Buffs on chanter pets...

[tildson]

For fins-groups you shall use Ally, it does less damage due to it absorbs more damage. But you got 2-3pbae aside, so you dont need the pet to do alot of damage, the ally will still hold agro - but take less damage, thus will require less healing. I thought the same, but after having 2 pl-chars with 10bubs each ive noticed a huge diffirence vs compatriot and companion.

Vs Epicmobs? I'd say Ally.. Mostly due to because the compatriot's AF-shield sucks, will more likely get oneshotted Sure, more damage but require lots of healing.

Keep in mind that the compatriot has more HP, but also keep in mind that the Ally can absorb more damage with red AF-buff - which makes the Ally tougher to kill.

A fully buffed armsman with 2k hp wearing cloth will go down faster than a Cleric in 1.5k hp wearing chain

 

[OldDruid]

Every healer in every group I have been in, has found the Compatriot a lot easier to live with, and if it is easier on the healer it is easier on the group. I do tend to be the pet owning class a core group of us initially levels around, whenever we go to a new server (we swap roles then with alts). We have been to a lot of servers doing this, and it would be fair to say after 2+ years we have it off to a fine art now. Believe me, we have tested every pet most thoroughly, and stick with the one that makes life easiest for us. In Hib we have found this to be the Compatriot, in Alb the Amber Sim. In Mid you just use the highest SM pet you have (with an aoe stun healer and a suppression SM as well, that is just so gobsmackingly good).

When I am healer in the group, I find exactly the same thing, and of course it would be odd if I found anything different.

I'll stick with the Compatriot, you stick with the Ally.

Sorted.

LOL!

 

[tildson]

Sure, you keep going with your compatriot

I soloed my chanter mostly, and ally was better even unbuffed. Now he has 10bubs at lvl50 and ive done alot of focuspulling and farming. I see a huge diffirence between ally and compatriot.

http://forums.game.net/showthread.php?threadid=70134&highlight=Ally

Try a comparison again, its really strange how your healers thinks that way. I hate see people spending so much time when you can make it more efficient.

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Originally posted by OldDruid
Every healer in every group I have been in, has found the Compatriot a lot easier to live with, and if it is easier on the healer it is easier on the group. I do tend to be the pet owning class a core group of us initially levels around, whenever we go to a new server (we swap roles then with alts). We have been to a lot of servers doing this, and it would be fair to say after 2+ years we have it off to a fine art now. Believe me, we have tested every pet most thoroughly, and stick with the one that makes life easiest for us. In Hib we have found this to be the Compatriot, in Alb the Amber Sim. In Mid you just use the highest SM pet you have (with an aoe stun healer and a suppression SM as well, that is just so gobsmackingly good).

When I am healer in the group, I find exactly the same thing, and of course it would be odd if I found anything different.

I'll stick with the Compatriot, you stick with the Ally.

Sorted.

LOL!

come back with some evidence, any scientific test at all that would prove that compatriot > ally that I could repeat for myself. I have provided countless tests here that prove that ally > compatriot, all you are providing is 'gut feeling'.

you are just WRONG!

 

[jaapi]

But does pet hit harder fully buffed? I know it hits faster but does it improve damage too?

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Originally posted by jaapi
But does pet hit harder fully buffed? I know it hits faster but does it improve damage too?

Im really not sure, vs purple mobs a bluecon pet rarely hits at all. You can see this by pulling 3 mobs with focus up, they all drop pretty much at the same time. Ive given up dishing out damage add to my pet, or even flipping it back to defensive after pulling it back, focus shields do the work.

 

[jaapi]

But the thing is that i'm enchantment specced and pet does the killing for me, not focus shield. That's why i'm interested to know.
Experience has shown that base buffs really do improve attack speed. When i stun the mob pet hits 3 times unbuffed and 5 times buffed before mob moves again.

Can't really test myself since every fight is different with changing amount of misses and critical hits, so would be nice to know.

And pet does hit purple mobs, otherwise i couldn't solo them.

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Originally posted by jaapi
But the thing is that i'm enchantment specced and pet does the killing for me, not focus shield. That's why i'm interested to know.
Experience has shown that base buffs really do improve attack speed. When i stun the mob pet hits 3 times unbuffed and 5 times buffed before mob moves again.

Can't really test myself since every fight is different with changing amount of misses and critical hits, so would be nice to know.

And pet does hit purple mobs, otherwise i couldn't solo them.

Ok, I guess you need to try some experiments like I did. Try buffing the pet in different ways and getting it to duel a friend. Youll need the pet to hit about 50 times to get a good average, just note the very highest and lowest blows, though I guess if you have wild minion its going to be a bit harder to get a good average this way. hmm. try just noting down the lowest hits over a duel.

 

[old.Zuljin]

I might be the best to answer this since i do play a chantment chanter.

My experiences with the pet is that dex/quick and haste gives increased attack speed on the pet no matter what kind it is. and str/con and Str increases the AF alot.
The only think im still trying to figure is that if str increases the dmg on the pet, but as it looks, it doesn't, but still have to try it on someone.

if anyone wanna do some tests, let me know

EDIT:

Ally > Compatriot, when buffed with Druid buffs, else Compatriot > Ally, but the compatriot cant heal you if you get aggro, so Ally is kinda the best pet to use, no matter where, what and how you kill

 

[OldDruid]

Ok I have just finished a session on Pendragon. I used an Enhantments spec Chanter (44 Enchantments rest light) to get consistent reference buffs.

I pulled single blue rocots, and let the pet damage them down to low hit points for a quick kill at the end, then put the pet on passive, until their life was at the very last dinky segment you could see. I then cast stun on the rocot, and finished it off with light dd.

From log:

*** Chat Log Opened: Fri Nov 21 21:48:22 2003

[21:48:38] You begin casting a Underhill Ally spell!
[21:48:43] You cast a Underhill Ally Spell!
[21:48:43] The underhill ally is now under your control.
[21:48:44] <Begin Info: Fury of the Underhill>
[21:48:44] Function: improved stat enhancement
[21:48:44]
[21:48:44] Enhances the target's listed stat(s).
[21:48:44]
[21:48:44] Str/Con bonus: 64
[21:48:44] Target: Controlled
[21:48:44] Range: 1000
[21:48:44] Duration: 20:0 min
[21:48:44] Power cost: 35
[21:48:44] Casting time: 3.0 sec
[21:48:44]
[21:48:44] <End Info>
[21:48:46] underhill ally's meditative state fades.
[21:48:49] <Begin Info: Subdolosity>
[21:48:49] Function: improved stat enhancement
[21:48:49]
[21:48:49] Enhances the target's listed stat(s).
[21:48:49]
[21:48:49] Dex/Qui bonus: 66
[21:48:49] Target: Controlled
[21:48:49] Range: 1000
[21:48:49] Duration: 20:0 min
[21:48:49] Power cost: 36
[21:48:49] Casting time: 3.0 sec
[21:48:49]
[21:48:49] <End Info>

''''''''''
Edit: Obviously the same buffs were used on the Ally and the Compatriot. No self heal proc buffs or any other buffs other than a damage add to get the mob to low hit points fast, were used.

''''''''''
[21:57:12] You get 16,319,178 experience points. (5,439,726 camp bonus)
[21:57:12] The rocot drops a Daemon Emerald Seal.
[21:57:12] The rocot drops a Daemon Emerald Seal.
[21:57:12] The rocot drops a bag of coins.
[21:57:12] You must select a target for this spell!
[21:57:12] You must select a target for this spell!
[21:57:12] You must select a target for this spell!
[21:57:13] You must select a target for this spell!
[21:57:13] You must select a target for this spell!
[21:57:13] You must select a target for this spell!
[21:57:15] You've been in combat recently, the spell has no effect on you!
[21:57:18] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[21:57:18] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a follow up!
[21:57:20] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[21:57:20] You heal underhill ally for 282 hit points.
[21:57:20] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[21:57:21] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a follow up!
[21:57:21] You've been in combat recently, the spell has no effect on you!
[21:57:21] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a follow up!
[21:57:22] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[21:57:22] You heal underhill ally for 282 hit points.
[21:57:22] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[21:57:23] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a follow up!
[21:57:24] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[21:57:24] You heal underhill ally for 282 hit points.
[21:57:24] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[21:57:25] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a follow up!
[21:57:27] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[21:57:27] You heal underhill ally for 282 hit points.
[21:57:27] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[21:57:29] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a follow up!
[21:57:29] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[21:57:29] You heal underhill ally for 282 hit points.
[21:57:29] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[21:57:31] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[21:57:31] You heal underhill ally for 282 hit points.
[21:57:35] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[21:57:37] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[21:58:14] Your character has been saved.
[21:58:49] @@You say, "6 x 282 for a full heal"
[21:58:54] underhill ally's meditative state fades.
[21:59:02] @@You say, "for Ally"
* was away using calc to make sure sums were right here. You sit down. Type '/stand' or move to stand up.
[22:00:56] @@You say, "for 1692 hp's"

'''''''''''''''
[22:08:42] The rocot dies!
[22:08:42] Your standing with Nachelai Legion has decreased.
[22:08:42] Your standing with The Picullus Imps has increased.
[22:08:42] You get 12,777,547 experience points. (3,312,697 camp bonus)
[22:08:42] The rocot drops a bag of coins.
[22:08:42] You must select a target for this spell!
[22:08:45] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[22:08:45] You've been in combat recently, the spell has no effect on you!
[22:08:45] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a follow up!
[22:08:47] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[22:08:47] You heal underhill compatriot for 282 hit points.
[22:08:47] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[22:08:50] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[22:08:50] You heal underhill compatriot for 282 hit points.
[22:08:51] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[22:08:53] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[22:08:53] You heal underhill compatriot for 282 hit points.
[22:08:54] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[22:08:57] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[22:08:57] You heal underhill compatriot for 282 hit points.
[22:08:58] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[22:09:00] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[22:09:00] You heal underhill compatriot for 282 hit points.
[22:09:01] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[22:09:03] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[22:09:03] You heal underhill compatriot for 282 hit points.
[22:09:05] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[22:09:08] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[22:09:08] You heal underhill compatriot for 282 hit points.
[22:09:11] You begin casting a Succor Ally spell!
[22:09:13] You cast a Succor Ally Spell!
[22:10:02] @@You say, "7 x 282 for a full heal"
[22:10:10] @@You say, "for Compatriot"
[22:10:48] @@You say, "for 1974 hp's"

''''''''''

Each time I tried this, I got exactly the same results. With equivalent buffs, the Compatriot has 282 more hp's than the Ally. More hp's is an easier healing life for your healers, exactly as I said before.

You will NOT get 282 extra hp's onto an Ally, from a Druids af buff.

If you doubt the results this is a remarkably easy test to copy. What damage a pet does against another player is neither here nor there. What matters is the ability to take damage, the Compatriot CAN take that damage, and the difference has always been visibly and quickly noticeable to the observant.
Edit: The difference in the damage taken by the Compatriot was also noticeable by being slightly less hp loss with each hit than the Ally was taking, but it could have been a run of low blues vs high blues, so isn't particularly significant. Edit2: Although given Haley's observations below, the Compatriot definitely was taking less damage. which also helps the life of your healers.
That 282 more hp's translates into approx. 17% more hp's, which is a fair few hits.

Ok I knew I had seen this somewhere (the Compatriot self buff was nagging me as being advantageous and not being a disadvantage), and it is also on the Herald as Haley (who wrote this) says:
"Your statement is a very common ERROR that people make. The compatriot pet casts the way of the moon "powerfield" spell which is AF 95. The best druid shield buff "Superior Skin of the Redwood" is only AF 55. Check out the values yourself on the herald. People often forget that the af on mage shields are much higher AF than the ones druids,bards, and wardens can hand out to anyone.

In my experiment as best as I could tell AF on pet only decreased the amount of dmg the mobs did to the pet. It had no effect on how much dmg the mob took from the dmg or focus shield. So again, despite what someone may tell you out there, the Compatriot is the best pet to pull with. "

So, not only does the Compatriot have a substantial hit point advantage, it also takes less damage than the Ally.

 

[OldDruid]

>>Empirical data would suggests that this is not true of yellow cons or above, probably not true of blue either. might be true of rocots or greys<<

You miss the point, a hit point pool is a hit point pool.

 

[OldDruid]

>>But does pet hit harder fully buffed? I know it hits faster but does it improve damage too?<<

If it hits faster then it is doing more damage over time. The only time faster attacks get a reduction per hit is on styled attack bonuses, which get reduced, and which don't apply to the pets anyway. The base damage hits more frequently, for the same base damage, so damage output goes up.

That's what haste is all about.

 

[OldDruid]

>>come back with some evidence, any scientific test at all that would prove that compatriot > ally that I could repeat for myself. I have provided countless tests here that prove that ally > compatriot, all you are providing is 'gut feeling'.

you are just WRONG!<<

Ok, now it is time for that apology.

and PS, 2+ years playing the class and being observant, is very far from being "gut feeling".

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

All you have proven is you can solo rocots, with a long winded way of calculating their hit points.

Way back this post was about how to focus pull efficiently. I have already conceded that vs greens or greys you may be better with a compatriot if unbuffed...

I have proven that vs a yellow (probably blue) or higher with buffs you are not.

You tested with an enchantments specced chanter on a server that is like 3 patches ahead.

Think more about my test with the yellow mob. Compatriot died first, given the very best buffs it could, vs the ally in the same situation. Thats what people in the fins grp wanna know, how to do the best pull they can, not how to getby as a solo chantments specced chanter.

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Originally posted by OldDruid
>>Empirical data would suggests that this is not true of yellow cons or above, probably not true of blue either. might be true of rocots or greys<<

You miss the point, a hit point pool is a hit point pool.

No you miss the point healing a pet is about how quickly that hitpoint pool goes down. It doesnt matter how big the pool is, what matters is if the healer can keep up with the damage being delt. (we are after all hypothetically pulling lots of decent con mobs in a group here for exp).

Animist have loads of hitpoints, but you wouldnt use one to tank 10 redcons at once.

Now go find me a test that uses :-
a). A fully buffed pet (or at very least all base buffs) - as one of my tests showed its the fact that AF does/doesnt stack that makes a lot of difference.

b). A manachanter, you cant focus pull without focus. Your quick whip round the roccot room and 2pbs wont work on fins.

c). A yellow con or higher mob, no exp in greens even if you can pull 20 at once, you wont find manachanters doing roccots for cash...

 

[OldDruid]

Whether I am Light, Mana, or Enchantments specced, the summoned pet starts out exactly the same. It has its base hp pool, and other base specs. Everybody that plays an Enchanter, can easily verify exactly what buffs I put onto the test pets, as I even listed them in the test data, and they can compare them with the Official specs to see if they have been tampered with, if they so choose. It is continuing with a constant after summoning the constant, namely the pet.

By emphasising your testing on actual damage and hits in combat, you introduce variables. Even with weapon full spec, and with MP weapons, damage is within variables, which is not constant. That damage certainly does vary too, as most people reading this will know, even excluding crits, and crits can have a very significant impact on the results of your testing method. But then you should know that, and you should know that your Empirical data is therefore going to be fluctuating within those upper and lower limits, and with crits the fluctuations can in fact be drastic, if you get a run of crits, which often happens. So it is easy to see that your test design is flawed from the word go, and to extract anything potentially meaningful from it, would need many thousands of repetitions.

On the other hand, to inflict damage on a pet, to an almost exact degree, given the markings on the healthbar of the pet window, as the firing point for casting the stun, as soon as the lowest is reached, will produce healing figures within quite tight parameters. Whilst the pet still has a tiny amount of life left, it is enough to demonstrate any significant difference in hp's, and that after all, is what we are interested in. The slowness with which the health bar went down, allowed an accurate timing of that cast to take place. Even if the mob got an extra hit in on one pet, then the impact of that extra lost life, need not be too significant. If the results had been close, then it would have needed extensive repetition to determine the true situation. But the results were not close, and the testing setup is simple enough for any Enchanter to quickly verify its results for themselves.

Empirical data from faulty and presumptious empiral testing is spurious, and misleading at best * see below
A simple testing procedure has proved conclusively that the heavy tank pet IS the heavy tank pet (just as Mythic designed it to be), which is why it has substantially more hp's than the light tank pet (as the Ally was designed to be).
Your testing assumptions about superior Druid af buffs were no more than that - assumptions. So your whole testing structure has embarked from a starting point that does not actually exist, and carried on into an environment that is known to be populated with wild variables. Scientific method does not load the dice before carrying out the experiment.
All you are doing is attempting to rehash old ground that has already been gone over many times, and you are trying to insist that black is white.

* A child painstakingly trains spiders to follow voice commands. The child explains to its teacher that a spider hears through its legs. When asked to demonstrate this, the child rips all the legs off the spider, gives the spider a command to move forward, turn left, etc. The spider doesn't budge.

"See!" says the child, "It's gone deaf!"

So, the situation is, the self buff is better, the hp pool is bigger, and you buff it the same as you would buff an Ally, and what pray, is the result?

The complete buff issue from your angle is a cul-de-sac leading nowhere. Why would you want to put a worse buff on the Compatriot?

You think the environment somehow changes your pet does it? Frankly, I find my Chanter pets are the same, no matter what environment I put them in. Their hp pool doesn't shrink or expand
in the way you seem to think it does.

You have this mob con fixation, as if that is relevant to anything. You can't avoid the basic reality, that a hp pool is a hp pool, and an af buff spec is an af buff spec, no matter how hard you squirm in the attempt.

and this players Mana Chanters often farm rocots very successfully for fast money, thank you very much.

>>Way back this post was about how to focus pull efficiently. I have already conceded that vs greens or greys you may be better with a compatriot if unbuffed...

I have proven that vs a yellow (probably blue) or higher with buffs you are not.

You tested with an enchantments specced chanter on a server that is like 3 patches ahead.<<

You have proven nothing, except that you will insist on opposing facts that have been proven time and time again already in this game. To concede that one is better against one con mob, is to also conced that it is better against all con mobs. If you can't see that, that's your problem.

Again you have this con fixation. Get it through your head, that the hp pool is the hp pool, and the af buff is the af buff, and the af buff that the Compatriot gets, is way BETTER than anything a Druid can cast! I repeat, if it better on ANY con mob, then it is better on ALL con mobs! That's the point you are completely refusing to see. The Compatriot doesn't get the willies and morph into a hermit crab just because it is faced with a grape con mob ffs!

All the testing I did, which was not complex, and is quickly and easily verifiable by anybody, confirmed that things regarding hp's and af are pretty much as they have been for an extremely long time now.

>>Thats what people in the fins grp wanna know, how to do the best pull they can, not how to getby as a solo chantments specced chanter.<<

Which is precisely why, the Chanters that would turn up at Fins when I was pulling, that arrived with Allys, switched to Compatriots and used them after. Because they could see the difference with their own eyes, and it was confirmed by the healers. This is now for a period of 17 months, since the FS was fixed. I think your present patch is somewhere in that timeframe?

An Enchantments spec is the easiest to confirm with, as buffs are a known constant. The fact is, it wouldn't matter if the pet was completely unbuffed, because the base data would be the same - the Compatriot has a bigger hp pool, and an af 95 self buff. The Ally has a significantly smaller hp pool, and the best af buff you can put on it can't come near the Compatriots. ALL OF WHICH IS WELL DOCUMENTED, AND ALL OF WHICH IS ALL YOU ACTUALLY NEED TO KNOW!

Edited typos.

 

[OldDruid]

>>Animist have loads of hitpoints, but you wouldnt use one to tank 10 redcons at once.<<

Animists don't have the hit points of a heavy tank.

Animists don't have the af of a heavy tank.

Neither does the Ally.

 

[tildson]

The Ally is > the compatriot due to the AF-buff, which absorbs more HP. Please run the test again with same buffs but a red AF-buff on the Ally.

For soloing Enhancements Enchanters, your choice is the one to go. Mythic stated that Compatriot has more HP and self AFbuff, but Ally with AFbuff turns the tide.

 

[eneq]

Well all i can say that i think they almost the same i focus pulling tbh..
I have PL 5 Chars to 50 b doing this.
I use the compatriot all the time.
I have also used the Ally
But its not that big diff from them 2 pets....
The Ally is a biatch when pulling due to it stopping and buffing all the time..


What ic an c from posts here is that its 2 sides of the story.
Like old said the testing ingame is flawed casue its not perfect testing methods..
Yellow can vary in 4 lvls and thus dont make the test valid.

Even if you take a druid lvl 50 it dont work..
I tested it with my druid and i got 120 - 176 in damaged returned on me..
the average was 133.3 something..

But then on the other hand Old druids numbers maybe arnt that solid either. You refering to a herald/mythic and we all know they been wrong before in numbers etc etc.

I find this posts very informative and interesting to read.
But plz just state the facts you come up with.

Dont need to point fingers saying "YOU ARE WRONG"

Just say what you have come up with. No more no less.

Thx for interesting reading m8´s

 

[OldDruid]

>>But then on the other hand Old druids numbers maybe arnt that solid either. You refering to a herald/mythic and we all know they been wrong before in numbers etc etc.<<

Yes I agree regarding the numbers, and if the hp pool hadn't been so marked a difference, then an extensive series of tests would have had to be done, to get an indication of what the difference was.

That hp pool difference has actually been stated for a considerable time (including on the Herald), and that quick series of tests was useful if nothing else, to show that things haven't changed in the meantime. If anything, I have likely understated the hp pool advantage that the Compatriot has.

The old Enchanter TL did some exceedingly extensive testing on Pendragon (I may have had some serious disagreements with him over his bias towards Light Enchanters, but credit where it is due, his testing of basics was rigorous), with the assistance of Mythic people, as well as others. Their numbers in this regard are solid.

 

[vintervargen]

i found compatriot to be best when doing massive pulls, ez, df, cm etc, but also in galla. everytime with 50nurt buffs. easier because it required less healing - more hp, more af/abs i dont know and i dont care, but with compatriot there were less downtime.

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Haha OldDruid, you write so much and say nothing of relevence. I cant even being to be bothered to quote you again.

Look the data is there, its not fixed, anyone can repeat my tests which show that :-

ally > compatriot when even slightly buffed.

My tests where scientific, done with scientific method, repeated tests under a number of circumstances which all come to the same conclusion. Anyone can repeate these tests and prove for themselves which is better.

Some people just cant admit when the facts stare them in the face.

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Originally posted by vintervargen
i found compatriot to be best when doing massive pulls, ez, df, cm etc, but also in galla. everytime with 50nurt buffs. easier because it required less healing - more hp, more af/abs i dont know and i dont care, but with compatriot there were less downtime.

Downtime with druid + chanter in galla is soley based on chanter mana. Seeing as focus shield damage is constant (for the same mob), then neither is better for downtime. Though due to absorb youll find that the your druid spends less mana, it shouldnt affect your downtime as your focus mana is the limiting factor.

Focus pull a cave drifter with druid + chanter. Chanter will either go OOM or very close to it. Druid will lose about 1/4 of his bar of mana..

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Originally posted by eneq
Well all i can say that i think they almost the same i focus pulling tbh..
I have PL 5 Chars to 50 b doing this.
I use the compatriot all the time.
I have also used the Ally
But its not that big diff from them 2 pets....
The Ally is a biatch when pulling due to it stopping and buffing all the time..


What ic an c from posts here is that its 2 sides of the story.
Like old said the testing ingame is flawed casue its not perfect testing methods..
Yellow can vary in 4 lvls and thus dont make the test valid.

Even if you take a druid lvl 50 it dont work..
I tested it with my druid and i got 120 - 176 in damaged returned on me..
the average was 133.3 something..

First ill agree with you that it doesnt make a huge huge difference. I lvled to 50 with compatriot, but I did notice when I changed to ally. There are a few situations where youll really notice the difference, with very dangeours pulls or mobs that are very sensitive to healing (sporites in galla are a prime example, or any mob that does a lot of nuking (named recarn beasts outside say)).

The ally is a bitch for doing that healing thing, there are ways around it (go ungrouped as chanter, make sure the pet is fresh before a pull, spam the buttons, just live withit etc). As I said to begin with ally > compatriot if you can putup with the HoTs.

My tests are valid, because I used the same mob (I didnt kill it it was the exact same yellow con). I also repeated my test multiple times to verifty the findings as any good scientist would, over a timescale that was good enough. The difference was enough to be seen clearly as reported above.

Im learning a lot too, its good to have people challenge your point of view, makes you rethink and recheck stuff.

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

For anyone still thinking about hit point pool, Think about this...

Say you have a very long pull, one where your druid heals the pet a lot, the total amount of healing required is:-

hit points of pet + number of baseline heals required.

As the number of baseline heals gets larger the hit points of the pet becomes less and less signficiant. In the case where you are not healing at all (roccots / greens/greys), you can see that hit point pool is very significant enough to give the comaptriot an edge. Once you start needing heals though (like for any decent con mob, then the hitpoint pool becomes less and less significant).
What becomes important is how many baseline heals are required to keep the hit points of pet constant and thats 100% down to absorb assuming the pet gets hit all the time, which is true of lvl 44 underhill vs lvl 60 purps...

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

oldDruid, one last final attempt to make you see the light of day:-

Go and look at my tests with AF buff on the pet, youll notice that the ally has much better absorb, this is easily verifyable...

The reason for your 'hermit crab' analogy is that as the con of a mob increases the AF (not absorb) of the pet becomes less and less imporant. When fighting deep purples the pet will get hit every single time rendering its self AF buff useless, but the allys greater absorb shines through and reduces the damange done by a greater amount. This is the reason for the difference in con, and why you can solo roccots but dont know anything about focusing purples. The border line where allys absorb > compatriots AF is around blue con mobs, for less than blues your AF buff works, for greater than blues you should rely on the better absorb of ally.

 

[Shrye]

Hum... Can't remember who it was who did a "scientific test" of ally vs compatriot hitpoint - anyways:

The heals being used was too big, use the smallest one instead (minor-something) - for all we know, the last heal could be to fill the pets hp bar despite it already being at nearly-capped (1-10% or so - artificial hitpoints, nothing else).

Another thing, the combat logs ain't included either! It's wellknown that the compatriot has evade, versus lowcon mobs it's as good as guaranteed that they evade not just once, but several times - yet again, bumping their artificial hitpoints.

... and nerf 'em long posts with no content... Put them in Off-Topic, if you got an urge to write crap (or dunnoz, couldn't be arsed to read it all actually)

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Last and final epirical data alert.

Ally (fully buffed) vs giant lusus. Ally lives for 2 mins.
Compatriot (fully buffed) vs giant lusus. Compatriot last 1min30.

Ally (with just AF buff) vs finlaith. Ally lasts 52 seconds.
Compatriot (with no buffs, cause AF doesnt stack). Compatriot lasts 40 seconds.

Both tests repeated 3 times each, all timings are accuracte to well within 3 seconds variance.

Given that we know compatriot has more hitpoitns, the ally is doing suprisingly well to beat it just using its meagre hitpoitns.

Anyone is welcome to repeat my tests, ive gone to the effort to do them as scientificaly as possible and spent a lot of time. I chose lusus first cause they are purp to 50 and I wanted a fully buffed vs purp con test, and the lusus are easy to get solo.

I did fin second, beacuse after all fins is what you people want to know how to pull, and i skiped all the other buffs to save me time (the other base / spec buffs ofc do the same to both pets and just mean that my 6 test take about half an hour to run).

If anyone has any further ideas for tests they would like me to run, well please suggest them and ill do my best.

Conclusion.
Reading through all my tests the basic fact is that ally is 20-25% better at tanking decent con mobs than the compatriot. Not masses, and ofc you might decide that its not worth using due to HoTs or might want to keep compartiot for doing roccots.

I think this closes the topic, unless someone can find fault with the multitude of hard evidence and real field tests that I have conducted as scientificaly as possible.

 

[OldDruid]

Originally posted by Shrye
Hum... Can't remember who it was who did a "scientific test" of ally vs compatriot hitpoint - anyways:

The heals being used was too big, use the smallest one instead (minor-something) - for all we know, the last heal could be to fill the pets hp bar despite it already being at nearly-capped (1-10% or so - artificial hitpoints, nothing else).

Another thing, the combat logs ain't included either! It's wellknown that the compatriot has evade, versus lowcon mobs it's as good as guaranteed that they evade not just once, but several times - yet again, bumping their artificial hitpoints.

... and nerf 'em long posts with no content... Put them in Off-Topic, if you got an urge to write crap (or dunnoz, couldn't be arsed to read it all actually)

The patch we have gives the heals values. If you heal more than capacity, it gives you the numbers to finish healing, eg, 282, 282, 165.

The actual combat bit wasn't relevant, it was the numbers to fill the health bar up that were relevant.

It is the Ally that evades (another reason why it is less suitable for focus pulling), not the Compatriot. It is the dual wielding light tank. The reason it got nerfed last year, after it was fixed, was because it was evading properly, and Albs and Mids kind of got upset and complained about it (yet the BD pets and the Necro pets somehow it is ok that they evade). So it was stated to be evading too much and got tweaked down dramatically. I don't know if you ever got the chance to use the Ally in that patch, but it was a joy to behold, and I used it a lot then.

The heavy tank is designed to absorb the punishment, and the heavy tank pet is the Compatriot.

If you think otherwise, fine, carry on.

I'm sticking with the Compatriot.

Oh and Boni, you might be rather surprised just how many grapes I have focus pulled since the FS shield was fixed. I was about the first person (likely even the very first person) to do FS pulling on Pendragon before it went live, and it was me that wrote all the initial "how to's" on it. For the Matter Cabbie too, for that matter.

You have this outstanding confidence in the Ally, fine, you stick with it. I'll only bang my head against a brick wall for so long, and that time has run out.

Good luck.

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Originally posted by OldDruid

You have this outstanding confidence in the Ally, fine, you stick with it. I'll only bang my head against a brick wall for so long, and that time has run out.

Good luck.

Im sure your great on pendragon, but whatever the design of the pet, the scientific test above show which is better in the field right now on hib excal.

You havent offered any evidence (appart from a comparison of max hit points, which i never doubted).

oh and ally doesnt evade on our server atm.

Good luck too.