Christians and evolution

[Xplo]

A bit off topic but..

If we look at Nitche's theory, evolution goes on forever..
So we evolved from the primates -> human, but in the future human kind will evolve in an über human.
By über humans he means that people wont need rules or boundairies to be nice and good to other people, but just do it out of themselves. Some of those capabilities allready exist in us today.

 

[Chesnox]

The Big Bang has more do with ego's than science, they keep finding stuff to agree with the theory but also brush every single bit of opposing data under the carpet.

Hubble kinda nailed the Big Bang when he observed (not theorised or postualted) that distant galaxies were moving away from us, and the further away they were, the faster they moved. That must mean that there was a Big Bang. The devil is in the detail, and because scientists can really describe with any detail what the Big Bang was and why it was, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

I really don't get the rest of your point, the kind of scientists you berate aren't generally working in fields such as cosmology, since it isn't particularly profitable. The fame and fortune motivated scientists will generally work in more lucrative fields, e.g. proving how bloody awful/fantastically beneficial GM crops, weapons research etc... Since its these gigs that are generally funded by big business/governments. There isn't a whole lot of funding for cosmology in the big picture.

 

[Lumikki]

Read the Hitch-hickers Guide to the Galaxy (The five part trilogy!) that's all you need to know about anything.

And by the way, I'm a "believer".

 

[Sun_Tzu]

As much as I despise blind belief, the evolution theory is just that, a theory ,yet to be proven.
History is littered with theories that at the time were seen as abseloute undeniable fact, only to be shown as total bunkum years later.

I'll add 2 present favourites to that list, Black holes and the Big Bang theory, soon to be proven to be bollacks, mark my words.

1950's military maps of Mars still had canals on them, it was established fact until the first probe got there that there were intelligently built waterways all over the surface, they were gutted when they found an empty rock.

Theory != Guess. Its not like Darwin just threw out an idea 150 years ago, and everyone then said "Sure, why the hell not!" and assumed it was true. Scientists do testing, and experimentation in an attempt to find out how things got to where they are. Science rejects absolute truth in favor of flexibility, which is why evolution isnt 'fact'. However, its as much proven as Germ Theory, Cell Theory, and even the Theory of Gravity - and I'm sure your healthy firmly-stuck-to-ground body agrees with those 'Theories'?

Black holes and the Big bang theory agree with current evidence. If you have another explanation for X-ray sources and heavy gravitational forces (for black holes) and cosmic background radiation and doppler shift of distant galaxies(for the Big Bang theory), I'm sure you can win a Nobel prize.

 

[Sun_Tzu]

If god didnt create the world who did? The aliens? Who created them? You see, like anything in life, there has to be a definitive beginning and end. I dont know much about the "big bang" theory, but as for as I can gather it something about gases combining? I honestly dont know and cba googling it. However, if it as about gases, where did they come from? Where is the start of life? DOnt flame me, im genuinly interested!

The truthful answer is we honestly don't know. As you get closer to the big bang in time, the laws of physics that we know and love don't work anymore, so it makes explaining what came before the big bang not that easy. The key thing that you really realize about the big bang is that it wasn't really an explosion , it was anexpansion of space. Its more like blowing up a balloon than setting off a stick of dynamite. Anyway, the theory is supported by a very simple observation:

Everything is expanding (aka, doppler shift). Stuff thats very far away from us is getting even farther away - we see this as a shift of the colors of the starlight and other forms of radiation (xrays, etc). This is relatively easy to observe and makes sense. Hubble figured that if you went forward in time and stuff was getting further away, then if you went back in time it'd be getting closer together, eventually causing all the matter in the universe to be located at one point. Ta-da. Its supported by a bit more evidence than this, cosmic background radiation and all, but you get the idea.

 

[Pippic]

i belive in:
everything is relative
god is bollocks
zlatan is better then rooney
we sent the retarded ppl to america by boat a long time ago
and as conch said death = game over or maybe bluescreen

wheres seearia btw? she usually pops up in every thread like this and tries to shuv her beliefs down ppls throat

 

[Job]

Of course we are arguing what they are arguing, but there are many, many holes in the data and the theories, that's why they had to invent 'dark matter' to explain why they Universe isn't as heavy as it should be, that's not actually a hole, more of a gaping chasm.

Now the search is for dark matter, a hidden totally undectable 'stuff' that must be there for their theory to work.

Which is a bit like claiming the existance of God to explain life on the planet.

Bcak in the whatevers they didnt know how planets hung in space, so they presumed that giant crystal spheres held them there, this theory took hold and became established fact without an ounce of actual evidence.

When someone suggested travelling o the planets, everyone laughed
"You'll smash the spheres!!!"

What I'm saying is that to this day many 'facts' are based on totally unproven presumptions, they just seem to fit so well they 'must' be right.

Until some one actually has a proper look.

 

[Marc]

all you non believers are going to burn in hell!!! While I will be havin a game of "cuppies" with St Pete with the pearly gates as goal posts

 

[Morchaoron]

all you non believers are going to burn in hell!!! While I will be havin a game of "cuppies" with St Pete with the pearly gates as goal posts

that saint pete must be a awful busy man considering the amount of people that die each day :/


oh and, people are always thinking about what happens when you die, but i almost never hear someone talking about where you were before you were born, technically you are 'dead' before and after your life

 

[Taen]

Human Beings percieve the world in a linear way i.e there is a beginning and an end to everything. This is mainly due to the fact that we have finite lives i.e we are born and then we die. It is impossible to comprehend the existance of the universe in a linear way. Science can take you back so far e.g the big bang, the big crush etc. but it will never be able to take us beyond. The simple reason for this is that our brains are unable to process the concept of eternity with a relevant degree of understanding. This is due to the fact that our understanding is linked directly to the nature of our lives i.e that we are born and we die, a linear form of existence.

I dont believe in having blind faith in something. We have minds and intellects in order to form some kind of comprehension of our lives. I think its unbelievable that a large section of people think that our lives are meaningless and its lights out when you die. If people stopped for one second and took a look at the intricacy and beauty of the world around us they might reconsider the fact that this life we lead is more than some big coincidence of random events. It is astonishing that the one experience that no human being has ever experienced is the experience that a lot of people presume will greet us when we die. The experience I am talking about is the absence of all experience i.e that there is nothing when we die. Of all the infinite possibilities that death could bring people choose to believe in the one possibillty that is farthest from what we are. What have people got to lose by believing in something .. and Im not talking about some kind of religious belief .. Im just talking about the fact that we dont know .. that we probably never will know and it all seems to be just a little too crazy for their to be nothing at the end of it

Its unusual that people are so split. We have religious people who believe there is more to life than science but most of the time are too lazy to examine what they really believe by using their intellects. On the other side we got people who are obsessed with evidence and and cant get their heads around the fact that there might be more to life and the universe than what you read in a science book.

 

[Conchabar]

If people stopped for one second and took a look at the intricacy and beauty of the world around us they might reconsider the fact that this life we lead is more than some big coincidence of random events.

beauty of the world hmm im sorry i just dont see it maybe im being naive... but seeing all the greed and corruption in this world doesnt seem to strike me as beautiful im of the oppinion that the human race is just a waste of space we are a plague but then thats just me =)

 

[Buffer]

History is littered with theories that at the time were seen as abseloute undeniable fact, only to be shown as total bunkum years later.

A theory is exactly that, a theory not a fact. Its a set of rules/laws that are given to an event based on observation. A theory is tested everytime the event is observed. If for some reason the observation does not match the results expected from the theory, the theory is either than ditched and a new theory created, or the original theory is modified to account for the discrepancy. "Theory" does not equal "Fact".

A classic example of what you are saying is the "Theory" that the Sun orbited the Earth, as was believed in the 15-16 hundreds. This "Fact" was not based on scientific observation but on religious dogma of the time. If any scientist disagreed with this "Fact" they faced excommunication. Interesting that this "Fact" was propagated by a major religion of the time, without any proof except the belief that God created the universe with the Earth at its centre. Now we are being asked to believe that the Bible is how it all really happened?

While blind faith maybe acceptable to some, I for one prefer some theory or evidence. However each to their own.

 

[Wij]

Do a search. We've covered this topic before. I seem to remember linking some great creationism-debunk pages where the creationists were allowed to reply as often as they liked until they got fed up of dealing with facts and evidence and fucked off.

 

[Coren]

Evolution is a theory which can't exactly be proven, as said above. However you can measure the merits of a theory based on how well it explains observations you can make, and from that point of view Darwinian evolution looks pretty good.

A few other things in this thread:

Humans evolving into something else: Unlikely in the present state of affairs, in my opinion, due to improving medical care meaning that people rarely die before they are able to reproduce, a trend which is set to continue for the forseeable future. This means that there are very few characteristics which give a distinct (dis)advantage to one human's ability to reach reproductive age compared to another.

Evolving from aliens: Not as crazy as it sounds, there are reasonably convincing (i.e. as convincing as anything else) theories (that word again...) which suggest that life on Earth could have evolved from primitive microorganisms, originally borne on comets or such like.

And...I think it's amazing what astronomers can deduce from the kind of evidence they get. Must be an interesting thing to do, if you have a brain the size of a bus.

 

[Sardine]

We all came from lots of little particles which just so happend to merge purely by accident with some atoms and began to make some gasses which after time formed into solid particles to form the earth we live on...........sure

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Can't wait till they find microorganisms on Europa (Jupiter's moon)

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1993/biology/bio039.htm

 

[Taen]

beauty of the world hmm im sorry i just dont see it maybe im being naive... but seeing all the greed and corruption in this world doesnt seem to strike me as beautiful im of the oppinion that the human race is just a waste of space we are a plague but then thats just me =)

Interesting that you presume what i meant by the world is the human species. Ever heard of necessary evil? We all (I presume) have free will. In order to be truely free we have to have the ability to make morally right and wrong decisions. Would there be any such thing as a good act if there was no such thing as a bad act. There is plenty of good in world .. unfortunately bad news gets a lot more coverage than good news ... it doesnt mean that there isnt any good in the world.

 

[Otep]

Religion = Thing to believe in for weak minds, with no toleracion for scientific teories... Sry, but my granddies is ubbah "believers" but my grandma got cancer(got it deleted tho' with "kemoterapi") and grandpa' is back at 8year's in the head.. What a good gift from god idd say... yay...

And as the bible say: God love all, even the non believers.. <- What is this good for? He dont love _ALL_ enough it seems, or maybe hes just anti niggah with the major nr. of starving african's around...

Plz, oh plz lord enlighten me... (kom glad) or "believers in here" tell me why people have to starve/die/get murdered etc"...

ps: Adam/eva story is crap, use your brainz, I might have lost me somewere in the bible.. (i was in sondayscool for 4years, so yeah i know the bibble, but some years ago i read it over and over...)

 

[Painbringer]

proof that aliens exist, good ol' Patrick Moore :worthy:

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/20/

 

[Sardine]

@ Otep

The reason why people get killed everyday is something to do with freewill we was not made and programmed like robots to be good etc etc, but was given a choice. If we were all programmed like robots not to kill etc, how boring would life be....everyone being and acting the same as you

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

It is however a theory based on facts, unlike pretty much all the stuff in the Bible.

it's based on "qualified guessing" and hardly facts.

everything is about believeing, wether it's a religion or a theory.
so my reply to you is: How can ppl believe in a theory by Darwin based on guessing and laugh about ppl believing a book that's thousands of years old.

i believe i am to die sometime not too long from now, and i want to have a good time before i crawl in and die.
do we really need to know more?

i don't deny god, but i'm not "sure" he's there either.
i really don't feel a need to know wether he is or not, if he's there he know's what i think and if he's fiction i havent lost anything by giving "him" a thought once in a while and the odd prayer when i feel like it.

everyone more or less seek happiness, those who feel they need religion one way or the other to survive usually has some other issues that trigger that need.
(recovered drug addicts, alchoholics, nerve wrecks or ppl with low self esteem)
the rest don't care or believes for no apparent reason (or don't believe ofc)

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Theory or guess?

I first want to say that
scientists have a very special meaning for the word "proof." In fact, it is
so difficult to "prove" a scientific theory that I can honestly say that there
are NO pieces of scientific knowledge that have actually been "proved."
Scientists come up with a theory, and then they test it in as many ways as
they can, looking for evidence or information which will either prove the
theory to be impossible, or maybe verify some of the theory's predictions, or
change the theory a little. Most theories start out because someone has done
a lot of experiments, or a lot of studies, to look at something, and then they
make a general guess as to how that thing works. This is called a "theory" in
science. However, if we guess how things are based on what someone else tells
us, or based on what we read, that is not a "theory" to a scientist but a "guess".

 

[Stoned Viking]

I don't believe in god but I dont't hate people who do. Have a lot of respect for religion as, wether you like it or not, it is the main reason behind near all of mankinds laws of what is right and wrong when it comes to how we treat eachoter. Some may be better than others but thats down to each individual to deside.

If there really is a god I know where ill be going

 

[SigvartH]

maybe we were created by aliens!!

sounds alot more believable then the god theory anyway...

In Mesopotamian religion the gods are in some cases portrayed as very tall people who came from the celestial heaven (space) from a planet the mesopotamians knew abouth 4000 BC. And whom Nasa discoverd in 2002. and named it Quaoar behind Pluto and .

Also all the original stories of eksampel Noa and the arkh, the flood myth etc. Come from ancient mesopotamian, akkadian and sumerian sources.

So 1 should not ignore any source of information, be it religious or not. Besides that is what compelles mankind. The continous search and exploration.

 

[oblimov]

just because one religion/group says something that you dont believe in means that they are idiots or arseholes

everyone is free to their own opinions and if they want to impose those opinions on their children etc then it is their right as a parent

The only thing im against is people trying to enforce their beliefs on other adults, which is exactly what your trying to do with this post tbh

 

[harebear]

I don't believe in god but I dont't hate people who do. Have a lot of respect for religion as, wether you like it or not, it is the main reason behind near all of mankinds laws of what is right and wrong when it comes to how we treat eachoter. Some may be better than others but thats down to each individual to deside.

If there really is a god I know where ill be going

Religion and beliefs are also behind a hell of alot of wars and deaths. If there was only religion it would work well, but with lots of them it doesn't (imo).

 

[Hansmoleman]

just because one religion/group says something that you dont believe in means that they are idiots or arseholes

everyone is free to their own opinions and if they want to impose those opinions on their children etc then it is their right as a parent

The only thing im against is people trying to enforce their beliefs on other adults, which is exactly what your trying to do with this post tbh

personally if my parents had tried to force any religion or such on me i wouldn't believe it anymore than i do now, i dont believe in religion i just cant figure all the rubbish out in the bible etc, but i dont believe parents have the right to force anything on thier children such as religion.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

If god didnt create the world who did? The aliens? Who created them? You see, like anything in life, there has to be a definitive beginning and end. I dont know much about the "big bang" theory, but as for as I can gather it something about gases combining? I honestly dont know and cba googling it. However, if it as about gases, where did they come from? Where is the start of life? DOnt flame me, im genuinly interested!

You're touching the core of the difference between believers and non-believers. The religious kind, anyway.

People who believe the Creationist Theory (i.e. God did it all and his plans are unfanthomable), need a reason for their existance, for the world, for everything. The fact that the bible also says that you shouldn't kill your neighbour is just an added bonus.

The people who do not take to that sort of belief, the ones who accept the evolution theory, do not need a reason. It basically comes down to 'Stuff is.' People have trouble wrapping their head around reality needing a beginning and an end. 'Big bangs' if you like. The string-theory says that after each bin-bang a big-crunch follows, in which everything moves back to the point of original, starting another big-bang, ad infinitum (literally.)

Wrap your brain around this: The Big-Bangs and Big-Crunches NEVER started, and never END. Words like those have no meaning when applied to reality. It just IS.

Same thing with 'How big is the universe?', it's infinitely large and at the same time it's not. At the moment of the Big Bang, the dimensions as we know them are applied - space, time, and space gets a size. It expands fast, very fast, and is STILL expanding. It doesn't matter how far or big, as noone will ever be able to catch up with the edge anyway.. they isn't enough time, energy or speed in the universe to do so. "So, what's beyond the edge?", well.. speculatively, there isn't a 'beyond', as that is putting dimensions on a place that doesn't have them in the way we understand them.

Enough drivel.

Religion is something you believe in or not. Maybe it soothes you, but ultimately, it doesn't matter one iota one way or the other.. We live, we have fun, we die. End of story.

 

[Stoned Viking]

Religion and beliefs are also behind a hell of alot of wars and deaths. If there was only religion it would work well, but with lots of them it doesn't (imo).

Yes thats true, but without it im sure there would have been a lot more wars.
there will always be some reason to start a war, be it for territory, someone shagging with a presidents wife or just for fun.