Classes, a little help with perspective..

[Brannor McThife]

Ok, here's my view of DAoC at present, I don't know all the classes, so help me by filling in the blanks...

Infil > SB > NS

Scout > Ranger > Hunter

Hero >>> Armsman > Warrior

Druid > Cleric > Healer

Enchanter > Cabalist > SM

Champion >>> Thane > Merc

Bezerker > Paladin > blademaster

Others?


Of those, the following can all beat me one-on-one:
Infil, NS, Ranger, Scout, Hero, Armsman, Druid, Cleric, Enchanter, Cabalist, Champion, Merc, Paladin, Blademaster.

I stand by my view, that warriors are the worst class in this game. Dunno why I ever played one, nor why I still do. Hoping that oneday we'll actually be of more use than a big target, easy to kill, and nothing unique about us.

<sighs and wanders off after being owned yet again by an Infil after using IP and FA2...who in return didn't have to use IP/FA till the end of the fight...> uke:

-G

 

[SilverHood]

but we got them in the end G!

Both of them lame xp killing lamers

 

[Gwendel]

oi the only exp death i caused tonight was an accident, he ran off and aggroed them, and i did hit the mobs off him but a moment to late was funny running up top, killing someone then watching your posse run up as i went back down and did it down there for the exp death i do apologise to Nilgrim, i dont like causing exp deaths _even_ in df

And its only cos i mistook you for a fat overwieght sb Brannor,lose some weight man!

 

[Brannor McThife]

Yeah, Gwendel, enjoy the fucking slam you little shit.

Everyone knows infils can solo warriors. Next time don't be so greedy as to try PA a green hunter when Korvarn was just ahead of him and I came around the corner.

I spared some grey cons this morning when I was on your side. I've even saved some Albs from death by killing the mobs that were going to kill them, even tried to hide one inside me once while my group ran past. I'm sure you had fun running around killing all those greys.

I'm also actually glad it was that green hunter that killed Kreig.

Anyway, back to the subject... am I right in my analysis?

-G

 

[SilverHood]

it was nilsom, and he's bluecon

and since I ran over the stairs, i doubt they even saw me

 

[Gwendel]

It was boredom , not often you see me doing that at all Anyway, you do have a valid point though, lets hope 1.53 brings some well needed fixes to the block parry rate that they are putting in

[00:55:57] Glauthrong attacks you with his shield!
[00:55:57] You are hit for 201 damage.
[00:55:57] You cannot move!

Surely a troll should hit for more than that with a slam, thats not a knock at you at all Brannor, just showing your point about it. A tank should be able to hit for more than that on a rogue class, ive been hit for 600 by a spearo, yet ive never noticed warriors hit as hard

 

[Generic Poster]

Ranger > Scout > Hunter

Is what VN ladies scream about. Also, Paladin/Merc are in the wrong places.


I'd have thought Cabalists are just as good in RvR as Enchanters. They both have their uses in Keep Defence.

Cabalists with AoE DoTs and nerfsight.
Mana'chanters with PBAoE.

 

[cHodAX]

After playing both I would say Enchanter/Cabalist are an even match, what makes Enchanter more fun to play in general is the speed buff and Hibernia being a much easier realm to exp in because of PBAE groups. As I said though for RvR they are an even match, both have pets but offensively they have different roles and are capable of delivering a killer blow in a battle. Cabalist fares better in open combat but at keep defence mana bombs are pure evil. That said I honestly think a well played Cabalist could take a well played Enchanter in a 1v1 anyday of the week though, nerfsight and dot's are just that good.

 

[nume]

Originally posted by Brannor McThife
I spared some grey cons this morning when I was on your side. I've even saved some Albs from death by killing the mobs that were going to kill them, even tried to hide one inside me once while my group ran past

Well played that man

I'd just like to say this is a great example to all of us, lets get some honor in the RvR and leave little grey-cons alone (unless like a lvl50 infil I know a 20+ grey con zerg attacks you :uhoh: )
As for helping out xp-ers in trouble well played again. If I saw a hibby/middy in trouble i'd help as well, when you or they are xp-ing there should be no RvR outlook

p.s. Think you should swap Merc's and Paladins around in your list

p.p.s Death to Midgard & Hibernia scum! (disclaimer: excluding grey cons )

 

[Blood]

But Mythic never wanted to the realms to be cookie cutter realms, where the realms were identical.

Its kindda like comparing an apple tree with a pear tree, and then saying that the apple trees have the most apples.

Like Rangers have dualwield + nice damage add = uber
and Scouts have shield slam + crit shot = uber
and Hunters have uber pets (uhm yeah... well.... sorta)

(ps. i blame these almose euforic garden acronysms on insomniac)

 

[Tilda]

Originally posted by old.cHodAX
After playing both I would say Enchanter/Cabalist are an even match, what makes Enchanter more fun to play in general is the speed buff and Hibernia being a much easier realm to exp in because of PBAE groups. As I said though for RvR they are an even match, both have pets but offensively they have different roles and are capable of delivering a killer blow in a battle. Cabalist fares better in open combat but at keep defence mana bombs are pure evil. That said I honestly think a well played Cabalist could take a well played Enchanter in a 1v1 anyday of the week though, nerfsight and dot's are just that good.

I agree, Cablists and Chanters are very level.

So

Enchanters = Calaists >SM

Tilda

 

[Ragnarok1978]

I guess, if you HAVE to compare the classes from each realm to those of the other, you're about right.

However, I'd do:
Druid > Healer > Cleric

And switch around some downhere:

Champion >>> Thane > Paladin

Bezerker > Merc > blademaster

----

I don't give much for direct class comparing tho, as they weren't intended to all be equal, cause where would the differences of the realm then play in?

It's a fact that the higher the population of the realm, the weaker the classes, it is no different on Eu than on US, albion dominates populationwise thus they get to be the weakest, then comes midgard, then hibernia.

----

But two things are for sure:
N E R F A S S A S I N S !
Add buff "active" range, to get rid off buffbots.

And well, maybe... Buff warriors?

 

[Flimgoblin]

For RP earnings - the highest population realm on each server does the worst.

Doesn't matter if it's Albion or Hibernia or Midgard it just happens.

Product of Game Theory.

(and hey! stop comparing me to thanes and champs! just because I break mezz lots
Also, paladins seem more akin to wardens than champions or thanes, they're defensive hybrids, group multipliers, that sorta thing)

 

[old.Atrox]

Hunter < Rest of the Classes in Daoc

 

[dakeyras]

Skalds...

Skalds are probably unique in being the only class that does not have a directly compatible class in either of the other realms, and the skald TL is now looking to Mythic to define just what a skald is.

Some say the skald is a 'Music Support Class' in which case:

Bard > Minstrel > Skald

Others say the skald is a 'Melee Support Class' in which case:

Warden > Friar > Skald

The third school of thought is that skalds are 'Hybrid Tanks':

Champion >>> Paladin > Thane > Skald

(and before Paladins and Thanes spit their dummy at this one, both Paladins and Thanes wipe the floor with Skalds in duels)


The Skald is a great class, starting to suffer in 1.52 and definetly suffering in 1.54, with many rerolling. I love playing my skald, but I do however feel that skalds need a bit of role definition, other than just being a battle taxi who can only beat a caster/rogue in melee (which is the situation in 1.54 now)

 

[stu]

Originally posted by old.Blood|Prydwen
But Mythic never wanted to the realms to be cookie cutter realms, where the realms were identical.

Its kindda like comparing an apple tree with a pear tree, and then saying that the apple trees have the most apples.

Agreed. Unfortunately all the cross-realm whining and subsequent kneejerk fixing over the past few months ("waaah why does xyz have this when we don't") are creating exactly that - I wonder if we'll still fight when we're all part of the great realm of Midbernion

Having said that, Cabalists probably stack up closer against Mentalists than Enchanters? (at least Matter vs Mana, which are probably the 2 most 'valued' templates of each)

 

[erl]

Have to agree with Generic Poster on the archer issue.
Ranger > Scout > Hunter.

Rangers have good bow damage and dual wield + damge add + str/con buff + evade 3 + diamondback is superior to the other's melee.

edit: turned those damn arrows the wrong way

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by dakeyras
The Skald is a great class, starting to suffer in 1.52 and definetly suffering in 1.54, with many rerolling. I love playing my skald, but I do however feel that skalds need a bit of role definition, other than just being a battle taxi who can only beat a caster/rogue in melee (which is the situation in 1.54 now)

Welcome to the world of minstrels, only we've had this since 1.50.
Minstrels have it even worse being given a mix of songs, instas and castable spells, dunno which cretin thought castable spells was a good idea on minstrel but I wish they hadn't. I hate standing still to cast.

 

[old.Gombur Glodson]

I cant complain

 

[Ragnarok1978]

I realize skalds and minstrels are kinda in the same boat here, but really, we aren't THAT bad off are we? I mean, just look at the warriors!

I love having speed, I love having insta castable DDs, mezz and snare, I love wearing chain even tho I am a light tank/hybrid. Given that the snare and mezz can be of limited use in busy RvR, I still feel the two shouts do a decent amount of damage, and I can still melee for a good 30-40% of the damage most opponent melees can do back to me, so are we really that bad off, at least us skalds?

 

[old.Lianuchta]

Runies>Wizards>Elds

Wizards have the highest dmg spells, but no real utility spells.
Elds have the lowest dmgspells, but have access to some fairly useful utility spells (nearsight springs to mind).
Runies dmg is in between eld and wizzie, but the have a lotmore utility spells than either of them (run spd, PBT, nearsight...).

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Ragnarok1978

I love having speed, I love having insta castable DDs, mezz and snare, I love wearing chain even tho I am a light tank/hybrid. Given that the snare and mezz can be of limited use in busy RvR, I still feel the two shouts do a decent amount of damage, and I can still melee for a good 30-40% of the damage most opponent melees can do back to me, so are we really that bad off, at least us skalds?

No, we are not that badly off at the moment (1.52). No where near the 'uber' solo killers that we once were but probably one of the Mythic 'success' classes in terms of balance.

That will change however. The skald in 1.53/1.54 is a very differant animal. As a hybrid/light tank we get none of the RA skill point reductions (same applies to other hybrids) and with only 1.5 points per level we get very little benefit from the changes to defence in 1.53

As most skalds have cookie-cutter 17 in parry this is the best defence available. Add to that the insane resists seen in 1.54 (particularly body) and you are left with a very weak meleer. Hybrids are given DD's etc to balance out weakened offence. If the DD's are neutered and you are left with weak offence then you suffer. Champions have great damage to compensate while Thanes and Paladins have great defence.

Skalds and Minstrels share these issues. Body resists, weak melee, limited defence, expensive RA's. I think the reason both classes are suffering in 1.53 onwards is because they were once seen as overpowered and therefore not deserving of tweaks. Hopefully that will change.

 

[Ragnarok1978]

So in other words, give 2x skillpoints and trainable shield skill?

Would rule, hehe.

 

[old.Gombur Glodson]

Originally posted by Ragnarok1978
I realize skalds and minstrels are kinda in the same boat here, but really, we aren't THAT bad off are we? I mean, just look at the warriors!

I love having speed, I love having insta castable DDs, mezz and snare, I love wearing chain even tho I am a light tank/hybrid. Given that the snare and mezz can be of limited use in busy RvR, I still feel the two shouts do a decent amount of damage, and I can still melee for a good 30-40% of the damage most opponent melees can do back to me, so are we really that bad off, at least us skalds?

Minstrels being bad off? Hell no, minstrels are quit nicely balanced now with see hidden, if there is one thing that might be a bit uber its sos.

 

[hotrat]

Main CC class
Healer > Bard > Sorceress

Main healing class
Druid > Cleric > Healer (only real difference is RA's (group purge > BOF > Perfect Recovery))

Music Class
Bard > Skald > Minstrel (minstrel stealth sux, they are just weak skalds now)

Dual Weild Class
Zerker > Merc > BM

Assasin
Infil > SB > NS

Sniper
Ranger = Scout > Hunter

Main Casting class
Eldritch > Runie > Wizard (Castable stun, nearsight, ae mezz | PBT, nearsight)

Pet Class
Chanter pet > Cabalist > Chanter > SM

Light tank support
Warden > Paladin > Thane (when pala gets end regen)

PBT class
Warden > Runie > Theurg

Main tank class
Hero > Armsman > Warrior


In general hibs have the best casters, mids got the best cc, mids and hibs joint on tanks (zerker and hero), albs got the best stealthers.

 

[LunarDarkShadow]

Main Crowd Controllers

Healer>Bard>Sorceror

Oops, someone already said that.

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by hotrat



Music Class
Bard > Skald > Minstrel (minstrel stealth sux, they are just weak skalds now)

Only problem with this is that Skalds aren't a Music Class, we are hybrid tanks. We don't have instruments and the only thing we have in common with the others is runspeed.

In no way can you compare a Bard to a Skald...that would be like comparing a Warden with a Runemaster. Both have PBT so therefore they are the same?

Skalds have more in common with Paladins and Wardens than the 2 Music Classes

 

[Ottar]

> we aren't THAT bad off are we? I mean, just look at the warriors!

Thanes might be worse off in RvR than warriors even, tho Ive not played either so its in no way an expert oppinion. HP, higher damage and in next patch cheaper RA’s. Doesn’t make warrior any good compared to other main tanks but compared to a thane..

And still, there are times when I wish I was a zerk or a warrior instead of skald. Good portion of my time in RvR is spent moving in groups that already have a skald or in static camps where skald speed is not much use while high hp, defense and damage output is.

Ottar

 

[old.Gombur Glodson]

Originally posted by hotrat

Music Class
Bard > Skald > Minstrel (minstrel stealth sux, they are just weak skalds now)

My stealth suck?? Hmm could you tell that to the mids and hibs?
I dont think they are aware of this.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Gombur Glodson
Minstrels being bad off? Hell no, minstrels are quit nicely balanced now with see hidden, if there is one thing that might be a bit uber its sos.

I disagree, we would be somewhat balanced, except assassin numbers are so high that we are underpowered. And see hidden needs some sort of level adjustment on spotting range.

One thing that hybrids suffer from (and particularly skalds and minstrels who rely on their dds a lot) is the cost of RAs. We need RAs for hp, power and end to remain competitive. Other classes can manage with just hp and end or power, thus they have many more to spend on tweaking up stats and getting passive abilities.
If you can't keep endurance and power up, damage output drops a lot, by comparison the pure tanks only need to keep their endurance up, and the casters only need their power. Add in the issue of dds sucking up all your end and it's even worse. Then add in the various CC nerfs - the rest of the CC classes got a power reduction on their spells when the CC resists went in, minstrels and skalds got the shaft. I'm still paying 49 power (and the associated high end cost) for a 6s stun that lasts 2 secs, while hib casters and clerics (and healers I think) had their 9s stun reduced from 49 power to 30. The real issue with hybrids is that they haven't been directly nerfed, they just collect nerfs from other classes (the body resists one is typical of this - introduced to reduce pure caster nukes, it cripples hybrids). Because of this, mythic doesn't see them as being nerfed so doesn't think they need fixing. The way things are looking at the moment we're heading for a game where only pure melee classes (I include assassins here) are viable.