powersong = even more boring.
mez = good, but tends to get you insta CCed / beaten to a pulp in 3secs flat.
combat = good, but kinda depressing when you hit someone and they hit back twice as hard and have twice as many hp, and IP and your stun lasts 3 secs while they can slam you for 9 secs. Alternatively they're a caster and QC CC you then nuke all your hp off in 10 seconds.

 

[hotrat]

Stealth is gimped cus of see hidden and true sight (minstrel is the ONLY class in the game to still have the SAME stealth as we had in beta), i have been spotted so many times by it i rarely stealth anymore, even times i have gone behind trees and im still spotted, not a lot of point soloing anymore anyway cus we cant kill anything
Most of the time now i group, when i see enemies i run back, let my group go forward and engage, then if my group mates get mezzed i cast unmezz, then i start casting my own mezz, then i join in the fight. If anyone see's me behind my group i stun them as they approach then play mezz.
Alternatively i go kamikazee and do all i can to try and stun//mezz the enemy ae mezzer before they ae mezz my group

minstrel and skald and bard can be compared cus all have speed, i compared warden to theurg cus both have pbt but they are very different however pbt is a big thing and they are the only classes with it, just like 105% speed is a big thing.

 

[old.Wildfire]

1v1 an eldritch should pwn any other cloth caster, they just have too many get-out-of-jail-free cards - nearsight, 9 sec stun, AE mezz...

 

[Blood]

Originally posted by old.Gombur Glodson
Only once ingame have I been uncovered due to see hidden.

Doesnt mean i havent waved at you a couple of times... and since you are usually in a non stealth group, its not that often you stealth (am i right?)

ps. In a zerg, speed = RP.

 

[old.Gombur Glodson]

Originally posted by old.Blood|Prydwen


Doesnt mean i havent waved at you a couple of times... and since you are usually in a non stealth group, its not that often you stealth (am i right?)

ps. In a zerg, speed = RP.

I've had fun in gorge many times after 1,50 where my stealth has been very usefull.
And in mg campinga my stealth is also usefull as it allows me to mezz casters on battlements without being spotted.
So to say that minstrel stealth is useless is not right in my case.

 

[Danya]

Stealth isn't useless, but the amount of benefit you get is disproportionate with the amount of points you spend on it. An assassin spending a similar number of points (and they get many more to start with) gets detect hidden, several levels of safe fall, climb wall, and moves about twice as fast in stealth. Also a random greycon with RR1L8 can't spot them at clip with a passive ability.
Now I'm not saying minstrel's should get the same stealth as assassins, but the line does need buffing up. TBH if they gave us spec duel wield, I'd respec out of stealth in a flash.

 

[hrorvaig]

Hmm, as a member of the warrior community i feel i have to respond to those remarks on warriors and RvR.

I do agree that warriors can sometimes feel like a boring class to play, we dont have any special abilities, like most other classes do. We dont "own" many classes in RvR (no easy rps for us), except maybe paladins

But playing a warrior is still fun for me, and im actually rather tired of all these posts you find about warriors sucking soooo bad noone should ever play one...

As i see it its all about how you play them, in RvE it always brings a smile to me when im blocking the MA like mad, or when im the MA myself and my warrior is doing a good work at not only holding agroo, but also surviving it.

In RvR i think its all about how you play them aswell, you could just join the emain zerg, which is sometimes quite comfortable, or you could go do other stuff, you wont get there as fast as a skald or a runemaster or a healer, you wont have the abilities to hide like stealthing classes. Playing a solo warrior in RvR is almost always about maximising the chance of actually winning an encounter, be it how you hide (staying out of popluar hiding places etc), when to not confront an enemy and how to act when you have started the fight, or about getting as high resists as you can, chosing your RA:s carefully...

The fact that warriors are always never sure winners is the thing that actually for me makes it fun to play one, and i do have soloed most of the classes there is in daoc, even though ive certainly almost died to every class also (once again except paladins)... And everytime i emerge victorious i feel kinda proud of myself, not so much because i think my skills are that good, but maybe more so because ive once again proved that warriors can actually be played in RvR....

 

[Eleasias]

Originally posted by erl
Have to agree with Generic Poster on the archer issue.
Ranger > Scout > Hunter.

Rangers have good bow damage and dual wield + damge add + str/con buff + evade 3 + diamondback is superior to the other's melee.

Damn, almost 90 days played and 4 million RP's as ranger and I still dont have con buff Diamondback owns but shame pierce is a bit gimped spec line for rangers, crap dmg to most targets you are meleeing ... swapped from pierce to blade and would never go back.

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by dakeyras
Skalds...
Champion >>> Paladin > Thane > Skald

You cant compare classes like this, sure a champion can probably beat a skald 1-1. But the champion cant catch the skald, and the skald can pick and choose a lot of the fights that he wants.

And warriors aint so bad, ask Crush how he plays his ewul little kobold

 

[Nonnier]

people who say thanes are bad tanks haven't seen me with full shaman buffs and with a aug spec healers (bloody nice attack speed buff).

imo u can't really link any clas in different realms together, seeing as they are all different to each other.

(oh, and imo. skalds are almost the same to champs )

(and yes, i have slam)

 

[daphatfriar]

Just out of interest (sort fo on topic tho):

When I'm in Hib everyone says how good Wardens are compared to Friars (PBT, Heals, buffs, etc)

When I'm in Alb and I play my Friar I can't recall ever being beaten 1v1 by a Warden. Tho TBH I may have been - my memory *is* pretty poo

Discounting the "supprt" aspect of both classes was wondering which peeps would rather face in a fight? Which class is the better tank so to speak?

Just curiuos is all

 

[stu]

Originally posted by reinnon
people who say thanes are bad tanks haven't seen me with full shaman buffs and with a aug spec healers (bloody nice attack speed buff).

If you're gonna play that game though, you have to give that sword and board Armsman a set of full-aug Cleric buffs etc... and I think in that situation you'd get your ass handed back to you.

 

[old.Eynar_Vega]

Originally posted by hotrat

In general hibs have the best casters, mids got the best cc, mids and hibs joint on tanks (zerker and hero), albs got the best stealthers.

Mids have the best CC? Well, healers prolly do yes, only problem is that they are Midgard's main healing class as well. I mean, you can hardly expect a lot of healing in RvR with 1 healer in group, which makes perfect sense since CC is far more important than the death of a single group member...

And to Dakeyras: you're 100% right m8, skalds are doomed to become nothing more than speed-bots
Dmg output is too low, no defensive skills, increased resists on DD's and mezz. Increasing their spec points to atleast 1.75xlevel and ability to train medium shields would be a possible solution, but I don't see that happening cuz of the general "Skalds are fine as they are" misunderstanding. So far we have gotten as good as no attention at all, apart from those crappy single resist songs...not to mention the utterly ultra bullshit skald-specific realm ability...

 

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by old.Eynar_Vega



And to Dakeyras: you're 100% right m8, skalds are doomed to become nothing more than speed-bots
Dmg output is too low, no defensive skills, increased resists on DD's and mezz. Increasing their spec points to atleast 1.75xlevel and ability to train medium shields would be a possible solution, but I don't see that happening cuz of the general "Skalds are fine as they are" misunderstanding. So far we have gotten as good as no attention at all, apart from those crappy single resist songs...not to mention the utterly ultra bullshit skald-specific realm ability...

All that said though Skalds as a class are still the highest realm point earning class on both english speaking server by a mile. They can't be that bad if you belive the overall statistics, ok so they are weaker in future patches but they didn't get any major nerf and the fact that Mids get a class that can endurance buff helps Skalds greatly.

Stats

The worrying thing about those stats is the dire figures for Cabalist, as a class they are amazingly powerful when matter specced and yet they have a shite amount realm points. I can't understand how they are performing so bad.....

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by old.cHodAX


All that said though Skalds as a class are still the highest realm point earning class on both english speaking server by a mile. They can't be that bad if you belive the overall statistics.

This is exactly why Skalds are gonna suffer, as they are suffering now in the US. Why do some players thing that high rp's means squat about a class?

Just because Echoic is RR10, just because Horsma is doing well on Excal, just because Prydwen has some high ranked skalds, doesn't mean that skalds are a great class.

Kephan is doing well...so Thanes are fine?

Sweat is RR9...so Warriors are fine?

RP's have zilch to do with class effectiveness.

Skalds tend to do well because we are wanted in groups...for one thing only and that is speed. RM's have a better damage add, Thanes/zerkers/warriors hit harder. If Skalds did not have speed why on earth would a group want a skald?

If Skalds did not have speed they would be the most broken class in this game...and speed drops in combat.

Fine, we get the rp's by being group friendly...but I for one would like to be a bit more effective within that group. If a group has 2 skalds both usually play speed cause there is no alternative. Rest Song is rubbish, other classes provide better damage adds that halve the skalds, and resist songs aren't grouped like a paladins.

If Skalds are hybrid tanks (my view) give us 1.75 and medium shields, or give us evade2 and access to dodger. If we are melee support then give us some decent support chants such as group shield, group attack speed, pulsing spellturn .

 

[cHodAX]

I understand your point completly but my point still remains, on average Skalds earn more points than any other class. Skalds dominate casters who account for 30% of the playerbase, you can't expect them to be dominant against all other classes otherwise they would be no balance at all and we would have a repeat of the current situation where everyone has an infil/sb alt. People complain that Thane's are underpowered too and yet there are many high ranked Thane on Excal. That is not to say either class doesn't need reworking, just that they are not as bad as many would claim.

 

[Danya]

Dakeyras/Eynar: The skald issue is part of the general issues with a lot of hybrids. Quite a few are becoming underbalanced by changes to other classes. The nature of the hybrid class means they will collect nerfs from other classes. Yet they aren't nerfed directly so don't get fixed. About the only hybrid that is as good or better than a pure class is the champion, because they recently got their self buff and an increase in their debuffs.

The main problem people have with hybrids seems to be lack of hp and/or damage. In part this is because hybrids rely on their magical abilities to deal damage to make up for lesser melee skills. However with the huge amount of magic resistances introducted to limit caster damage hybrids are feeling gimped. Having said that even casters are complaining about crap damage, so maybe mythic will scale back the resists, or boost power regen.

 

[dakeyras]

I agree Danyan, hybrids have been steadily nerfed via the backdoor and Mythic are reluctant to fix these classes because of player perception.

When the game was launched hybrids were king. The most uber class in the game was the Thane, closely followed by the Skald and Minstrel. Players remember Thanes raining down hammers on chain-stunned grey/green con armies, remember being ganked by purple con skalds in the Gorge and being stunned, mezzed and killed by Minstrels appearing from nowhere in Yggdra.

The Thane started to die once the 'Stungard' era ended...and now Skalds/Minstrels are suffering and it will get worse. Champions and Friars are the only Hybrids that have received boosts to compensate, and unfortunately a class has to get really bad before Mythic address it. I will continue to play my Skald after 1.54 because I love the concept of the class, and hopefully, as the number of Skalds in Europe decline as rapidly as they are in the US Mythic will wake up and realise that though casters/tanks and assassins have received many upgrades since release some classes have only felt the sting of the nerfbat.

 

[stu]

I love my Skald, fits my playstyle perfectly.

Am I the only one to *like* the class I ended up with?

(Although it did take me 2 tries, my Thane is gathering dust atm)

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by stu
I love my Skald, fits my playstyle perfectly.

Am I the only one to *like* the class I ended up with?

Yep, I love my skald aswell, it is at the moment a still great class and it is great that you are enjoying yours...but if you are blissfully unaware of what is on the horizon then I suggest you visit TeamSkald and read the TL's last report covering 1.53. There is another one due out in the next few days which covers 1.54 and that should be very interesting.

It is not out of boredom that many of the top Skalds rerolled.

 

[Solid]

I really am sick of all these n00b inexperienced thanes claiming how "UBER" they are.

Most alb and hib classes laugh at us we are so gimped. Reinnon anyone is uber with full aug buffs, dont make the class balanced, fixed or in any way shape of form good.

Yes since I respecced to Slam my thane is more viable, or shall I say less gimped. A thane is a very very poor excuse of a warrior as he cant cast for shit. Thanes melee 90% of the time in RvR, thats not very hybrid imo, and its testament to our lame Stormcalling line. A warrior is better in groups than a thane with his huge hp, higher weapon/shield/parry spec, cheaper RA and more Dex.

I would go so far as to say Warriors are better than Thanes in RvR if you look at what they can get.

 

[old.Iunliten]

Skald whine...

That was new

Ah well some skald said you only could kill casters and healers (or something)

Oh no you can't kill the other tanks. What? Speed and stealth means an ability to pick your fights.

If you see a caster. It has no chance to run away.

If you see a tank. It got no way to catch on its own (Champ debuffing your str to enc and adding snare on that would be the only very unlikely way)

And someone said if you took speed away from skalds you would get one of the most gimped classes in the realm.

What if you take away DD spells from mages, heals from healers or the high skillpoints of a rouge and defense from tanks.
If statements are not very valid!

But keep the skald whine coming, always enjoying some other whine the chateau-de-uber-assassin or we-are-useless-rouge

 

[old.chesnor]

I would have though Mr.McThife should know better than to post pointless threads like this. Comparing classes with greater than and less than signs based upon who twats him in a 1 on 1 encounter and his clearly messed up view of RvR. Druids > Clerics > Healers MY ARSE!!!!!. I bow before your deep analytical mind Brannor....

 

[the_smurflord]

Interesting that everyone on this thread puts themselves as worse than the other realms. A real exhibition of one-downmanship.

I can only speak for my class:

Infiltrator >= Shadowblades >> Nightshades

I rate infiltrators and shadowblades as fairly even, with the infils ever so slightly having the upper hand.

Overall summary of the class balance situation: EVERYONE LIKES TO COMPLAIN THAT THEY ARE HARD DONE BY.