Clarifications

[skile]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
ack, the point pin is trying to make, is DONT expect to be good in melee, if you dont spec for melee ffs.



Assasins are designed for Melee, thats ALL they do, give us 2200 range PAs and i'd be more than happy to have archer level melee.


Reminds me of the minstrels with 10 stealth whining that 'minstrel stealth' is nerfed

Carlos, why IN EARTH should I specc a fekking mayor meleegimp. Just to have a bit more of a chance vs assasins. Such a scout would in no way be comparable to a SB.

FIX archers (esp scouts), make them decent. Remove see hidden, remove true sight. I won't go after SB's, u won't go after me. I'm happy with that, fully.

If I wanted a good melee stealth class id roll a infiltrator, but I don't want one, I want a ARCHER!!!!!.

 

[Tranquil-]

1H melee doesn't give alot of room for alot of damage. The few percent extra damage going from a medium melee template to a high melee template doesn't give alot of bang for the buck considering the low base damage on the 1H's.

 

[Tranquil-]

And the point of speccing higher longbow isn't the damage increase, it's the weaponskill increase.

Combine unbuffed weaponskill and medium longbow with no tohit chance on archery and you notice the difference.

Weaponskill helps indirectly with to-hit chances since weaponskill is compared to blockskill and evadeskill to determine a block/evade.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by skile


Dragonfang or slam, can still be purged my dear Pin. Can still be evaded. I have 42+13 in shield atm. Thats 55, should be hitting quite a bit.

PA, stun. Well here my so called good melee archers is killed without moving. Debuffs poision, cripple. Evade 7?

9% absorb difference isn't leather vs plate really.

Purge is a Realm ability so can't really be counted on class abilities, seeing as Debuffs poison, crippling can also be Purged, AND resisted. our stuns can also miss, and you get the bonus of being able to block our stun, while we have to rely on evade (which was nerfed this patch btw...i aint evaded 1 slam yet).

also, Dragonfang has a bonus to hit, while Creeping death, and Slam, do not


Assasins are designed to kill archers/stealthers, live with it, or get a group


If you want better melee, spec for it..


atm your asking to be able to kill viable specced chars, in melee, with your non melee orientated char.


it's almost on par with mages whining because they can't melee

 

[Tranquil-]

You can reapply poisons Carlos.

 

[skile]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos


Purge is a Realm ability so can't really be counted on class abilities, seeing as Debuffs poison, crippling can also be Purged, AND resisted. our stuns can also miss, and you get the bonus of being able to block our stun, while we have to rely on evade (which was nerfed this patch btw...i aint evaded 1 slam yet).

also, Dragonfang has a bonus to hit, while Creeping death, and Slam, do not


Assasins are designed to kill archers/stealthers, live with it, or get a group


If you want better melee, spec for it..


atm your asking to be able to kill viable specced chars, in melee, with your non melee orientated char.


it's almost on par with mages whining because they can't melee

Ok, so what you are saying=

You need IP = 23 points
You need TS = 10 points
You need Purge = 10 points
You need MoP = 4-10 points
You need Thoughness = 4 points
You need dodger (4?) = thats 15 points

Thats RR8? Just to be something similar to a assasin, only less good.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by skile


Carlos, why IN EARTH should I specc a fekking mayor meleegimp. Just to have a bit more of a chance vs assasins. Such a scout would in no way be comparable to a SB.

FIX archers (esp scouts), make them decent. Remove see hidden, remove true sight. I won't go after SB's, u won't go after me. I'm happy with that, fully.

If I wanted a good melee stealth class id roll a infiltrator, but I don't want one, I want a ARCHER!!!!!.

roflmao, do you understand what your saying?!

So lemem get this straight, you view of balance, is to be able to snipe from 2200 range for damage scaling upto 1k, to be able to avoid total detection, AND to be able to sucessfully melee a melee based character with next to no spec in thrust, which again has a pentaly (maybe maybe neutral) to shadowblade armour.

Listen to this one, i think i have a plan....If you want to be able to beat Shadowblades, spec 50 slash.

That is all, You can't have ranged damage and close combat damage, simple as that.

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos


but, this is generally high RR tanks (almost worked on Sigfi yesterday....twice..beat him both times but kiting didn't work)

You didn't "beat" Sighfi at all. You and you're buffbot beat him. Stop deluding yourself.

 

[Tranquil-]

Archers can choose between wanting to hit once more for 60-100ish damage with melee with a higher meleeskill or they can chose to spec bow higher to get in one more hit with bow. Bow damage > 1H melee damage.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by skile


Ok, so what you are saying=

You need IP = 23 points
You need TS = 10 points
You need Purge = 10 points
You need MoP = 4-10 points
You need Thoughness = 4 points
You need dodger (4?) = thats 15 points

Thats RR8? Just to be something similar to a assasin, only less good.

No, i didni't mention RAs, my point is, you ARE NOT somthing similar to an assasin, just because you come from the same base class, doesn't meanyour entitled to thier abilities, strengths, or weaknesses.

If you want to be similar to an assasin, go that extra step further and roll one.

YOU chose your spec, either melee orientated to fight assasins (50 slash) or sniper orientated (50 LB).

you have the choice, if melee spec doesn't appeal to you, dont cry about it being under par damage

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman


You didn't "beat" Sighfi at all. You and you're buffbot beat him. Stop deluding yourself.

My buffbot computer crashed, what other reason would i kite a paladin?

if i had my bot on, i'd just have killed him in 3-4 doublefrosts.


I'm overpowered, Cry me a river, or roll a Friar an stfu.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by skile


Dragonfang or slam, can still be purged my dear Pin. Can still be evaded. I have 42+13 in shield atm. Thats 55, should be hitting quite a bit.

Whether you're evaded or not depends HUGELY on your weaponskill. You will get evaded FAR FAR FAR more on a slam than on a Dragonfang. Slam also uses far more endurance than Dragonfang, so it won't be so critical to land it 1st or second time.

Also, if you didn't know, your weaponskill with shield (chance to land a shield style, damage done with shield styles) is based on Str (only shield block rates are based on Dex), so as a Rogue with low Str, but high Dex you will land with Dragonfang FAR easier than you will with slam (not only because it would be specced to 50+13).


Yes, stun can be purged. Then you might get beated by someone using a 30-minute active RA, not like that ever happens to an assassin either, is it?

Originally posted by skile
PA, stun. Well here my so called good melee archers is killed without moving. Debuffs poision, cripple. Evade 7?

So purge can only get mentioned when it is being used against you? You wouldn't think of purging their stun and poisons?

If you take Dodger 3 you'll also have a high evade rate, and by taking Dodger you are only closing this gap now there is a cap on evade.

Originally posted by skile
9% absorb difference isn't leather vs plate really.

You have a higher absorb than assassins. It wasn't me that was doing a comparison to a tank in plate.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Adding to Pins Tips...

Incase it's unknown among archers (why they all spec thrust without taking it to 50 i'll never know...)

Slash has a penalty to Studded armour.
Slash has a Bonus to SB Leather.


If you wanna fight assasins, Figure it out.

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos



My buffbot computer crashed, what other reason would i kite a paladin?

if i had my bot on, i'd just have killed him in 3-4 doublefrosts.


I'm overpowered, Cry me a river, or roll a Friar an stfu.

LOL oh relax. So I was wrong. And no, I don't need to roll a friar thanks, quite happy with my armsman

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman



LOL oh relax. So I was wrong. And no, I don't need to roll a friar thanks, quite happy with my armsman

Wouldn't you rather have a stronger tank with buffs, heals and assasin like evade?

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
Adding to Pins Tips...

Incase it's unknown among archers (why they all spec thrust without taking it to 50 i'll never know...)

Slash has a penalty to Studded armour.
Slash has a Bonus to SB Leather.


If you wanna fight assasins, Figure it out.

I don't agree that Scouts should use slash. They may lose 20% damage to SBs by going Thrust, but they lose 20% weaponskill by going Slash (which means they hit less and hit for less).



Anyway Skile, all arguments go out the window if you're determined to fight all your battles unbuffed. You'll lose, and then you'll cry, and then you'll lose some more. Stop trying to be a martyr and you might enjoy the game (and life) a bit more.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Pin


I don't agree that Scouts should use slash. They may lose 20% damage to SBs by going Thrust, but they lose 20% weaponskill by going Slash (which means they hit less and hit for less).



Anyway Skile, all arguments go out the window if you're determined to fight all your battles unbuffed. You'll lose, and then you'll cry, and then you'll lose some more. Stop trying to be a martyr and you might enjoy the game (and life) a bit more.

Surly a Scout can hit hardcap on str anyway?


i know Kobalds can, i'd assume scouts could 2.



Blade Rangers tear shadowblades appart..


Go read ranger VN board, it's quite funny while the Ranger TL in his Reports, asks for ranger love, then boasts his Ranger regulary out melees shadowblades

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos


Wouldn't you rather have a stronger tank with buffs, heals and assasin like evade?

And wear a dress? Not for me thanks.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos

Surly a Scout can hit hardcap on str anyway?

i know Kobalds can, i'd assume scouts could 2.

Blade Rangers tear shadowblades appart..

Go read ranger VN board, it's quite funny while the Ranger TL in his Reports, asks for ranger love, then boasts his Ranger regulary out melees shadowblades

For a start, Scouts (unlike Rangers) don't get self-buffs and Skile is a big buffbot whiner so he's likely running around with ~150 Str and ~220 Dex.

With 50 base Str, he'd have to have added 18 at creation, be capped from items, have full buffs and take Aug Str 3 to cap to over 300 Str, but yeah... they can hit the cap (and have it all debuffed away with an enervating poison )

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by skile
People do seem to forget that TS (read this now) is on a 30 MINUTE timer. Thats 1/2 of an hour. So I should go afk at atk 30 mins to kill something? No, I won't. A scout is good every 30 mins, well a assasin is good every second.

Yeah, but how often do you think an assassin with no SH will see an archer from Clip-range? You didn't make your Scout to hunt assassins did you?

 

[kaod]

Moving the thread isn't going to get me off your back Skile.

If me missing a PA on you is to give you a god given right to own me in melee, then everytime you miss a crit shot on me with a bow, I want to be able to take you down - at range, with throwing daggers.

This is your logic. Most of what you have ever posted in both the threads in condradictory, and it's hard to understand what you actually mean.
If the problem is that scouts are crap at range hitting - then that needs fixing - not nerfing a class that should be able to kill you, and does because your tactics are based on brute force only.

It's a waste of time responding to your whining anymore, you just can't seem to understand simple concepts and miss out parts that show any arguments you have to be wrong.

You want to play a scout like a tank - you'll die like a fool.

Good day and good luck - point me in your direction sometime, I would like the easy rps.

 

[Pin]

Re: Re: Clarifications

Originally posted by kaod
I want to be able to take you down - at range, with throwing daggers.

OMFG FFS NERF!!!

 

[Tranquil-]

High scout melee will not enable you to melee down assassins, I have already explained why high melee doesn't give enough damage because of the 1H limitations. And the increase in weaponskill causing decreased evades will not enable you to solo an assassin either. The only thing that will surprise them is when you dragonfang them. Which they still can purge. Which effect can still be obtained by shield. Which will give scouts more, for more purposes than what 50 thrust will.

If Dragonfang could be obtained at 39 thrust, would infiltrators still spec 50 thrust? No. The shieldspec gives more utility than the Thrust specline.

And about purging poisons. Assassins can just equip another blade with a poison on.

edit: wording.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Tranquil-
High scout melee will not enable you to melee down assassins, I have already explained why high melee doesn't give enough damage because of the 1H limitations.

Misconception there. 1H melee does do enough damage to out-melee assassins.

Originally posted by Tranquil-
And the increase in weaponskill causing decreased evades will not enable you to solo an assassin either. The only thing that will surprise them is when you dragonfang them. Which they still can purge. Which effect can still be obtained by shield. Which will give you more, for more purposes than what 50 thrust will.

I've already said why Dragonfang stun is better than Slam. Better for End, more likely to land (as in TWICE as likely to land). You are then not forced to break from melee, wait for 2 seconds to avoid being interrupted before nocking your arrows which will likely miss due to archery being nerfed to hell.

With 50 Thrust spec you will easily do as much damage in that 9 second stun as you would from 2 the possible 2 bow shots you can get after a slam, and do the damage with more consistency than having a shot interrupted, miss, fumble, etc.


If you notice, the spec I gave said 29 shield spec aswell. You still have Engage and Guard, etc, and a 7 second stun off a block if you need it, you have lower block rate than with 42 shield, but you aren't losing all the utility that shield gives you.

Originally posted by Tranquil-
If Dragonfang could be obtained at 39 thrust, would you still spec 50 thrust? No. The shieldspec gives you more utility than the Thrust specline.

Would I still spec to 50 Thrust? DAMN RIGHT I WOULD!! Weaponskill is EVERYTHING. If I thought otherwise I wouldn't be currently have all this +Thrust and have 68 total Thrust, would I?

Originally posted by Tranquil-
And about purging poisons. Assassins can just equip another blade with a poison on.

99% of the time I can't be arsed applying another poison. I only switch weapons for additional targets. Not nearly enough time to do that sort of thing in practice.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
Adding to Pins Tips...

Incase it's unknown among archers (why they all spec thrust without taking it to 50 i'll never know...)

Slash has a penalty to Studded armour.
Slash has a Bonus to SB Leather.


If you wanna fight assasins, Figure it out.

Also what you say about studded is WRONG.

Albion studded is neutral to slash, vulnerable to thrust and resistant to crush.

Midgard studded is neutral to crush, vulnerable to slash and resistant to thrust.

Midgard Leather is vulnerable to slash, yes, neutral to crush and resistant to thrust.

Albion Leather is neutral to slash, vulnerable to crush.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by Pin
Misconception there. 1H melee does do enough damage to out-melee assassins.

Not considering that assassins are on the same HP table, same basedamage 1H melee table but can wield two weapons and has a higher evade. And don't forget poisons. Scouts do get 9% more absorb but that and shield(has a 50% penalty to dual wielders) doesn't compare at all to evade/DW/CD/LA.

I've already said why Dragonfang stun is better than Slam. Better for End, more likely to land (as in TWICE as likely to land). You are then not forced to break from melee, wait for 2 seconds to avoid being interrupted before nocking your arrows which will likely miss due to archery being nerfed to hell.

Waiting for an evade takes time aswell and endurance potions is an option. You also know that DF's also can be evaded. It's not fail safe and 50 thrust makes you more of a one trick pony than what the shield specline does.

You can miss alot with archery yes, but it's also possible to run through the assassin after a slam and shoot them in the back while at the same time get a chance to flee if the purge it.

With 50 Thrust spec you will easily do as much damage in that 9 second stun as you would from 2 the possible 2 bow shots you can get after a slam, and do the damage with more consistency than having a shot interrupted, miss, fumble, etc.

But you don't get the option to flee if they purge Dragonfang. Considering you have purge aswell though.

If you notice, the spec I gave said 29 shield spec aswell. You still have Engage and Guard, etc, and a 7 second stun off a block if you need it, you have lower block rate than with 42 shield, but you aren't losing all the utility that shield gives you.

The spec you gave doesn't add up with points.

Would I still spec to 50 Thrust? DAMN RIGHT I WOULD!! Weaponskill is EVERYTHING. If I thought otherwise I wouldn't be currently have all this +Thrust and have 68 total Thrust, would I?

68 total thrust wouldn't enable a scout to outmelee an equal RR assassin though. And shieldspec/higher Longbow would give you more utility in the direction Mythic wants scouts aswell. You are correct that weaponskill is important though.

99% of the time I can't be arsed applying another poison. I only switch weapons for additional targets. Not nearly enough time to do that sort of thing in practice.

It IS possible. If you just go out of combatmode and put on the weapon you will barely notice a delay if you have no lag.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Tranquil-



Also what you say about studded is WRONG.

Albion studded is neutral to slash, vulnerable to thrust and resistant to crush.

Midgard studded is neutral to crush, vulnerable to slash and resistant to thrust.

Midgard Leather is vulnerable to slash, yes, neutral to crush and resistant to thrust.

Albion Leather is neutral to slash, vulnerable to crush.

Thank you for clarifying my point, by speccing slash, they would do more damage against midgard leather, if they want to beat SBs, they have to spec for it, like SZs spec for fighting assasins, like infils spec for dragonfang.

The way he is asking, he wants to have the best of all worlds, without spending any spec points

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Tranquil-


Not considering that assassins are on the same HP table, same basedamage 1H melee table but can wield two weapons and has a higher evade. And don't forget poisons. Scouts do get 9% more absorb but that and shield(has a 50% penalty to dual wielders) doesn't compare at all to evade/DW/CD/LA.

I agree that it is lower damage, but you arent substatially worse off when you consider that evade is capped etc.

And as block is halved by DW, what good does that extra shield spec really do you?

Originally posted by Tranquil-

Waiting for an evade takes time aswell and endurance potions is an option. You also know that DF's also can be evaded. It's not fail safe and 50 thrust makes you more of a one trick pony than what the shield specline does.

Waiting for an evade takes time... All of which you can spend doing more damage as you are specced higher in melee. Wasting all that time and endurance standing there, spamming slam which misses is much worse than waiting for an evade.

Originally posted by Tranquil-

You can miss alot with archery yes, but it's also possible to run through the assassin after a slam and shoot them in the back while at the same time get a chance to flee if the purge it.

But you don't get the option to flee if they purge Dragonfang. Considering you have purge aswell though.

If they purge the stun, you will get no more oportunity to run with a slam stun over a dragonfang stun. I don't see how you come to this conclusion.

Originally posted by Tranquil-

The spec you gave doesn't add up with points.

It does with autotrain - level up on melee.

Originally posted by Tranquil-
68 total thrust wouldn't enable a scout to outmelee an equal RR assassin though. And shieldspec/higher Longbow would give you more utility in the direction Mythic wants scouts aswell. You are correct that weaponskill is important though.

50 spec thrust will give you a MUCH better chance of outmeleeing an assassin than ~30 slash ever will. I'm not saying it's going to completely own them every time, but it's how I'd spec a Scout if I was masochistic enough to roll one.

Originally posted by Tranquil-

It IS possible. If you just go out of combatmode and put on the weapon you will barely notice a delay if you have no lag.

There's a 10 second combat timer on applying poison to a weapon, exactly the same as the restealth timer. In order to reapply poisons you need to grab weapons from your backpack, equip them, and then continue. Then you have to go through the hassle of applying poisons to all of those weapons again after your fights, which is far too tedious to actually do in practice.

The most I do nowadays is carry 2 extra weapons (one with snare, one with debuff) just in case, but it's been months since I actually used them.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

also poisons in your backpack dissapear from your weapon when you zone.

i used to bring 5-6 weapons with poison on to Emain, but with SC it became too expensive, with the 1.54 patch, it became annoying to have to reapply 8 poisons everytime i zone

 

[Freppe^^]

My advice to you skile is to roll an INFIL .