Question change of beliefs

noblok

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It's a simple fact, that's what makes it non-lololol. There are no non-selfish acts because of human nature alone, BUT i'm open to hearing any example where that doesn't ring true.

Meh. I do those things a lot (and I guess so do other people). Keeping a door open for a stranger, helping my mom with the dishes/groceries, helping someone with a pram up a flight of stairs, giving money to charity etc. None of these are done so I would feel good about myself, but simply because they ask me, need help or it's the right thing to do.
 

noblok

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I knew that. Think I wanted to react to fl3a first and then saw toht's post and decided that was a better quote :).
 

Bahumat

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Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life."
 

old.Tohtori

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Meh. I do those things a lot (and I guess so do other people). Keeping a door open for a stranger, helping my mom with the dishes/groceries, helping someone with a pram up a flight of stairs, giving money to charity etc. None of these are done so I would feel good about myself, but simply because they ask me, need help or it's the right thing to do.

Same answer goes for Calaen;

You do it because it's right? Then you're doing it to avoid doing the wrong thing. Wrong things lead to regret etc.

You do it to help someone? If you didn't, you'd feel less of yourself.

Even by making someone else feel good, you are being selfish as it avoids you knowing that other person feels bad, which would hurt you.

Only non selfish act is something no-one else knows about(so they don't think more of you) and which brings harm to yourself.

Then again, telling any such event here would mean you do it to prove yourself right ;)

It's not a blame, it's not a judgment, it's a simple fact on how things work.
 

noblok

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You do it to help someone? If you didn't, you'd feel less of yourself.
Perhaps, I'm not too sure about that, but even if that were true, it doesn't change anything. Not wanting to feel bad about myself is not the reason why I help other people. I do it to help the other person, not because otherwise I'd feel bad about myself. Not feeling bad about myself is a side-effect, not the motivation.
 

Calaen

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Same answer goes for Calaen;

You do it because it's right? Then you're doing it to avoid doing the wrong thing. Wrong things lead to regret etc.

It's pointless, by definition I am not selfish, yet by your examples everything I do or don't do is selfish because I do or don't is based on what I get from it.

Personally I think that's a pile of shit. Perhaps if I sat all day, thinking over my actions, and changing my actions to suit myself I would agree with you. But I don't so I disagree.
 

old.Tohtori

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Although i agree with toht to some extent, hes approaching this completly wrong. He is assuming he knows why you do something, what he can do is explain how he sees it because this is merely a filosophical theses.

Actually i don't, i never claimed actions are thought out.

Much like a person goes out running, not because it's a thought out process, but because it makes him feel good etc.

Parental(or such) programming tells us "this is good", that leads to a subconcious "this is bad" thought and we avoid things that make us feel bad.

Ergo, every act is selfish, but if Calaen wants to think he's on some higher ground then the human race, he can go on doing it.

MAkes him feel better afterall :D
 

Huntingtons

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my point exactly (I deleted so i could explain better) YOU ASSUME YOU KNOW THIS TO BE A FACT.

and this is why dont discuss with you. a fucking waste of time.
 

noblok

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Actually i don't, i never claimed actions are thought out.

Much like a person goes out running, not because it's a thought out process, but because it makes him feel good etc.

Parental(or such) programming tells us "this is good", that leads to a subconcious "this is bad" thought and we avoid things that make us feel bad.

Ergo, every act is selfish, but if Calaen wants to think he's on some higher ground then the human race, he can go on doing it.

MAkes him feel better afterall :D
Yeah. The unconscious. I could just as well claim that when you steal someone's wallet you're doing that because at an unconscious level you don't want them to buy cigarettes with said money and you care for their health. And you can't prove me wrong, because the unconscious level can't be accessed by definition.

Ergo: any reasoning which claims to be true even when everything (introspection, behaviour) points in a different direction, purely because it appeals to the unconscious is, bogus.
 

old.Tohtori

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my point exactly (I deleted so i could explain better) YOU ASSUME YOU KNOW THIS TO BE A FACT.

and this is why dont discuss with you. a fucking waste of time.

Yeah, let's go with that. Whatever makes you feel better :p

Funny how you can say i think something, while blaming that on me in one line.

Yeah. The unconscious. I could just as well claim that when you steal someone's wallet you're doing that because at an unconscious level you don't want them to buy cigarettes with said money and you care for their health. And you can't prove me wrong, because the unconscious level can't be accessed by definition.

Actually to say it better; if you don't think about doing good things and still do, it's a subconcious act to do good things.

People don't do things without reason, there's always a reason. Be it education, way of thought or whatever and all those come back to feeling good, avoiding bad feelings and so on.

Still haven't seen one example here of a selfless act. A lot of these "answers" don't even discuss it, just pick one part "unconsious" or one line and focus on that.
 

noblok

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Actually to say it better; if you don't about doing good things and still do, it's a subconcious act to do good things.

People don't do things without reason, there's always a reason. Be it education, way of thought or whatever and all those come back to feeling good, avoiding bad feelings and so on.

Still haven't seen one example here of a selfless act. A lot of these "answers" don't even discuss it, just pick one part "unconsious" or one line and focus on that.
I've given you plenty of examples in my original post. You just claimed that the real reason why I did them was selfish. There is indeed a reason why I do these acts: I want to help others, I don't do them in order to feel good.

The unconscious part is crucial, because your entire argument rests on that part alone. I claim to do acts to help others and this is supported both by introspection and an objective analysis of my behaviour (even when there is no discernible advantage, I'll still help). You claim that at an unconscious level it's because otherwise I'd feel bad. That's a pretty weak argument.
 

old.Tohtori

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I've given you plenty of examples in my original post. You just claimed that the real reason why I did them was selfish. There is indeed a reason why I do these acts: I want to help others, I don't do them in order to feel good.

The unconscious part is crucial, because your entire argument rests on that part alone. I claim to do acts to help others and this is supported both by introspection and an objective analysis of my behaviour (even when there is no discernible advantage, I'll still help). You claim that at an unconscious level it's because otherwise I'd feel bad. That's a pretty weak argument.

I didn't blame you on being selfish, i'm saying all things are. There's a clear difference and you're taking it WAY too personally.

The difference here is that you base my word selfish with your own definition where there are selfish and non-selfish acts. In my definition of it, there is no blame or accusation involved in the unconcious acts.

Again; the selfish part is not an accusation of being a bad person.

You defending it with such zeal would beg the question; why?

Why is the idea of every act being selfish at some level, so wrong?

I claim that you'd feel bad, but you can say i'm wrong in that.

Example; if your mother asked you to do the dishes and you said "no", would you feel bad about it? Would there be guilt?

If you don't know, try it sometime and then tell me i'm wrong.

If you're completely undifferent to actions being good or bad, what makes you do good things?

..
OT:Funny thing about this discussion(with you noblok, Calaen just can't accept anything i say :p), is that i'm questioning your belief, which is exactly what tris- was talking about :D
 

noblok

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I didn't blame you on being selfish, i'm saying all things are. There's a clear difference and you're taking it WAY too personally.

The difference here is that you base my word selfish with your own definition where there are selfish and non-selfish acts. In my definition of it, there is no blame or accusation involved in the unconcious acts.

Again; the selfish part is not an accusation of being a bad person.

I know that. I don't feel offended because of the fact that you're calling me selfish. If I react strongly it's because you claim to know my motivations better than I do myself without even having met me.

You defending it with such zeal would beg the question; why?
Because I think it's a very common misconception and I'm fond of the truth. I also find the subject interesting.

Why is the idea of every act being selfish at some level, so wrong?
Because it is untrue.

I claim that you'd feel bad, but you can say i'm wrong in that.
In that case, I'll just say it: you're wrong :p. If I don't hold the door open for someone I don't feel bad. Yet most of the time I hold the door open, just to be nice.

And even if I would feel guilty that doesn't change the matter (there are some cases where I act altruistically in which I would feel guilty if I didn't). If I help a friend of mine with a job he needs done, it's because I want to help him, not because I'd feel guilty otherwise.

If you're completely undifferent to actions being good or bad, what makes you do good things?
I'm not indifferent to actions being good or bad. I want to do good things, because they ought to be done. I don't want to do good things because they make me feel good, but because it's what they ask of me.
 

Calaen

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Ergo, every act is selfish, but if Calaen wants to think he's on some higher ground then the human race, he can go on doing it.

If I eat an apple it's not selfish, if I took an apple from someone else because I did not want them to have it and then threw it away that would be selfish.

Hurry up make an apology post, so you can fawn over yourself for an hour or two.
 

Dahakon

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One thing that nobody seems to have mentioned here is the empathy, I don't think that being empathetic to someone who needs help is by it's nature selfish. You might feel better afterwords, but that's not the reason why you help them, you help them because of empathy, which I don't think is a selfish emotion, although I'm sure if could be spun to sound like it is. :p
 

mooSe_

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One thing that nobody seems to have mentioned here is the empathy, I don't think that being empathetic to someone who needs help is by it's nature selfish. You might feel better afterwords, but that's not the reason why you help them, you help them because of empathy, which I don't think is a selfish emotion, although I'm sure if could be spun to sound like it is. :p

I did mention empathy, but then I deleted the post:(
 

Raven

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It depends entirely how you define selfish.

Wikipedia states "Selfishness denotes the precedence given in thought or deed to the self, i.e., self interest or self concern. It is the act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others."
Selfishness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A random online dictionary has it as "1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others"
selfish - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

I wouldn't say everything I do for myself is selfish...
 

old.Tohtori

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I know that. I don't feel offended because of the fact that you're calling me selfish. If I react strongly it's because you claim to know my motivations better than I do myself without even having met me.

Again, i'm not claiming you to be selfish, i'm claiming all actions as such, the whole world, not just you.

I don't claim to know your motivations, i claim to know that all actions of good nature have benefits.

Because I think it's a very common misconception and I'm fond of the truth. I also find the subject interesting.

Didn't ask that, asked why you do good things.

Because it is untrue.

How? Are there actions that don't give you ANY benefits, no matter how insicnificant?

In that case, I'll just say it: you're wrong :p. If I don't hold the door open for someone I don't feel bad. Yet most of the time I hold the door open, just to be nice.

And even if I would feel guilty that doesn't change the matter (there are some cases where I act altruistically in which I would feel guilty if I didn't). If I help a friend of mine with a job he needs done, it's because I want to help him, not because I'd feel guilty otherwise.

And if you do that, you do it to be friendly, to help, it makes them feel better and it avoids feeling bad for not helping.

Being nice is not an unselfish reason, being nice pants a better picture of you. It derives from the "do on to others", doing things you think are right not WRONG. In such, you won't feel that you're in the wrong.

I'm not indifferent to actions being good or bad. I want to do good things, because they ought to be done. I don't want to do good things because they make me feel good, but because it's what they ask of me.

Here we come back to it; doing the right thing means you're not doing the wrong thing, you feel better of yourself for being a nice person, a good person. If you didn't strive to be a nice person, you wouldn't bother with doing nice things, right?

We can't really agee on this as we have a different view on the simple basis of the discussion; namely the word "selfish".
 

old.Tohtori

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Noticed that i do too much of "you do" when i mean "do you" :eek7:

Can apologise for doing that, completely my fault.

Should really question things more and not ask them as statements.
 

Calaen

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Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
 

old.Tohtori

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Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Hmm?

If you're meaning my apology, it's not towards what i said to you, it's towards those individuals who know how to discuss things in a civil manner and who would benefit in me explaining my position and the way i write things.

ou're worse then i am, atleast i know how i can be wrong.
 

Calaen

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Your confusing things and we're going round in circles.

See what Raven and Dahakon posted, both relevant posts in this thread.

I am sure Noblok feels safe now, knowing that someone knows them better than themselves.

As for discussing things in a civil manner, I'll assume you are not including yourself in that category!
 

noblok

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Again, i'm not claiming you to be selfish, i'm claiming all actions as such, the whole world, not just you.
But if every action in the whole world is selfish, then so are mine. So you are saying that I'm selfish, but it's not a reproach as it's a natural law, according to you.


I don't claim to know your motivations, i claim to know that all actions of good nature have benefits.
But being selfish and being altruistic are situated exactly at the level of motivation. If I grab a lot of money which belongs to someone else by a spastic movement of my arm that isn't a selfish action, because there was no intention of doing it for my own good. The same goes for altruism: if I take a bullet for someone else because of a twitch in my leg, that's no altruistic act.


How? Are there actions that don't give you ANY benefits, no matter how insicnificant?
As I said: perhaps not, but that doesn't matter, because at the level of the motivation/intention these benefits don't always play a role.


Here we come back to it; doing the right thing means you're not doing the wrong thing, you feel better of yourself for being a nice person, a good person. If you didn't strive to be a nice person, you wouldn't bother with doing nice things, right?
Of course I strive to be a good person, but not because it makes me feel good about myself. Good things demand to be done, simply because they're good. If I know something is right, I can impossibly not do it, because if I understand it to be right I also understand I ought to do it. How I would feel for (not) doing it doesn't matter. It needs to be done and that's the end of that.
 

old.Tohtori

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noblok, thanks for the repl, i see that it's well put, but i'm a bit "off-thought" now so i'll try to answer it tomorrow.

Aka; i'm drunk, answer you later :D
 

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