Camouflage explained

[old.Odysseus]

Yes, a scout could certainly do stupid amounts of damage, even after numerous damage, miss, bt, pbt, fumble nerfs.

Why?
Because those that were noticed used buffbots. All those enourmous rp-harvesters out there that killed everyone in a few shots were buffed.
So remove buffbots and u get us on a realistic level. Still overpowered though, sure.

Mind you, scouts could not just go pick anyone from a group (if not buffed) and kill him. A green con bard or cloth caster was possible to take out and get away with relative safety.

Most classes we got the drop on we could take out (but then again, ALL classes that get the drop on us can take us out).

Yes, a nerf was neded. a NERF, not a redefinition of the class. What was once a solo class is now forced to use buffbots and minstrel partners OR group.
Those of us that cant be arsed to level (and pay for) a buffbot....?

And as far as reading about the class in the manual - LOL. Info about your char (for me it was) is gained partly by looking at rp-ranking, looking at abilities, and based on those abilities imagine how to use them.
Altering those abilities radically undermines that line of thought.

Long answer, short version:
a) archers needed a nerf
b) not a redefinition of the class
c) give me a reclass, not a useless respec

 

[tdmm-principe]

Thanks for the explanation Censi, i think 10 mins is a long long time to survive the infils/SB that round emain but better than nothing it is.

We are a bit gimped at RvR atm with 10 infils moving around amg we cant survive for 10 mins if u arent behind a tree like a non stealthed class.

 

[hotrat]

If you can get a spell off:
If your a theurg all you have to do is insta stun your target and set pet...

If your a sorc all you have to do is mezz your target...

Fire Wiz stun kill..

cabby stun set pet....
etc....
etc....
every mage class has the tools to fight back....

I love the way censi thinks all alb mages get baseline stun, we only get root and that don't do shit against snipers, they can still shoot they can still stealth.
cabbie would use nearsight, sorc would mezz yes, theurg might mezz but dont forget only 1250 and its ae so u gotta be careful of nearby mobs, fire wizz.. hmm... QC bolt?

All 3 hib casters have got stun so they can just use that or if out of range run. Runemaster *should* have nearsight, its in the pbt line and spiritmaster gets a single target mezz in their pbae line.


Also @ Finster and Nol. Yes maybe Anarki and Alpha both still kill lots of ppl, oh wait they both have buff bots so no wonder they do well.
A two hand slash (weak against chain) using sb vs a slash (good against leather) using minstrel will be a close fight if neither are buffed. In fact i would put my money on minstrel if they got their insta stun in before cd, then mezzed rested and then killed.

Lots of people saying how snipers were overpowered, not many saying that minstrel's were and it seems buffbots are the main cause of this overpowered viewpoint.
Nolbypride PK hunter could kill all mages easily cus he had such a quick draw time and killed you before you could QC mezz him. The current Alpha can solo heroes who use IP and moose, does this not tell you something about the power of buffs?

 

[Jimli]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus


Thats what i made my char for. My char was a Mruberfuckingkillingmachinearcherwhocantbedetected when i created it. I went through hell to get it to 50.

And what made it so uber was that i could stealth right in front of everyones nose, meaning i could pick lowcons out of a group with no risk.

A little tour on the internet through the history of mmorpg's would have told you you would get nerfed.

Really can't feel any pity for the ex-uberguys. Just hope you dont let the frustration of being nerfed ruin the memory of fun you had.

 

[old.Odysseus]

My first mmorpg - so i was but a naive customer paying to get fucked up.
Now im no longer naive, just fucked up.

Actually I knew archers would be nerfed, however removing soloing from the game was not part of my expectations when the game in itself has so much of it.
Why make stealth if u dont want ppl to solo?
Why make classes that cant group if u dont want solo?
etc etc.

conclusion:
poorly considered gamerules being patched by random and radical means.

 

[Jimli]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus
My first mmorpg - so i was but a naive customer paying to get fucked up.
Now im no longer naive, just fucked up.

Actually I knew archers would be nerfed, however removing soloing from the game was not part of my expectations when the game in itself has so much of it.
Why make stealth if u dont want ppl to solo?
Why make classes that cant group if u dont want solo?
etc etc.

conclusion:
poorly considered gamerules being patched by random and radical means.

I think Mythic had the dream of large scale battles with scout reporting troup movements. And large scale medieval tactics like the Hammer and Anvil or just plain setting up position on an opposing hill site with archers behind the tanks and catapults to bomb the enemy while they made a massive charge. Assasins sneaking trough the ranks to kill the healers and the casters. You get the picture if you've seen Braveheart.

Would be cool to go 500 to 500 if they ever get that fecking lag out of the game.

 

[old.Odysseus]

my dream too - but one thing is to dream, another thing is to consider details - putting invisibility and firepower in the same char can lead to ONE thing; snipers.
Shouldnt take too much brainactivity to figure that one out.

Braveheart ... MAN the're some nice battles in that movie!

 

[old.Akirai]

Scouts need a speed getaway buff like hunters and rangers, then i'll be a little more happy with the char. I still play, dont moan just play....make the most fun out of my class that i possibly can.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by censi


Key to survival from an archer attack as a mage is to make a quick decision whether the archer is close enough for you to stunn or mezz b4 you die... if he isnt close enough you have to run fast or die

If you can get a spell off:
If your a theurg all you have to do is insta stun your target and set pet...

If your a sorc all you have to do is mezz your target...

Fire Wiz stun kill..

cabby stun set pet....
etc....
etc....
every mage class has the tools to fight back....

interesting...

where is my Fire spec stun spell? is it missing from my spellbook? did someone steal that page?

and as for the theurgist insta stun - that's a new one on me...

Cabalists get stun now? wow! that one skipped the patch notes.

Please - get some believable BS first...

Oh and in the case of Scout versus Hibbie caster...

You forgot the 'run 20 paces towards the archer that's firing on you' before the quickcast stun...

Bows are range 2100, stun is range 1500 (and is still too long)

Oh and albion wizards only get root... not much use against an archer really.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus

Braveheart ... MAN the're some nice battles in that movie!

shame the battle of stirling bridge had no bridge but oh well

(that said you can re-enact it in the battlegrounds send in a small force to lure the enemy in to charging onto the bridge... whilst they're all packed together and milling around, smack em hard )

course you can't use the proper tactics of a shield wall blocking one side of the bridge - can run through it but a mezzer will do

 

[old.Odysseus]

there is NO doubt in my mind that if u compare the 3 main ranged artillery classes; runie, eld and wizzie, wizzie are underpowered.

no range stun
no pbt
no nearsight
only 1 bolt
no runspeed

but this is a scout-whine thread sooo

 

[bigtimespag]

Assasins are gimped

As an assasin class we have been feckered over slowly and surely, Mythic creating an enviroment thats better for grouping? my shiny little luri ass.
In realm assasins have to solo tons and in rvr its our job to solo too we're not meant for grouping.
If they want more grouping how about giving us something that can help groups, now that archers can camoflauge what is the point in see hidden?
This really works my two yellow nipples. Can someone tell me how assasins are worth the effort now?

Bigtimespaghetti L40 ns

 

[Jimli]

By being very annoying little buggers in the BG.


Prophecy: in 2 months BG will appear empty but as soon as a non stealther comes he will get 300 stabs in the back

But nice to see more people like the idea of big scale battle.

Think we should put the shieldwall idea to Mythic tho. Make chars unpassable in the sense that you cant run Literally through them. As midgardian im really going to love trolls then

 

[hotrat]

I think Mythic had the dream of large scale battles with scout reporting troup movements. And large scale medieval tactics like the Hammer and Anvil or just plain setting up position on an opposing hill site with archers behind the tanks and catapults to bomb the enemy while they made a massive charge. Assasins sneaking trough the ranks to kill the healers and the casters. You get the picture if you've seen Braveheart.

In which case scouts should never have gotten stealth in the first place, just camouflage (they can hide only when they haven't been in combat for so long). Then to balance it out give them volley and longshot in spec lines instead of RA's and a skill or two thats useful in a group.

Minstrel's also should not have gotten stealth, they should have been how they are now but maybe with a charm that can combine with mezz and run song more easily and a shorter cast ae mezz.

Assasins are fine as is so long as they aren't buffed, many nice features like envenom, climb wall and critical strike.

 

[korhal]

omg

That was my dream too
full scale battles
(thats why i made my scout for the main force..to scout.but cant really do it now)
i dont mind to kill stealth and give us camo spec instand (check critshot.com for more info but i can say it will give us abilites to use tracking and stuff...thing that we ment to do ages ago)
and give us volley and longshot in spec line
then archers will act like a REAL archers
not some gimped class with no real job to do in RVR
ah well..that was my whining for today
back to exping =)

 

[censi]

my point about mages ( yes I got some of the details wrong) is that all mages have a form of defense against and archer attack...
The key is evaluating quickly what you are going to , and then executing it well...

I could quote you a list of mages that (all different realms) that have killed me cuz they have reacted ultra fast and played there characters well when I have tried to snipe them... On top of that they make sure they have reasonable slash resist and some con/hp items.... (also these mages are the ones that sometimes instantly run, if they evaluate they wont get to be b4 death)

There are sooo many mages out there with like 3-5% slash and about 900-1k HP.... Those mages literally get raped by archers cuz we out range them and can do massive damage to them.. but the fact that they are vulnerable (cuz of their own incompetance) doesnt mean that archers were ever overpowered.

The only reason archers were considered overpowered was because of how easily we could drop these mages....

all mystic needed to do(but they wont) is imporve the resistance cloth has to slash, just to give you perhaps a bit more time to do something rather than stand there and die.....

Their "see hidden" solution is probably the games biggest joke to date... and camoflage is all but worthless.... if I go ten minutes without fighting nething in emain I log from bordom... ill be damned if I have to wait 10 mins just so I can avoid the swarms of assains out their....

 

[Jimli]

Mythic is trying to balance 33 classes on 9 races and make them all enjoyable to play and try to get this big idea they had real.

While all the time they know they gonna miss some little thing on a class that will make it uber and that for the correction they'll most likely have to make a part of the player group unhappy.

Heard people give the "constructive" comment to improve the victims of the uber class. But since the same class wont be uber anymore they are still nerfed. Dont think that decrease the number of whines.

A lot of people could benefit from sitting back a bit and try to see the big picture.

And ofcourse Mythic has made mistakes, is making them and will make them again. Thousands of people simply can think of more ways to use an ability then the few dozen in the initial testing can.

All in All I think they're doing a pretty good job on balancing.

They could improve hugely on adding some new content to the game. Spellcrafting and Alchemy are (hopefully) in 1.54 but still waiting for Guildhouses, Player owned horses, etc

Some nice long quests at 50 with good stories would be nice too, just put a nice big wad of cash as reward to keep crafting viable tho

[edit] during the time it took me to type all this (kind of busy getting 50 at the same time) someone posted his constructive comment. Must say improving slash resist on cloth is a nice subtle one that could work probably.

 

[hotrat]

Indeed all casters have a defence, just some much better than others. Nearsight being the best, this should be a baseline skill for all casters and should ONLY be useable against arrows not spells. Remember you gotta use QC to cast nearsight (if ur being shot) and it doesn't kill them just stops them.

Also one on one its a pretty good fight mage vs sniper, if both are awake. Even if u got the sniper mezzed they still got that run buff. Its in large battles when a mage is busy casting ae mezz, that he doesnt have time to deal with stupid sniper shooting at him, getting the mezz off is way more important. As a consequence the mezz may land with a QC but the mage will die. Many other situations when a mage is busy and hasn't time to auto-target the sniper and QC defensive spell. This is the strength of snipers.

 

[Aussie-]

DO YOU LIKE SOME CHEESE WITH THAT WHINE
T_T

 

[Tleilax]

Originally posted by Tranquil-


Hmz... Over to something else more serious.. my personal wishlist.. I'd like passive true sight with no rangelimit, an insta pbaoe 20 min stun with 50k radius..no recast timer, and craftable bt breaking 457k damage arrows which enables 1ms drawtime and does all damagetypes to all members of the realm of the target I'm shooting at. Oneshooting entire realms, mwaha.. givz rp..

u mean a tactical nuke?

 

[old.BJ|Bored]

Just a point to encourage flaming

Albs were told that sorc wasnt gimped by cloth armour etc as we should group play and protect them with tanks from charges and do slams to stun..

surely this applies to all the other realms casters v an archer ?
caster with self bt / tank shield who can engage seems to me that bows were not overpowered just required ppl to group!

:irony:

 

[old.Odysseus]

Originally posted by Aussie-
DO YOU LIKE SOME CHEESE WITH THAT WHINE
T_T

no comments.

---

now gimme a ferkin reclass, scout isnt the class i wanna play!
glad my theurg is soon 50 and pvp is comming.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by old.BJ|Bored
Just a point to encourage flaming

Albs were told that sorc wasnt gimped by cloth armour etc as we should group play and protect them with tanks from charges and do slams to stun..

surely this applies to all the other realms casters v an archer ?
caster with self bt / tank shield who can engage seems to me that bows were not overpowered just required ppl to group!

:irony:

<grin>

 

[thebinarysurfer]

Originally posted by old.chesnor


It didn't say anywhere archers would be solo killing machines with no natural enemy.....not in my daoc manual anyway. I know the archer nerf hit you guys hard, but admit it ffs, you were overpowered. It wasn't so much that we would die to you all the time (just most of the time) but that with the stupid range on your bows which hit for stupid damage, and stupid invisibility we could never actually kill you. In fact, very few classes could actually kill you if you had the initiative, and that just plain sucked.
It may have been fun for you being teh uber in the frontiers, but it was very far from fun for your countless victims.

That said, all Mythic have done is replace one stupidly overpowered stralth class with another. wtg Mythic

Ultimately all this is down to Mythic knee-jerk nerfing and over-compensating - i wont deny archers were origionally overpowered - but a small tweak down in some way would have done the trick prehaps even several small tweaks would have readdressed the balance to a comfortable level for all.

Imho (and that of every single archer in the game i should think) the answer was NOT a number of major nerf's aimed at archers which has now underpowered us in the majority of ways and changed the entire purpose and playing style of our class.

Old news - definately. But old doesn't mean it's wrong

 

[kinadold]

A nuker will have around 1000 hp, 10% absorb, hit for 500+ around every 2 sec, and also a bt which will take first attack.
Nukers depending on class has cc, nearsight, pets, speed and
some pbt. Pbt 10 sec effective takes around 1/2 of all physical attacks. Only weakness is that they because of firepower tend to be target first.

An archer will have around 1200-1300 hp, 19% absorb, hit for
200-450 around every 4 sec, and have stealth until first shoot fired which can be compared to a bt, when stealth is away your
a free target. Archers advantage is the longer range, and the
ability to stay hidden until he chose to attack.

In my book nukers are a group class who can kill anyone, archers are sniper class who try to kill the hurt and weak. Try to snipe a hero with moose and ip. Now what Mythic did was to force a
sniperclass into groups, without giving anything in return.

They knew they screwed up, so they added camouflage and
new type of damage arrows, hoping it might help, but if you
look at US-boards its shit.

Archers who has to change arrows in inventory in the middle of battle, shit.
Archers who still dont add anything to a group unless its a freaking wallfight, shit.
Archers who might scout for their groups, but most knows it
aint that way groups play these days, shit.
Archers who has to pay 24 rp's to get an ae-attack who is 100% negated by pbt, shit

If Mythic dont like a sniperclass, they could atleast give groupabilities or redefine the archer class. Maybe as Ody
suggest give archers a choice of a new class.

 

[old.Odysseus]

Maybe as Ody suggest give archers a choice of a new class.

Im afraid that wont happen. Ever.
Just see how hard pressed they were to put respecs in the game (although it is a nobrainer for a player that it should be there).

And now that everyone has used their respecs, I doubt they will change classes significantly again - they certainly wont give another respec.

My bet is that they hope ppl will simply level another char they like to 50 and not touch more chars, so ppl have the informed choice they should have had from the start.

Have I lost faith in Mythic? Yes.
Has Mythic made a fabulous game anyway? Yes.
Is my archer a ferking gimp? Yes.
Will my theurg hit 50 within a few weeks and come kick all of your butts? Yes.

 

[hotrat]

A nuker will have around 1000 hp, 10% absorb, hit for 500+ around every 2 sec, and also a bt which will take first attack.

Thats Hib mages only, my theurg does about 250 dmg every 2 secs, everyone has at least 2x% cold resist

Pbt 10 sec effective takes around 1/2 of all physical attacks. Only weakness is that they because of firepower tend to be target first.

Pbt is nice if one sniper is shooting at you very slowly but if two are shooting you, your gonna die before u can get out of range. Also if a tank is hitting you it can be useful, but as a theurg run buff is also nice so u can sprint a bit then run buff kicks in and tank stops chasing you


P.S. Still not heard many people say that minstrel's were wildly overpowered before see hidden
Personally im looking forward to respeccing to higher weapon lower stealth so I can actually stand a chance vs most classes.

 

[old.Odysseus]

Last my theurg was in rvr, i did 250-350 on everyone nearby (I was level 46, everything i was hammering was orange).
So I expect to see some good results once i get my 50, max my int etc etc.

 

[Flimgoblin]

muhauha

wind theurgist I take it?

not a bitter theurgist (too many of them around) that are upset that their pets don't knock down milegates when they send them at it

 

[-Lonewolf-]

Spin this on its head people, lets say scouts got see hidden

How many archers would we see on the server then?

What would u prefer a melee class who has to get up close to kill u or an archer class who u have to see then run to to kill

Ahhh how much fun would that be 5-10 archers shooting u then running off and stealthing

Think I made my point

Think the only people who lose out in this is soloing classes and that was the whole idea that Mythic was trying to promote

As for assassins just u wait the big nerf stick is gonna slap us one day so that we don't have the choice of soloing or grouping we will have to group

As for not being able to group ask my Cohort brothers I always group with them and do a darn good job interrupting/killing casters and mezzers as well as looking out for them