Classbalance (stealthers)

[Matriarch]

Originally posted by phule_gubben
Just read some intersting info on Duskwave

All know that Albion has 2 stealthclasses that can climp inside keeps and that Midgard and Hibernia only got 1 class each that are capable of such actions.

According to Duskwave there's:

4.036 chars in Albion that have the ability to climb inside keeps

1.881 chars in Midgard

1.356 chars in Hibernia

Could someone tell me where the balance is?

Would be nice to hear some comments in this matter and not whines, for a change.

Thb.. whats ur fucking point? that u want bards to get climbwall? then give minstrels pbaoe... and when they charm a pet should it not intercept also then?..
lawl what a tard...

Should auto close all threads like this, pointless whine, nothing else

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by Rollie
How do you lose to SB, every SB ive spoke to says unless they have purge up they die to infs.

This isnt a dig at your personally, id just like to know how you die and others dont.

Depends on rr vs low rr infils you still got a chance with purge down ofc, but vs a rr6+ infil and my purge is down im dead 99% of the time's he get df in.

 

[infernalwrath]

Originally posted by phule_gubben
Just read some intersting info on Duskwave

All know that Albion has 2 stealthclasses that can climp inside keeps and that Midgard and Hibernia only got 1 class each that are capable of such actions.

According to Duskwave there's:

4.036 chars in Albion that have the ability to climb inside keeps

1.881 chars in Midgard

1.356 chars in Hibernia

Could someone tell me where the balance is?

Would be nice to hear some comments in this matter and not whines, for a change.

cba flaming him
no wait!1111

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by Rollie
How do you lose to SB, every SB ive spoke to says unless they have purge up they die to infs.

This isnt a dig at your personally, id just like to know how you die and others dont.

Because 'every' SB you've talked to is telling porkies or overexagerating.

SB damage output is fine - comparable to infils and ns. They have a 14% chance to stun compared to 18% for infils.

They're not losing every fight - a simple look at the deathspam in emain shows that. What they're fixating on are the fights they lose, not the ones they win. Plus they remember the bad old pre 1.62 days when a chimp could wtfpwn everything in sight with 'f8, stick, doublefrost'.

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Because 'every' SB you've talked to is telling porkies or overexagerating.

SB damage output is fine - comparable to infils and ns. They have a 14% chance to stun compared to 18% for infils.

They're not losing every fight - a simple look at the deathspam in emain shows that. What they're fixating on are the fights they lose, not the ones they win. Plus they remember the bad old pre 1.62 days when a chimp could wtfpwn everything in sight with 'f8, stick, doublefrost'.

kk

Would you say DF is the main reason SB's lose to infs?

And if so what kinda % of victories for an inf would you say DF is The deciding factor.

 

[lorric]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Because 'every' SB you've talked to is telling porkies or overexagerating.

SB damage output is fine - comparable to infils and ns. They have a 14% chance to stun compared to 18% for infils.

They're not losing every fight - a simple look at the deathspam in emain shows that. What they're fixating on are the fights they lose, not the ones they win. Plus they remember the bad old pre 1.62 days when a chimp could wtfpwn everything in sight with 'f8, stick, doublefrost'.

I agree with some of what u say here, i wouldnt say i lose against all infs with purge down everytime, i prolly lose more than i win but im happy with that. I just dont like the stun from evade make it like frosty second in a chain wouldnt be the only lvl 50 style that chains of another do the same with DB aswell.

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by Rollie
kk

Would you say DF is the main reason SB's lose to infs?

And if so what kinda % of victories for an inf would you say DF is The deciding factor.

That is a very good question, and a key one - but probably the hardest to answer without a good test facility.

Personally I don't find it the deciding factor that often. It only really decides the outcome for me (rr4 no bb) if it lands within the first 2 shots of a fight, where neither side has pulled off PA and where the target doesn't purge. Needless to say this combination is fairly rare.

Short answer - I don't know. Be a good one to test though.

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
That is a very good question, and a key one - but probably the hardest to answer without a good test facility.

Personally I don't find it the deciding factor that often. It only really decides the outcome for me (rr4 no bb) if it lands within the first 2 shots of a fight, where neither side has pulled off PA and where the target doesn't purge. Needless to say this combination is fairly rare.

Short answer - I don't know. Be a good one to test though.

Would be nice for some of the other honest infs to answer this.

If DF is "the" main reason (and im talking very high %) a SB loses to an Inf then people can question is fairness imho.

Personally ive always said assasins shouldnt have stuns off evades from combat lines (ie thrust/LA/Pierce) since they have Evade 7, only stuns should be in CS line.

 

[knoll]

Rollie thats what iwe been trying to say all the time remove evade based stun from evade7 classes would fix alot of problem not only for assasins fighting assasins.

inf/ns/sb should be using the CS line not speccing like a pure tank.
the only way u can compete today though.

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
LOL - sorry, you lost this one after the phrase 'proven all over vnboards'. It hasn't - you've had a load of crap on thevnboards (99% is the biggest pile of shite you can imagine) and huge numbers of whines based on single logs but no hard data or tests whatsoever. And its easy for the yanks to do - copy to test server and run fights - but has anyone posted any logs of these? No - and why is it that they haven't?

So sorry, if you're using vnboards - the boards mythic deliberately withdrew from - as any reliable measure then you really are clutching at straws.

What mackey said was that LA may have been overdone on SBs, and was looking for a 'quick fix', for 'the one thing' that would aid them. Said not a thing about infil power - but did mention the savages were up for another nerf.

But anyway - like I said proof gets things changed, and it is virtually non existant.

(And like I said - 1 video is 1 piece of a 1000 piece puzzle. On its own it is relatively meaningless).

People that play a class always tend to defend it, which in this case is pretty obvious. You can continue to defend infils and make a tit of yourself, I can't be asked to explain it to someone who is so one eyed that they share the same socket.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
[BSB damage output is fine - comparable to infils and ns. They have a 14% chance to stun compared to 18% for infils.[/B]

its 10% vs 17%, if I did the calcs right and its less on both than 14%/18% and the difference between is also larger.
Also you are unbuffed most of the time or atleat you claimed to be, so losing to SB's might just mean you ran into a buffed one...

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by driwen
its 10% vs 17%, if I did the calcs right and its less on both than 14%/18% and the difference between is also larger.
Also you are unbuffed most of the time or atleat you claimed to be, so losing to SB's might just mean you ran into a buffed one...

Deduct the chance that the hit is a fraction of a second after an evade, resulting in a higher reaction time to change styles to get the stun in; in comparison to just using the same backup styles until the stun lands. That increased reaction time alone can be enough to miss the style if you're swinging at or near swing cap.

10 vs 17 ( if those numbers are correct ) is if the SB play without a flaw.

 

[old.Lethul]

Originally posted by Whisperess
Deduct the chance that the hit is a fraction of a second after an evade, resulting in a higher reaction time to change styles to get the stun in; in comparison to just using the same backup styles until the stun lands. That increased reaction time alone can be enough to miss the style if you're swinging at or near swing cap.

10 vs 17 ( if those numbers are correct ) is if the SB play without a flaw.

happy birthay to you

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by old.Lethul
happy birthay to you

aww, how sweet

Thanks

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by driwen
its 10% vs 17%, if I did the calcs right and its less on both than 14%/18% and the difference between is also larger.
Also you are unbuffed most of the time or atleat you claimed to be, so losing to SB's might just mean you ran into a buffed one...

/shrug.

Your figs 10/17, Haldars 14/18 - I haven't proofed either of them.

An I was talking about equivalent buffed status - I know if I run into a buffed sb and I'm unbuffed then I'm toast.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
/shrug.

Your figs 10/17, Haldars 14/18 - I haven't proofed either of them.

An I was talking about equivalent buffed status - I know if I run into a buffed sb and I'm unbuffed then I'm toast.

the numbers are important if you talk about them and Haldar forgot that you can not only get evaded, but also miss and to make it a little fair there is the chance to possibly land DF in a 2nd round as it takes the SB 2 rounds to land it aswell. Leading to 10/17, not included the advantage of not having to react within 1 sec on your evade as you can evade just before you do your own style and then your next hit will land around 1.5 sec later and you might have a lag of 0.2. Leaving 1.3 sec to make up your mind for your next style, which isnt alot.
So dont think there isnt much difference between frosty graze and dragonfang, because there is a notable difference between the two. The one requires more attention to be spend to what is going on and is harder to land, the other is not in a chain and lasts longer but ok its a lvl 50 style. DF is notable better than FG and atleast dont try to sweep away that fact.


Btw donttouchpoopy you do know that a cleric isnt exactly the same as a shaman concerning buffs that have no range? And also know that mythic does assume that everyone is fully buffed when talking about PvP/RvR balance? So allthough your personal experience is important, there is the problem that it isnt the experience mythic bases their balance decision on. Also the fights could have been with higher RR SB's and certainly with the relics in their favour.

 

[Haldar]

ok, lets recalculate those figures.
assume that hit chance for Dfang is 93%, and for CB-FG is 88%. Dfang is higher bcoz it is high +tohit, and both CB and FG are med +hit. Both values are off-head, but should be fairly close to reality. Fumbles are not calculated bcoz they are completely random.

for infiltrator chance to land DF is:
0.25 (chance to evade) * 0.75 (chance of enemy not evade) * 0.93 (chance not to miss Dfang) = 17.4375%

for SB chance to land CB-FG is:
0.25 (chance to evade) * 0.75 (chance of enemy not evade CB) * 0.88 (chance not to miss CB) * 0.75 (chance of enemy not evade) * 0.88 (chance not to miss FG) = 10.89%

relative difference: (17.4375-10.89)/10.89 ~= 60.124%

So infiltrator have 60.124% more chance to land his stun.

 

[BidAccount]

Haldar - your calculations are interesting (as are driwens) but have a couple of other elements to factor in - plus you're being a little misleading with your percentages again.

It has been discussed that the to hit definitions (low/medium/high) are not fixed figures but have a range within that banding.

Secondly - yes 17 is 60% higher than 10, but the numbers are so small to use a 60% figure is misleading. For example base chance to crit is 5% - MOP2 takes that to 15%. Yes its 300% more crits - which sounds huge, but in reality instead of criting 5% of the time its 15% - or 10% more crits.

Still - I don't see this as a huge issue, as Diamondback comes out with the exact same figures.

 

[jox]

Some interesting numbers...

Last week rp's on Ex(the best 10);

Infil 1291
Minc 1097
Scout 1056

Tot 3444

sbs 950
Hunters 718

Tot 1668

Even if you would double the rp-income for mid stealthers we wouldnt even come close! and this with 2 relics, lol.

 

[old.Nol]

do infils spec delusion as opposed to stealth?

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by old.Nol
do infils spec delusion as opposed to stealth?

Still waiting for anything vaguely resembling proof to turn up.

What - you mean none of you whiners have any at all?

Wonder what that could mean?

 

[Driwen]

but diamondback has a 5 sec stun DF a 9 and FG a 7 and DB has medium to hit.
And you dont want to agree that relatively is important. If I would hit a mob for 2 damage and someone else would do it for 1. I would kill the mob twice as fast (assuming it doesnt regenerate health) than the other person, while I am only hitting for 1 more HP per round. You have to look at both to see it and ofc in infils advantage it is to just look at the cold percentages and for the SBs to look relatively. But doing both is the best.
Also Haldar calcs the chance on landing the stun, but imo it would be fair to add the chance on landing DF in the 2nd round aswell if it hasnt yet as the SB takes 2 rounds for it anyway.
Chance on missing the DF is 7.56% (after having evaded) and chance on landing it in 2nd round is 17.4%. So 1.3% chance on landing a DF after missing it in the earlier round (assuming you have to evade a 2nd time). So landing a stun within 2 rounds has a chance on 18.7% versus 10.9%. Which means 8% more chance to hit and if you think thats small on itself quad hit was around 15% and its now 5% iirc, people are now "happy" about it when it "only" decreased 10%? However it will also happen three times less than normally.

So DF has 7% or 8% chance more on landing (depending wether you want to compare with a 2nd round) and 60%/72% more relative chance on landing. Also dont forget that this is assuming that the SB doesnt miss him landing CB and pressing CB in again.

Also isnt the crit base chance 10%?

And haldars figures are correct, as I had calced the missrate wrong (i had added it with the evade instead of multiplying).

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by driwen
but diamondback has a 5 sec stun DF a 9 and FG a 7 and DB has medium to hit.
And you dont want to agree that relatively is important. If I would hit a mob for 2 damage and someone else would do it for 1. I would kill the mob twice as fast (assuming it doesnt regenerate health) than the other person, while I am only hitting for 1 more HP per round. You have to look at both to see it and ofc in infils advantage it is to just look at the cold percentages and for the SBs to look relatively. But doing both is the best.
Also Haldar calcs the chance on landing the stun, but imo it would be fair to add the chance on landing DF in the 2nd round aswell if it hasnt yet as the SB takes 2 rounds for it anyway.
Chance on missing the DF is 7.56% (after having evaded) and chance on landing it in 2nd round is 17.4%. So 1.3% chance on landing a DF after missing it in the earlier round (assuming you have to evade a 2nd time). So landing a stun within 2 rounds has a chance on 18.7% versus 10.9%. Which means 8% more chance to hit and if you think thats small on itself quad hit was around 15% and its now 5% iirc, people are now "happy" about it when it "only" decreased 10%? However it will also happen three times less than normally.

So DF has 7% or 8% chance more on landing (depending wether you want to compare with a 2nd round) and 60%/72% more relative chance on landing. Also dont forget that this is assuming that the SB doesnt miss him landing CB and pressing CB in again.

Also isnt the crit base chance 10%?

And haldars figures are correct, as I had calced the missrate wrong (i had added it with the evade instead of multiplying).

I could be very wrong on base crit chance.

And yes you're right - hitting for 2 per round instead of 1per round will finish it in half the time. However, when you post percentages they can be misleading when dealing with very small figures, so you have to give the whole picture. You may be doing 100% more damage, but when thats only 1 more point on say a 100hp target it becomes less relevant.

Taking your figures at face value DF has an 8% greater chance of hitting, for 2 seconds more duration for 450 more spec points. I wouldn't say thats a significant balance issue considering all points.

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by The Exile
Necro's can get pbae aswell

Necro pets can PBAOE - Necros in shade form cant even scratch their arses.

And we all know how good necro pets are :/

Give lvl 50 pets
Give resists
Give useable potions in shade form
Give RA's
Give pathing fixes
Give stuff

 

[Haldar]

It has been discussed that the to hit definitions (low/medium/high) are not fixed figures but have a range within that banding.

i mentioned it.

Secondly - yes 17 is 60% higher than 10, but the numbers are so small to use a 60% figure is misleading.

ok. a simple explanation.

suppose Dfang can only be executed when infiltrator has exactly 58%<=hp<59% health, and it works as a non-resistable insta cast shout which doesnt use power or end. The chance of landing it is exactly 1%. And suppose chance to lang FG stays same.

we'd have 10.89% vs 1% here. i bet infi's would cry that they are underpowered....and i'd answer - relax guys, real difference is only 9.89%.

and fyi, base chance to crit is 10%, not 5.

 

[Haldar]

Taking your figures at face value DF has an 8% greater chance of hitting, for 2 seconds more duration for 450 more spec points. I wouldn't say thats a significant balance issue considering all points.

wish i'd get same fucking 8% (which is 60% in fact) for extra +75 hp we got.

 

[BidAccount]

Considering all points its not a significnt issue - hell wish I had access to permahaste and conc based haste - the speed some of these SBs swing at is insane.

 

[Haldar]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Considering all points its not a significnt issue - hell wish I had access to permahaste and conc based haste - the speed some of these SBs swing at is insane.

trading away haste buff for af buff!

 

[Xandax]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
<snip>
Taking your figures at face value DF has an 8% greater chance of hitting, for 2 seconds more duration for 450 more spec points. I wouldn't say thats a significant balance issue considering all points.

Factor in the styles that are possible after the stun has landed.

Infils and NS have the possibility to use evade chains after DF have landed.

SBs have no chance for this- unless they evade twice in a row.

A factor into the value of stun.

Also - 450 more points into weapon equals higher weapon skill.

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by Xandax
Factor in the styles that are possible after the stun has landed.

Infils and NS have the possibility to use evade chains after DF have landed.

SBs have no chance for this- unless they evade twice in a row.

A factor into the value of stun.

Also - 450 more points into weapon equals higher weapon skill.

I agree with the post stun chain issue - should reset the last result flag to 'neutral' after the stun.

Yes 450 points = higher ws, but thats 450 points not spent on CS or DW. So most infil temps are high thrust, average all other lines.