Broken britain

[Scouse]

People need to stop posting links from el reg. They're worse than any tabloid for this kinda stuff.

That argument is retarded.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Its irrelevant - you just dont have anything useful to say about the points so you fall back on questioning whether we are allowed to have an opinion which is frankly nonsense.

You won't let me say my points because you baulk at answering the most basic of questions, you don't know what they are because you haven't given me the space to air them as you continuously refuse to say "yes that has happened to me or someone I personally know" or "no it hasn't happened in my experience".

There is a whole further debate we can get into following it, but you've already decided you know what my points are without giving me the space to respond. This is possibly the most moronic set of responses I've seen on forums in some time.

And people thought Toht was bad, at least he permits discussion unlike this total retard who's putting fingers in his ears going LALALALA before the discussion has even begun, aces!

 

[ST^]

"I've got nothing" is what I read.

 

[Raven]

Just because you it hasn't had a direct effect on you doesn't mean its not a totally fucked up situation.
It is illegal (under the ambiguous anti-terrorism act) to take pictures of many public buildings and places.
Your DNA will be taken and stored regardless of whether you have committed a crime, refusing to give it will result in it being taken by force, being innocent until proven guilty is a thing of the past.
We have the most CCTV cameras per population than any other county, despite the fact that they have virtually no impact on crime.
Your emails, texts and phone calls are monitored and will soon have to be stored and reported to the government, times, duration and the person you sent them to.....for now, I imagine they will store the content too eventually.
The right to protest is pretty much gone now, again under the covers all acts of freedom "anti-terrorism act"

While it is exaggerated by the media (printed especially) it still exists and is still full of fail.

 

[ST^]

we have the most cctv cameras per population than any other county, despite the fact that they have virtually no impact on crime.

HOW IS THIS AN ISSUE FOR ANYONE?!?!?!

Why would you care other than because you've been told to care?

 

[MYstIC G]

Ok, don't lets start being stupid with massive text please.

 

[old.user4556]

*wishes Wazz would say something about that big text*

 

[Embattle]

I tend to agree with Wazz, but I will also add most of you are turning into right old farts

 

[rynnor]

You won't let me say my points because you baulk at answering the most basic of questions, you don't know what they are because you haven't given me the space to air them as you continuously refuse to say "yes that has happened to me or someone I personally know" or "no it hasn't happened in my experience".

There is a whole further debate we can get into following it, but you've already decided you know what my points are without giving me the space to respond. This is possibly the most moronic set of responses I've seen on forums in some time.

And people thought Toht was bad, at least he permits discussion unlike this total retard who's putting fingers in his ears going LALALALA before the discussion has even begun, aces!

What discussion - you are trying to stop anyone from discussing things unless they have personally suffered under them.

If tomorrow the Govt passes a law letting em drag off n murder people would you really argue that we couldnt complain about it unless we had been dragged off n murdered - its just plain stupid and your just trolling.

You have yet to say anything on the subject of the thread other than to say we cant discuss it.

 

[tierk]

Ok for those asking about personal experiences:

1. In the lead up to the Iraq war i was arrested twice for peacefully demonstration outside the house of commons - under anti terror laws.

2. I was photographed, called and interviewed by Special Branch for taking part in demonstrations outside the Israeli Embassy in London during the 2nd Intifada.

3. I had been stopped and searched more than ten times after the 7/7 bombings in London, in a space of less then two months and all under anti - terror legislation.

For the people asking what does it matter that there are more CCTV cameras in the UK than anywhere in the world. You do not become a police state over night, it is a series of small steps which when you look at them individually seem totally innocuous but when you see it combined with all the other things - ID cards, anti terror laws, DNA databases, surveillance of calls, faxes, texts, emails etc - it becomes pretty clear where it is all leading to.

For some the idea of losing civil liberties might not mean anything but for people like me that chose to live in the UK it was one of the things that i truly cherished about living in England. The loss of these liberties was another factor - one of many - that helped push me to move away.

 

[ST^]

Ok, don't lets start being stupid with massive text please.

Why is the option there at all if we're not allowed to use it? :/

 

[Embattle]

For the people asking what does it matter that there are more CCTV cameras in the UK than anywhere in the world. You do not become a police state over night, it is a series of small steps which when you look at them individually seem totally innocuous but when you see it combined with all the other things - ID cards, anti terror laws, DNA databases, surveillance of calls, faxes, texts, emails etc - it becomes pretty clear where it is all leading to.

Perhaps it is me but I've never been that concerned, it could be due to the fact I've never believed in the American view of freedom and liberty. It is based around the idea of having more of it than you actually do, the difference between visible and hidden surveillance. There has never been more information and in turn there has never been more information collected, stored, made avaliable to the public, to the media, etc, etc and perhaps thus some people have never been more depressed at the state of it.

The reality is that for a generation that seems so determined to post where they are and who they are it seems asking for privacy is almost laughable. It may well be early net users that are most concerned about it and don't use things like twitter, facebook, etc and while perhaps I should be classed as one I'm not because I've never truely been hidden no matter what I do.

Naturally this is all just my opinion

 

[DaGaffer]

Perhaps it is me but I've never been that concerned, it could be due to the fact I've never believed in the American view of freedom and liberty. It is based around the idea of having more of it than you actually do, the difference between visible and hidden surveillance. There has never been more information and in turn there has never been more information collected, stored, made avaliable to the public, to the media, etc, etc and perhaps thus some people have never been more depressed at the state of it.

The reality is that for a generation that seems so determined to post where they are and who they are it seems asking for privacy is almost laughable. It may well be early net users that are most concerned about it and don't use things like twitter, facebook, etc and while perhaps I should be classed as one I'm not because I've never truely been hidden no matter what I do.

Naturally this is all just my opinion

There's a big difference between having a Facebook profile, and say, having your medical records accessable by any public servant who fancies a look. The key issues are consent and control, and increasingly the public have very little of either over the issues that matter.

 

[tierk]

Perhaps it is me but I've never been that concerned, it could be due to the fact I've never believed in the American view of freedom and liberty.It is based around the idea of having more of it than you actually do, the difference between visible and hidden surveillance. There has never been more information and in turn there has never been more information collected, stored, made avaliable to the public, to the media, etc, etc and perhaps thus some people have never been more depressed at the state of it.

The reality is that for a generation that seems so determined to post where they are and who they are it seems asking for privacy is almost laughable. It may well be early net users that are most concerned about it and don't use things like twitter, facebook, etc and while perhaps I should be classed as one I'm not because I've never truely been hidden no matter what I do.

Naturally this is all just my opinion

I don't consider myself as a person that has an American view on liberty and freedom, if anything i think that some of their ideas on freedom, for example the right to bear arms is just retarded.

People have a choice when they post there details on FB Titter etc. But what we see happening today is something that is not done by choice - regardless of which government gets voted in we still get more and more the same shit, Labour or Conservatives.

The main problem that i see with the way things have gone over the last twenty odd years, is that for every new bit of legislation that has been issued, which has eroded civil liberties, we have been told that it would only be used for super special circumstances. Then low and behold, it is being used and abused in ways that we were promised they would be never used in.

The lists given in this thread of things that are now being abused should make people sit up and see where we are headed. If you think it has no effect on you, then i would say that you are giving away rights that your fathers and mothers fought for years and years ago and they are been stolen from all of us via the back door.

Today you say it doesn't matter it doesn't effect you and i was one of those people but the day will come when you will find something that you do want to demonstrate against and you will hit these draconian laws and quite frankly when does all this shit actually stop? CCTV behind the bike shed to catch children lighting up a fag? Traffic Wardens carrying guns to take down serial parking offenders? Slight exaggerations but i hope you get what i mean.

 

[Krazeh]

HOW IS THIS AN ISSUE FOR ANYONE?!?!?!

Why would you care other than because you've been told to care?

So in your opinion when do all the little laws and encroachments on personal freedoms and liberty, which on their own don't really affect the vast majority of people on a day to day basis, become an issue?

Are you not in the slightest bit concerned that giving freedoms away and increasing the power the Government has in a piece by piece fashion is eventually going to lead to a situation where it does effect you but you're helpless to do anything about it?

 

[Embattle]

Again I will refer a couple of points to my the first part of my previous post, the difference now is that you know about it whereas in the past you never did since things were more secretive.

I don't deny for a second that such legislation gets abused but I'm a person who believes it is the exception and not the rule, the odd few people who've posted the odd example well sorry but I wasn't there and I don't actually know you on much of a personal level so thus such examples only carry so much weight when trying to prove it is the rule.

I keep an eye on such things but you really shouldn't use the last examples and even worse then trying to refer to them as slight exaggerations...it makes your previous comments look a bit weak.

As for being involved in a demonstration, firstly I don't believe they do much and secondly if I was to be involved in one I would accept the possible consequences.

Britain isn't broken in my opinion but neither is it perfect but then as I've said before there isn't a country that is perfect but your view depends on your current situation.

I guess it is true, opinions are like arses.

 

[ST^]

So in your opinion when do all the little laws and encroachments on personal freedoms and liberty, which on their own don't really affect the vast majority of people on a day to day basis, become an issue?

Are you not in the slightest bit concerned that giving freedoms away and increasing the power the Government has in a piece by piece fashion is eventually going to lead to a situation where it does effect you but you're helpless to do anything about it?

Non-issues do not contribute towards a larger problem. If CCTV isn't worth worrying about, then it isn't worth worrying about. Strike it from the list completely. Same to the rest of your 'little' issues.

Why is it that nobody except the serial demonstrator can give specific examples?

 

[DaGaffer]

Non-issues do not contribute towards a larger problem. If CCTV isn't worth worrying about, then it isn't worth worrying about. Strike it from the list completely. Same to the rest of your 'little' issues.

Why is it that nobody except the serial demonstrator can give specific examples?

what a ridiculous assertion. The integration of all these "little" issues is what makes them a threat to liberty. Its the desire of government to join all this shit up thats the problem. ID cards are the perfect example; it ain't the card, its the database that's the problem. As for specific examples, once again you're missing the point; instead of saying to each one of these "little" incursions "ah its a non-issue don't worry about it" ask why is it being done in the first place? If nothing else, the cost of most of these schemes is out of all proportion to their nominal benefit and as a taxpayer that does affect you.

 

[Scouse]

"I've got nothing" is what I read.

Now now ST^. Don't lie. There was no reading involved

 

[Scouse]

HOW IS THIS AN ISSUE FOR ANYONE?!?!?!

'cause the minute I leave my street, the whole ten miles to work, I can see yellow cameras every 3/4 of a mile, and I don't like it?????


I mean, seriously. Is it that hard to understand? Or do you have conversations like this in your house:

Your Sister: I hate tomatoes.

You: Why?

Your Sister: I just do.

You: No, Why?

Your Sister: I don't know, I just don't like 'em. Never did.

You: That's not good enough. I'm indifferent to them. Why aren't you? Bitch?

Your Sister: Fuck off.

Your Mother: I like cock in my ass!

I like your mum, I do.

 

[Scouse]

it ain't the card, its the database that's the problem

Actually Gaff. It's the principle of the thing....

 

[Krazeh]

Actually Gaff. It's the principle of the thing....

I'm more with DaGaffer on the ID card matter. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a card that proves your ID, it's the database and the extra crap they've added on top of a simple ID card that's the problem.

 

[Scouse]

Loads of good (well, quite horridly oppressive stuff) stuff

Can I add that my mum recieved a letter off North Wales police, asking her to explain why she'd driven to Wrexham.

Yep. That's right. They'd got a photo of her number plate from one of their cameras and then found her address and sent her a letter asking her why she'd driven to Wrexham when she lives on the Wirral.

Needless to say she binned it, rather than writing back saying "On the day in question I was visiting a close relative that died in my arms shortly after my arrival..."


Now. If anyone thinks that's "OK" then I hope you get raped for cuntmas.

 

[ST^]

'cause the minute I leave my street, the whole ten miles to work, I can see yellow cameras every 3/4 of a mile, and I don't like it?????

I mean, seriously. Is it that hard to understand? Or do you have conversations like this in your house:

Don't like what? Is this aesthetics we're talking about? Once again I find it impossible to get a straight answer. If aesthetics is the problem then this discussion is over. Britain broken... because of eyesore cameras. Yeah, k.

If not, you need to see someone about that paranoia.

And no, in my house people generally know why they don't like something, as opposed to moaning about it just because the newspaper did.

 

[Aoami]

why do people find it so hard to form their own opinion? that would be a good subject for debate.

just so that question doesn't sound massively hypocritical, i'll put it down to the evolution of mass media, especially internet based media. why? easy access to information, once people find an opinion they like they'll side with said opinion on future topics.

how boring, what a shit post. wtf am i doing?

 

[TdC]

Can I add that my mum recieved a letter off North Wales police, asking her to explain why she'd driven to Wrexham.

Yep. That's right. They'd got a photo of her number plate from one of their cameras and then found her address and sent her a letter asking her why she'd driven to Wrexham when she lives on the Wirral.

I'm sorry, but what? Unless she drove there with like, 18 OAPs on the front bumper I'm nearly certain that's completely out of their rights o0


I get emails like that from my security department, but if anyone did that to me in the real world they could go eff themselves!

 

[GReaper]

Our government should be upholding our civil liberties and not trying to erode them in every way possible and claiming it's going to protect us.

I simply do not trust them at all with any increased powers, some of the various Acts which have been implemented all in the name of improving the security of the country have been abused. Police using anti terrorism laws against citizens who are obviously not terrorists. Councils abusing RIPA to spy on people instead of it being used for national security. I'm sure the list goes on with powers being abused in ways which the vast majority of people would not want.

There are plenty of reported incidents, I know the media can often go over the top and make a mountain out of a molehill, but the fact is our civil liberties have been slipping away slowly, the powers granted have been abused too much.

It's hardly surprising that there's a large amount of pessimism in this country. As others have said in this thread, our government is elected to serve us - they should be leading by example instead of trying to restrict our rights at every possible moment. Perhaps if people genuinely believed they were living in a democratic country instead of an increasing police state we'd have more reason to be optimistic.

 

[tierk]

Again I will refer a couple of points to my the first part of my previous post, the difference now is that you know about it whereas in the past you never did since things were more secretive.

I don't deny for a second that such legislation gets abused but I'm a person who believes it is the exception and not the rule, the odd few people who've posted the odd example well sorry but I wasn't there and I don't actually know you on much of a personal level so thus such examples only carry so much weight when trying to prove it is the rule.

I keep an eye on such things but you really shouldn't use the last examples and even worse then trying to refer to them as slight exaggerations...it makes your previous comments look a bit weak.

As for being involved in a demonstration, firstly I don't believe they do much and secondly if I was to be involved in one I would accept the possible consequences.

Britain isn't broken in my opinion but neither is it perfect but then as I've said before there isn't a country that is perfect but your view depends on your current situation.

I guess it is true, opinions are like arses.

Sorry Embattle but this entire post is just wrong on so many levels.

1. I have a absolute right as a citizen to demonstrate peacefully. Regardless of what or who i am demonstrating against. There should be no consequences, so long as i am peaceful. Your belief in the futility of demonstrations is neither here or there and to be quite honest demonstrates the problem with people today.

2. On the one hand you say the press is much more free to report on stuff today then ever before and yet in the same breathe you are insinuating that actually no they are just exaggerating the extend of abuse of powers by authorities?

3. In the past it was more secretive and nowhere near as intrusive and therefore acceptable, it didn't infringe on my rights as a citizen. During the Revolution in Iran (1979) both my parents demonstrated peacefully in London without repercussions - well we got screwed by the new government in Iran - as they pictured all the demonstrators. These are actions i expect from a 3rd world dictatorship not in England.

4. As to people making statements broken Britain, i think it has to be understood that it will only get worse and worse and it is a path that started not under Labour but the Conservatives, when they decided in there infinite wisdom that we no longer needed to have an industrial base.

We have been converted into a nation of burger flippers, waiters. The rich just get richer and richer and the poor have to sit on the sidelines and just suck it up.

I know that the usual bunch of people will now jump in here and say it was inevitable that we would lose all our industries as we cannot compete with those pesky Chinese but that is complete bollocks. If the Germans have managed to do it then so could we but the government were not and is not willing to make the necessary commitments to bring this about.

The entire political system is broken with both parties being pretty much exactly the same, not representative of the needs of the people and i bet you come election time if the conservatives win we won't see a single shitty law repealed and we wont see any efforts to work on giving long term solutions to the long term problems of this country.

 

[tierk]

I'm more with DaGaffer on the ID card matter. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a card that proves your ID, it's the database and the extra crap they've added on top of a simple ID card that's the problem.

You cant have a proper ID system without a database to back it up. One is a function of the other. The whole system is stupid, as it is proven to be completely useless against the very people they tell us it is aimed at - Terrorists.

Yes there is something wrong with having an National ID card.

 

[Embattle]

Sorry Embattle but this entire post is just wrong on so many levels.

1. I have a absolute right as a citizen to demonstrate peacefully. Regardless of what or who i am demonstrating against. There should be no consequences, so long as i am peaceful. Your belief in the futility of demonstrations is neither here or there and to be quite honest demonstrates the problem with people today.

2. On the one hand you say the press is much more free to report on stuff today then ever before and yet in the same breathe you are insinuating that actually no they are just exaggerating the extend of abuse of powers by authorities?

3. In the past it was more secretive and nowhere near as intrusive and therefore acceptable, it didn't infringe on my rights as a citizen. During the Revolution in Iran (1979) both my parents demonstrated peacefully in London without repercussions - well we got screwed by the new government in Iran - as they pictured all the demonstrators. These are actions i expect from a 3rd world dictatorship not in England.

4. As to people making statements broken Britain, i think it has to be understood that it will only get worse and worse and it is a path that started not under Labour but the Conservatives, when they decided in there infinite wisdom that we no longer needed to have an industrial base.

We have been converted into a nation of burger flippers, waiters. The rich just get richer and richer and the poor have to sit on the sidelines and just suck it up.

I know that the usual bunch of people will now jump in here and say it was inevitable that we would lose all our industries as we cannot compete with those pesky Chinese but that is complete bollocks. If the Germans have managed to do it then so could we but the government were not and is not willing to make the necessary commitments to bring this about.

The entire political system is broken with both parties being pretty much exactly the same, not representative of the needs of the people and i bet you come election time if the conservatives win we won't see a single shitty law repealed and we wont see any efforts to work on giving long term solutions to the long term problems of this country.

Says the person who uses Traffic Wardens shooting parking offenders as an exaggeration.

1. I never said you didn't, if you want to argue about that feel free. I also said in previous post the simple fact is I neither know you personally nor was I there thus you'll find me some what unwilling to take it as fact unless the other side is able to say something, sorry if that offends you.

2. You seem to be mixing what they have/do with what I believe, but that might of been my fault.

3. Well little I can say since it seems to agree to some extent but I wouldn't go as far in terms of comparing it to a 3rd world dictatorship.

4. It may well do eventually but for now you won't find me screaming from the roof tops about it nor some how thinking it makes the UK broken.

I'm not sure what the industry part has to do with what I said and opens up a large can of worms, what I will say on the subject is I think you'll find the workers in those industries did most the damage.

I should also point out that the comment about the rich getting richer tends to be univeersal when looked at objectively and not from ones personal situation.

I won't disagree with the last comment to some extent, I've made it clear before they aren't as different as people think although not sure that spells the doom of the UK but instead just makes it an uncomfortable situation.