Classbalance (stealthers)

[Powahhh]

Originally posted by phule_gubben
Just read some intersting info on Duskwave

All know that Albion has 2 stealthclasses that can climp inside keeps and that Midgard and Hibernia only got 1 class each that are capable of such actions.

According to Duskwave there's:

4.036 chars in Albion that have the ability to climb inside keeps

1.881 chars in Midgard

1.356 chars in Hibernia

Could someone tell me where the balance is?

Would be nice to hear some comments in this matter and not whines, for a change.

healers can heal and CC
healers got insta and castable ae stun hib/alb don't have such thing
welll who speaks about balance ?

 

[lorric]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Point is it hasn't proved unbalancing on either the euro or US servers - on paper it causes big whines but in reality its relatively insignificant.

Ah and proof - those fabled 'dozens of logs' that no-one can ever lay their hands on. Or 1 video.

1 log/1 video is like 1 piece of a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle. You may get a vague idea of a tiny piece of the picture - but you sure as hell don't have an idea of the full picture.

Anyway - pretty pointless. No-one on either US or Euro servers has been able to prove infils are overpowered, and besides mythic aren't even looking at them. Time to find a new whine really.

Your the same as all those pre nerf SZ that were positive there was nothing wrong with 3 shoting other classes wouldnt accept any argument saying otherwise.

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by lorric
Your the same as all those pre nerf SZ that were positive there was nothing wrong with 3 shoting other classes wouldnt accept any argument saying otherwise.

One slight difference - mythic knew about the istake. Oh and the largescale submission of logs and data to mythic from testers.

So when you've got those logs and teststogether just feel free to go ahead and send them to mythic.

kthxbye.

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Point is it hasn't proved unbalancing on either the euro or US servers - on paper it causes big whines but in reality its relatively insignificant.

Ah and proof - those fabled 'dozens of logs' that no-one can ever lay their hands on. Or 1 video.

1 log/1 video is like 1 piece of a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle. You may get a vague idea of a tiny piece of the picture - but you sure as hell don't have an idea of the full picture.

Anyway - pretty pointless. No-one on either US or Euro servers has been able to prove infils are overpowered, and besides mythic aren't even looking at them. Time to find a new whine really.

Sorry mate, but it's been pretty much proven all over vnboards, you just need to take the time to read the stuff. Mackey also stated that SB's are inferior after the LA nerf.

You seem to be the only person that thinks infiltrators are a balanced class, if it's just wind up then good for you, if you honestly believe it then you're as deluded to balance as 95% of savages.

All realms have their overpowered char, mid have savages, hib have enchanters and alb have infils.

 

[old.Lethul]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Point is it hasn't proved unbalancing on either the euro or US servers - on paper it causes big whines but in reality its relatively insignificant.

Ah and proof - those fabled 'dozens of logs' that no-one can ever lay their hands on. Or 1 video.

1 log/1 video is like 1 piece of a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle. You may get a vague idea of a tiny piece of the picture - but you sure as hell don't have an idea of the full picture.

Anyway - pretty pointless. No-one on either US or Euro servers has been able to prove infils are overpowered, and besides mythic aren't even looking at them. Time to find a new whine really.

Yea. Not like that video is set up so that everything is in the SBs favour. Not like he's using an unuseable spec just to get the most possible melee dmg. Not like he's fighting a CS spec inf that's only gonna get more of an advantage if he gets to start the fight with perf (like a real encounter). Not like the SB initiates every single duel so he gets atleast one free un-debuffed hit each fight. Not like he got owned 8/10 duels.

Oh wait! All of the above did happen.

The only setup where he had a fighting chance was when you took all of the above and THEN inf dropped his af buff, THEN sb used af charge. When all of those conditions where met, the fight was about even with even a slight advantage to the sb. That's a lot of conditions that need to be met to have a fair chance against another class if as you say infs aren't really overpowered.

...Or it could just be that infs are overpowered in stealther fights.

You can be dense and stick with the first option or you can look at the simple facts and accept that the second option is indeed the correct one.

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by old.Nol
Sorry mate, but it's been pretty much proven all over vnboards, you just need to take the time to read the stuff. Mackey also stated that SB's are inferior after the LA nerf.

You seem to be the only person that thinks infiltrators are a balanced class, if it's just wind up then good for you, if you honestly believe it then you're as deluded to balance as 95% of savages.

All realms have their overpowered char, mid have savages, hib have enchanters and alb have infils.

LOL - sorry, you lost this one after the phrase 'proven all over vnboards'. It hasn't - you've had a load of crap on thevnboards (99% is the biggest pile of shite you can imagine) and huge numbers of whines based on single logs but no hard data or tests whatsoever. And its easy for the yanks to do - copy to test server and run fights - but has anyone posted any logs of these? No - and why is it that they haven't?

So sorry, if you're using vnboards - the boards mythic deliberately withdrew from - as any reliable measure then you really are clutching at straws.

What mackey said was that LA may have been overdone on SBs, and was looking for a 'quick fix', for 'the one thing' that would aid them. Said not a thing about infil power - but did mention the savages were up for another nerf.

But anyway - like I said proof gets things changed, and it is virtually non existant.

(And like I said - 1 video is 1 piece of a 1000 piece puzzle. On its own it is relatively meaningless).

 

[lorric]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
One slight difference - mythic knew about the istake. Oh and the largescale submission of logs and data to mythic from testers.

So when you've got those logs and teststogether just feel free to go ahead and send them to mythic.

kthxbye.

Mythic only took an intrest after the whine went through the roof.

I was CB before the nerf and now im LA and i think its more than fine, but your die hard defence either makes u a forum troll baiting for flames or a deluded zerger.

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by lorric
Mythic only took an intrest after the whine went through the roof.

I was CB before the nerf and now im LA and i think its more than fine, but your die hard defence either makes u a forum troll baiting for flames or a deluded zerger.

Or option 3 - correct.

Because if I'm not you, or someone else, can prove that I'm not can't they? So come on then - lets be having the hard proof that infils are overpowered.

(And btw there have been many many whines on the vnboards, but strangely mythic haven't acted on the whines about friars, theurgists (yanks really are dumb), minstrels, necromancers, bolt range mez etc. Can you guess why this is?)

 

[lorric]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Or option 3 - correct.

Because if I'm not you, or someone else, can prove that I'm not can't they? So come on then - lets be having the hard proof that infils are overpowered.

(And btw there have been many many whines on the vnboards, but strangely mythic haven't acted on the whines about friars, theurgists (yanks really are dumb), minstrels, necromancers, bolt range mez etc. Can you guess why this is?)

It took em ages to Nerf LA from when the whines started my guess is mythic dont give a shit what people think untill it becomes to hard to ignore. My quick fix for DF is make it chain of parry

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by lorric
It took em ages to Nerf LA from when the whines started my guess is mythic dont give a shit what people think untill it becomes to hard to ignore. My quick fix for DF is make it chain of parry

Did originally, before being moved to evade.

And a parry reactionery would be fantastic - but I don't think midgard would like it. Mercs are proliferating and a thrust merc with 9 sec stun off parry would rock against mid classes.

So yes please - I'd support that.

 

[marczje]

All you do is pointing out possible wrong arguments from 'whiners' but yet you can't prove at all they are not overpowered.. 9sec stun as reactionary style on evade, on an evade 7 class.. without purge up, it's almost impossible to win when they get it in.

Really, if you would fight infils everyday, and get killed because of df.. You would whine, it's just everyone likes their class to be good/best, and so do u, difference is u dont admit ur class is, while it's pretty obvious.

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by lorric
My quick fix for DF is make it chain of parry

No thanks

Of block or something would be better

 

[lorric]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Did originally, before being moved to evade.

And a parry reactionery would be fantastic - but I don't think midgard would like it. Mercs are proliferating and a thrust merc with 9 sec stun off parry would rock against mid classes.

So yes please - I'd support that.

Fg rvr how much chance will the merc get to parry all the assisitng tanks? and it will prolly not work if some pally or wotnot slams before anyway

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by marczje
All you do is pointing out possible wrong arguments from 'whiners' but yet you can't prove at all they are not overpowered.. 9sec stun as reactionary style on evade, on an evade 7 class.. without purge up, it's almost impossible to win when they get it in.

Really, if you would fight infils everyday, and get killed because of df.. You would whine, it's just everyone likes their class to be good/best, and so do u, difference is u dont admit ur class is, while it's pretty obvious.

Sigh - tried explaining this to the terminally dense before, but here we go AGAIN.

1. Mythic assumes balance unless proven otherwise. This relates to class and realm. So mythics position is that a class is fine unless you prove it is not.

2. Your position assumes the reverse - that a class is overpowered unless its proven not to be. This is illogical, by your argument ALL Daoc classes are therefore overpowered.

Think of it as the same premise of innocent until proven guilty. You cannot assume a class is overpowered and then ask for proof that its not - by this logic SBs are clearly overpowered. Care to prove they aren't?

The burden of proof is on the accuser. So because you believe they are overpowered, it falls to you to make your case. This has not been done - either here or in the US, and a number of US anti infil campaigners after looking in to the facts have changed their tune (check the IRS scores - infils are very very average, which is inconsistent with the unkillable rvr gods a few trolls make them out to be).

So over to you - waiting to hear your proof.

 

[marczje]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Sigh - tried explaining this to the terminally dense before, but here we go AGAIN.

1. Mythic assumes balance unless proven otherwise. This relates to class and realm. So mythics position is that a class is fine unless you prove it is not.

2. Your position assumes the reverse - that a class is overpowered unless its proven not to be. This is illogical, by your argument ALL Daoc classes are therefore overpowered.

Think of it as the same premise of innocent until proven guilty. You cannot assume a class is overpowered and then ask for proof that its not - by this logic SBs are clearly overpowered. Care to prove they aren't?

The burden of proof is on the accuser. So because you believe they are overpowered, it falls to you to make your case. This has not been done - either here or in the US, and a number of US anti infil campaigners after looking in to the facts have changed their tune (check the IRS scores - infils are very very average, which is inconsistent with the unkillable rvr gods a few trolls make them out to be).

So over to you - waiting to hear your proof.

Heh nvm, u clearly won't see

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by marczje
Heh nvm, u clearly won't see

lol - good response!

Why not just put your hands over your ears and say 'La La La I'm not listening'?

If you can prove they are then do it - its put up or shut up time. But no-one has been able to - here or in the US, despite having very good testing facilities in the US. Now its either because they're too lazy to test (but not too lazy to start countless pointless whine threads) or that they can't prove it.

 

[lorric]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
lol - good response!

Why not just put your hands over your ears and say 'La La La I'm not listening'?

Thats your job .

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by lorric
Thats your job .

Oh I'm listening intently, waiting for these pages and pages of proof that are apparently all over the place.

So come on - put up or shut up.

 

[lorric]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Oh I'm listening intently, waiting for these pages and pages of proof that are apparently all over the place.

So come on - put up or shut up.

Im not intrested in proving anything only thing i dont like about Infs is DF dont like DB on NS either but atleast its a shorter stun (which you think is fine on a high evade class) other than that the class is fine and even if i was inclined to try and test these things i wouldnt waste time on you.

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by phule_gubben
Just read some intersting info on Duskwave

All know that Albion has 2 stealthclasses that can climp inside keeps and that Midgard and Hibernia only got 1 class each that are capable of such actions.

According to Duskwave there's:

4.036 chars in Albion that have the ability to climb inside keeps

1.881 chars in Midgard

1.356 chars in Hibernia

Could someone tell me where the balance is?

Would be nice to hear some comments in this matter and not whines, for a change.

who gives a shit about climbing into keeps anyway?

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by lorric
Im not intrested in proving anything only thing i dont like about Infs is DF dont like DB on NS either but atleast its a shorter stun (which you think is fine on a high evade class) other than that the class is fine and even if i was inclined to try and test these things i wouldnt waste time on you.

Ah, so now the crux of the matter. You don't like something - this is a world apart from 'overpowered'.

I don't like SBs - I hate them with a passion and will do all I can to exterminate the little vermin from the frontiers. Doesn't mean I think they're overpowered.

 

[lorric]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Ah, so now the crux of the matter. You don't like something - this is a world apart from 'overpowered'.

I don't like SBs - I hate them with a passion and will do all I can to exterminate the little vermin from the frontiers. Doesn't mean I think they're overpowered.

where did i say infs are overpowered? and tbh to hate something in a game is sad its like hating the people behind the char when u dont even know them.

 

[marczje]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
lol - good response!

Why not just put your hands over your ears and say 'La La La I'm not listening'?

Oh come on, that's exactly what you are doing..
can't u see?

The Shadowblades pre-nerf knew they were overpowered, ofcourse they didnt like getting nerfed..

Most Infiltrators know they're overpowered (Warderzerg at amg emain rising every day, wonder why they jump on the bandwagon, maybe cos they're actually overpowered, like at MTK 'Savage lfg' ..) I don't have any test proof, but I can talk from own experiences, and so do many mids, hibs and prolly some albs might realise it too.

Anyways i'll stop this as you obviously can't seem to understand why people whine about it,

Why not just put your hands over your ears and say 'La La La I'm not listening'?

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by marczje
Oh come on, that's exactly what you are doing..
can't u see?

The Shadowblades pre-nerf knew they were overpowered, ofcourse they didnt like getting nerfed..

Most Infiltrators know they're overpowered (Warderzerg at amg emain rising every day, wonder why they jump on the bandwagon, maybe cos they're actually overpowered, like at MTK 'Savage lfg' ..) I don't have any test proof, but I can talk from own experiences, and so do many mids, hibs and prolly some albs might realise it too.

Anyways i'll stop this as you obviously can't seem to understand why people whine about it,

Why not just put your hands over your ears and say 'La La La I'm not listening'?

No - if you check my posts what you'll find me saying a lot is 'post some proof please'.

I'm very tired, and very annoyed, by idiots who make unsubstantiated statements and claim that its 'obvious' or 'everyone knows' where the reality is the opposite.

Stupidity breeds stupidity - if enough people say it, it becomes 'fact'. I chose to question that - which gets up a few peoples noses when their 'facts' don't have any basis.

And population = overpowered? Then the armsman and paladin must be pretty damn powerful characters. Popular does not necessarily equal overpowered.

 

[knoll]

like i said in many previous posts. remove all stun styles from assasins with that i mean NS/SB/INF only stun should come from creeping death.

no Assasin class should be able to pwn the way they do with out speccing CS.

a small fix to CS line like nerf end usage on anytime style to medium, and give SB's a nice RA and another dmg type.

then everything would be as it is supposed to be.

 

[Haldar]

So over to you - waiting to hear your proof.

what u need as a proof??

i post log - u say it's useless
i post screen - u say SB played poorly

what u need as a proof?? a shitload of logs and screens??

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by Haldar
what u need as a proof??

i post log - u say it's useless
u post screen - u say SB played poorly

what u need as a proof?? a shitload of logs and screens??

Haldar - I said neither of those things.

I said one log is not proof on its own - it is one piece of a very large puzzle. If I posted a log of a SB kicking my ass and outdamaging me, would you accept it as the basis for nerfing SBs more?

Proof is multiple logs, systematic tests, clearly stated hypothesis etc.

 

[marczje]

Just to make sure i understand the meaning of ur post correctly..
So:
You are annoyed by idiots (Assuming u also mean me, or particulairly me) making those posts, expressing their opinion about the class.

k

Then the thing about 'everyone says'... .. as i already stated i play vs. infils all the time and i can say this from own experience. Ofcourse you don't have to believe it, or from many other people, or from a video..

And no, i didnt say population is overpowered, but certainly if the class is good many ppl will play it.
and yes, u ever thought of pala's being pve gods? or necro's? they dont nessecarily have to be overpowered in rvr, in this case with the infil they are imo.

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by marczje
Just to make sure i understand the meaning of ur post correctly..
So:
You are annoyed by idiots (Assuming u also mean me, or particulairly me) making those posts, expressing their opinion about the class.

k

Then the thing about 'everyone says'... .. as i already stated i play vs. infils all the time and i can say this from own experience. Ofcourse you don't have to believe it, or from many other people, or from a video..

And no, i didnt say population is overpowered, but certainly if the class is good many ppl will play it.
and yes, u ever thought of pala's being pve gods? or necro's? they dont nessecarily have to be overpowered in rvr, in this case with the infil they are imo.

The idiot comment was not directed at you specifically - at the moment I accept you're being rational and reasoned in your response.

Personal experience and anecdote is not proof. As i say I get my ass kicked by SBs regularly - if I accept your logic that infils are overpowered, having my ass kicked by another class makes them even more powerful than me. Therefore SBs are overpowered, because in my experience I lose to them a great deal.

Valid logs and test scenarios I do believe - however these are few and far between. Interestingly in the US where a test server exists no data of this sort has been forthcoming - I can only conclude that they are either too lazy to do this (but not too lazy to whine on the boards) or that the test data outcome received does not support their argument.

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
The idiot comment was not directed at you specifically - at the moment I accept you're being rational and reasoned in your response.

Personal experience and anecdote is not proof. As i say I get my ass kicked by SBs regularly - if I accept your logic that infils are overpowered, having my ass kicked by another class makes them even more powerful than me. Therefore SBs are overpowered, because in my experience I lose to them a great deal.

Valid logs and test scenarios I do believe - however these are few and far between. Interestingly in the US where a test server exists no data of this sort has been forthcoming - I can only conclude that they are either too lazy to do this (but not too lazy to whine on the boards) or that the test data outcome received does not support their argument.

How do you lose to SB, every SB ive spoke to says unless they have purge up they die to infs.

This isnt a dig at your personally, id just like to know how you die and others dont.