China's First Aircraft Carrier

[cHodAX]

Status Quo? - Bollocks tbh.

Money runs the world, if the Rebels turned around and said, (Which they never will) We will buy all the weapons going to Assad, I'm sure their tune will change as it puts their self in lesser danger with the west.

It boils down to more than that bud, the rebels/nationalists do not want Russia having a permanent presence on Syrian soil, this is why the news of that port being leased long term to Russia was suppressed and kept out of the Syrian media. Assad is using the Russians to ensure his dictatorship remains in place, the trade is that naval base and Russia are more than happy to block everything in the security council to get what it wants, a compliant Syria that buys weapons and allows Russian military inside Syrian borders.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Status Quo? - Bollocks tbh.

Money runs the world, if the Rebels turned around and said, (Which they never will) We will buy all the weapons going to Assad, I'm sure their tune will change as it puts their self in lesser danger with the west.

It might but at the moment Syria is more a civil war now then an uprising. As Chodax said they have leased a port there (they had it for ages), too small for a carrier at the moment. But rather for them rather Assad then someone who will try to get the attention to Chechnya and other places

 

[Moriath]

Status Quo? - Bollocks tbh.

Money runs the world, if the Rebels turned around and said, (Which they never will) We will buy all the weapons going to Assad, I'm sure their tune will change as it puts their self in lesser danger with the west.

Oil and gas own the world money is just a consequence

 

[Chosen]

Nice post and yes you make good points, since Georgia though much of that equipment has been refitted as part of a military-wide upgrade program. The equipment itself when working is still highly effective if not technologically advanced and the one big advantage USSR/Russia had is there sheer number of tank hulls they have in service but also available to quickly put back into service.

Since the end of the cold war NATO has massively thinned out it's heavy armour reserves in central Europe thinking that the threat from the east is gone but many of those T6x, T7x and T8x tanks are still around or mothballed. Looking at wiki (so the figures may not be accurate) they have nearly 49,000 main battle tanks of which roughly 15,000 remain in service which is a huge number in itself, then count in all the other armour/artillery. Their ground forces are still scary. The airforce is being modernised nicely, the navy still needs alot of work though. All that and nukes makes them a superpower, yes they are carrier light but I expect an oil/gas rich Russia to put that right before too long.

I agree with you that they are a "threat" military wise. But as of now I wouldnt consider them a superpower! They are far from able to dominate in sea and air, where as you say the equipment is outdated compared to the americans.

Without the domination in sea/air they wont be able to "control" larger sections in the world like the Americans do now. Remember what fighting power only one Nimitz class has! I do agree when it comes to nukes, but then we would also have to consider quite a lot more countries to be "military superpowers. Take India for example, their airforce is more up-to-date then what russia currently have!

Also considering the amount of money they put into their military compared to the US.(Even thought they increased it LOTS in 2012.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

 

[Scouse]

Oil and gas own the world money is just a consequence

If that was true we'd be Saudi's bitches, but we're not - we're rich people's slaves...

 

[Hawkwind]

Right then, since they're like one of the couple of super-powers on the planet, why have they bought a Soviet one from the Ukraine? - Are they recycling or something?

This confuses me since they surely have the resources to make their own huge ones to dwarf Americas?

Trouble is they would need one in order to copy it! Technology is simple answer. It's also why they could never build an aircraft without outside help. Luckily Airbus were stupid enough to provide that, an action that may well haunt them in future years.

 

[Scouse]

an action that may well haunt them in future years.

Really?

I think they may use their new military prowess in the local area (secure some islands locally) but I simply can't see 'em tooling around the planet using carriers/planes/whatever else they've got in an agressive war.

I actually think that the Chinese defence budget is just for that - defence.

The US and UK however...

 

[DaGaffer]

Really?

I think they may use their new military prowess in the local area (secure some islands locally) but I simply can't see 'em tooling around the planet using carriers/planes/whatever else they've got in an agressive war.

I actually think that the Chinese defence budget is just for that - defence.

The US and UK however...

You've got nothing to back that assertion up. If you'd looked at the US in say...1935, you would never have them pegged as the most powerful military on Earth ten years later. China are busy hoovering up the resources of entire countries at the moment (especially in Africa and South America), and a blue water navy is really only for long range force projection (otherwise flying planes from land is much more effective).

 

[Raven]

It's also a prestige thing. A globally capable military means they are a true global power.

I doubt they have a master plan of taking over the world or anything but I do think they want to be taken (more) seriously.

 

[Scouse]

You've got nothing to back that assertion up. If you'd looked at the US in say...1935, you would never have them pegged as the most powerful military on Earth ten years later. China are busy hoovering up the resources of entire countries at the moment (especially in Africa and South America), and a blue water navy is really only for long range force projection (otherwise flying planes from land is much more effective).

You're right, and I don't disagree with any of that.

I just "feel" this:

I doubt they have a master plan of taking over the world or anything but I do think they want to be taken (more) seriously.

Also - it would seem prudent in this day and age to beef up your military as the US and UK are on a seemingly global rampage which could go who knows where?

Add to that, Islam is trying to get its grubby mindless mits on the nuclear train and if that properly happens then all bets are off.

 

[Gwadien]

Yes, I think the wanting to be taken more seriously is really the issue, I think the Middle East countries fear invasion from UK/US, not China, but I think we generally fear China, because we're told to, and because they have a unreal amount of soldiers, that's if we don't nuke them

 

[Moriath]

If that was true we'd be Saudi's bitches, but we're not - we're rich people's slaves...

Rich people are rich off the back of natural resources mostly oil and gas thats why there are so many rich people in arabian OPEC countries. Try making a computer without oil try making a car without oil .. etc etc ... rich these days depends on that resource almost entirely these days

 

[Poag]

Yes, I think the wanting to be taken more seriously is really the issue, I think the Middle East countries fear invasion from UK/US, not China, but I think we generally fear China, because we're told to, and because they have a unreal amount of soldiers, that's if we don't nuke them

China may have a massive number of soldiers. But they are all IN China. Thus they aren't an actual threat. China lacks any real amphibious landing group, certainly not one that could fight the RN, let alone the USN. The PRC Army is only a real problem to their neighbors, thus why Russia has beefed up its Eastern units in recent years. Theres plenty of space there to trade space-for-time to bring up other units, also there is a fair bit of static defenses in the area. Oddly enough, its somewhat widely considered that if China did invade Russia it would be seen as a fair threat to Euro and thus NATO would get involved, which would be seriosuly ironic! NATO defending Russia

Theres a Clancy book which plays out this scenario "The Bear and the Dragon" which is a fair read on how things might play out.




Thus at the moment they are the giant bear in the next room. Not really a problem at the moment, but when they start building ships the door starts cracking open a little.

Fortunately China is notoriously bad at building ships and the west have a concerted effort to keep them that way, thus them being sold a crud half done Russian boat with shoddy engines. They get a carrier to pootle around with the "big boys".

 

[Poag]

Rich people are rich off the back of natural resources mostly oil and gas thats why there are so many rich people in arabian OPEC countries. Try making a computer without oil try making a car without oil .. etc etc ... rich these days depends on that resource almost entirely these days

Interestingly enough. Most OPEC countries are painfully aware that when the oil runs out they will be effectively destitute. Their entire country economy is built around producing oil, once it runs out they dont have anything.

Some of the governments are trying to deal with this buy using oil money to buy large amounts of land and property world wide to act as a governmental income source. While at the same time building up financial markets at home in commodities and energy bartering. So that when the oil runs out they have something to fall back on. Also alot of alternative energy research si funded by the oil companies for the same reason...they figure they will just move from one energy source to another.

 

[cHodAX]

Africa is where China's interests lay, they need a way to protect those interests in 20 years time when some rare earth metals start to become harder to get at. Having a way to project power overseas means that everyone is alot less likely to fuck around in China's playground.

Spot on about the North East Resource Zone as well Poag.

 

[Gwadien]

That Book, surely China is the Dragon and Russia is the Bear?

I can't remember all the animals related with animals/mythical beasts, but in the 19th century, all countries used the animals for cartoons!

America was an Eagle, Britain a Lion, Japan a Crocodile, China a Dragon etc etc...

Sorry, i'm being boring.

 

[cHodAX]

Britain is still a Lion, we are just lion down for a rest.

 

[Zenith.UK]

First of all, China is the largest producer AND user of rare earth metals. These are the metals essential to electronics manufacturing such as neodymium for ceramic capacitors. Iridium is used in ITO capacitive touch screens (even though it's not a rare earth metal, it IS comparatively rare).
Cutting yourself off from China's mining and production facilities only hurts yourself in the long run.

As for carriers, I'm waiting for a major power to come up with something like this...

 

[Moriath]

Interestingly enough. Most OPEC countries are painfully aware that when the oil runs out they will be effectively destitute. Their entire country economy is built around producing oil, once it runs out they dont have anything.

Some of the governments are trying to deal with this buy using oil money to buy large amounts of land and property world wide to act as a governmental income source. While at the same time building up financial markets at home in commodities and energy bartering. So that when the oil runs out they have something to fall back on. Also alot of alternative energy research si funded by the oil companies for the same reason...they figure they will just move from one energy source to another.

for the future yes but at the moment no one has plastics or anything made without petrol chemicals without them so they are in a very good position until alternatives are found.

See how quick USA kicked iraq out of Kuwait

 

[mr.Blacky]

First of all, China is the largest producer AND user of rare earth metals. These are the metals essential to electronics manufacturing such as neodymium for ceramic capacitors. Iridium is used in ITO capacitive touch screens (even though it's not a rare earth metal, it IS comparatively rare).
Cutting yourself off from China's mining and production facilities only hurts yourself in the long run.

China just captured the market of the Rare Earth stuff, because they were cheaper a lot of the mines closed down. Already Australia is building up their share of the market and the alternative products are being used/developed more.

 

[cHodAX]

First of all, China is the largest producer AND user of rare earth metals. These are the metals essential to electronics manufacturing such as neodymium for ceramic capacitors. Iridium is used in ITO capacitive touch screens (even though it's not a rare earth metal, it IS comparatively rare).
Cutting yourself off from China's mining and production facilities only hurts yourself in the long run.

As for carriers, I'm waiting for a major power to come up with something like this...

Far far bigger untaped reserves in South America and Africa mate, China's reserves will be uneconomical to mine within 20-30 at the current rate of extraction. This is why they are building massive road, rail and port infrastructure on both continents. They know they can't seize Siberia any time soon, they have zero chance of taking Afghanistan and it's vast mineral deposits so they will slowly buy their way in as they are doing elsewhere.

 

[Bahumat]

Please delete my post.

 

[DaGaffer]

Problem the Russians have is that 20 years from now there will be barely anyone left to defend Siberia. Russia is in serious population decline (like a 0.8 birthrate or something like that), and if you ever go to Siberia you'll see town after town that have barely anyone left in them (just old people, all the young ones have fucked off to Moscow, St. Petersburg or abroad). The Chinese will be able to walk right in.

 

[Zarjazz]

Why would anyone want Siberia anyway? Does it have some huge mineral / gas / oil / unobtanium deposits or something?

 

[DaGaffer]

Why would anyone want Siberia anyway? Does it have some huge mineral / gas / oil / unobtanium deposits or something?

Siberia is extraordinarily rich in minerals, containing ores of almost all economically valuable metals—largely because of the absence of Quaternary glaciation outside highland areas. It has some of the world's largest deposits of nickel, gold, lead, coal, molybdenum, gypsum, diamonds, diopside, silver and zinc, as well as extensive unexploited resources of oil and natural gas[35]. The Khanty-Mansiysk region is home to 70% of Russia's developed oil fields.[36] Russia contains about 40% of the world's known resources of nickel at the Norilsk deposit in Siberia. Norilsk Nickel is the world's biggest nickel and palladium producer

 

[Zarjazz]

So that would be a no then.

 

[Gwadien]

I played Uthgard with around 5 Russians I think it was, this was just before the Russian Presidental Election, we got talking about it, and it turned out they were pretty open for who they voted for, one guy voted for a socialist, one guy loved putin, so voted for him, 3 guys hated Putin, but voted for Putin, my response was Why? - Because he will defend Russia from any enemies - that was their reponse.. (I even think one of the Russian guys goes on this forum still.)

Historically, in terms of Military - Britain and Russia had a very strong and useful alliance due to the harsh climate and sheer scale of land in Russia, and the Channel for the UK - Meaning we've defended Europe on numerous accounts - WW1(ish) , 2, and against Napoleon. With China, if anything does kick off, I can see Japan and Russia allying (Although they have a very bad history with each other) which would pretty much mean a UK in the East.

 

[Poag]

So that would be a no then.

That would be "yes everyone wants it, but its extremely hard to get the stuff out of".
Same for Greenland. Massive oil/gas reserves...but at the moment with current tech its ridiculously hard to get at the stuff.

 

[Hawkwind]

Really?

Giving the Chinese such technology will backfire on them. Airbus did it to secure orders in the short term. The Chinese are now developing their own passenger aircraft using that knowledge and will directly compete with Airbus/Boeing. Right now its only a relatively small commuter aircraft but their ambitions are to compete on all types. Given the labour rates they might well succeed. Just give it another 20-30 years.

 

[Job]

Are we forgetting India here?
Bombay is headed for a 30 million population, they are every bit a match for the Chinese.