Broken britain

[ST^]

Oh come on! Unless there's been a massive rise in the gay male population that will make fuck all statistical difference (the carpet munchers will get the turkey basters out anyway), and even if it was in the census it still wouldn't gave data you could use for that kind of prediction anyway because trends in the general population (singletons, dinkys) would mask any "gay" effects anyway.

Bringing up circumstantial bollocks is not a good way of making a point.

 

[DaGaffer]

Bringing up circumstantial bollocks is not a good way of making a point.

Neither is claiming a sexuality question can predict future populations. And how is it "circumstantial"?

 

[rynnor]

While we are on the census what about the new questions about who's staying overnight at your house - thats pretty invasive too?

 

[Will]

'kin' 'ell, it was just a suggestion.

 

[Ch3tan]

While we are on the census what about the new questions about who's staying overnight at your house - thats pretty invasive too?

I sense a lot of piss taking with the census if that is the kind of question they are asking.

 

[Zenith.UK]

While we are on the census what about the new questions about who's staying overnight at your house - thats pretty invasive too?

Actually you'll find that is a question that's been in every census since 1851. Visitors and boarders have been categorised that way in every old census that I've seen and I've seen quite a few while doing my family tree.

To those people decrying the census, have you actually read the proposed question sheet?
2009 Rehearsal questionnaire: Office for National Statistics

The only reference to sexuality is the question about your marital status. If you're married or in a civil partnership.
There is a question asking about the effect a disability has on your daily life.
The question about religion is still voluntary. Expect more Jedis.

I can tell you this much about the upcoming census.

• The paper for the forms will be pulped after scanning.
• Those scanned images are locked from public access for 100 years by the 1920 Census Act. You can't even use DPA98 or FOI to get at the data.
• Field personnel will NOT be able to store personally identifiable information on their systems.

As many of you already know, I personally have a bee in my bonnet about ID cards. I will be voting Conservative at the next election for that one reason alone. I will however have no qualms about the census because I've looked at the laws protecting the processes from beginning to end. The sanctions for an individual census worker disclosing personal information from a census can be as much as 2 years imprisonment.
Census data confidentiality and UK law: Office for National Statistics

In response to people disagreeing with DaGaffer, there is far more "silent" surveillance about individuals than Joe Public thinks.
Every Police car has APNR cameras. These camera systems are updated from the databases held by DVLA for MOT, vehicle excise and insurance.
A number of bridges and gantries on Britain's trunk roads have ANPR cameras on them as well. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to link them together in the future to create an average speed camera system.
Every child has (or will soon have) an entry in ContactPoint, a system for tracking the home address of children, the names of their parents, their schooling, their medical records and any related social concerns. Hardly any parent I speak to knows about this.
CCTV cameras on street corners are supposed to be a deterrent to crime, and provide evidence in the event of a crime occuring. They don't exactly do a great job, but they're better than nothing.
Your medical records are being moved from your GP surgery to a national system called SPINE. This is so that medical staff can have access to your medical records in an emergency, but there is also a demographic aspect to the data... which is voluntary, but once again hardly anyone knows about it.

Gahhh... I can rant for Britain on this subject.
There is more broken about Britain than people realise, because the cracks are under the social radar.

 

[rynnor]

I sense a lot of piss taking with the census if that is the kind of question they are asking.

Yes - they seem to be making it into something new - there should be a re-evaluation of the census law if its going to get silly.

Still we could all just tell em to fuck off and not fill it in - its a piddly fine and they couldnt cope if lots of people stopped filling it in.

Pretty sure if you objected to the race/religion/sexuality questions you could rig a defence under human rights act that would tie em up for years in european courts.

 

[rynnor]

Bah - timed out on edit - could fill the form in using pencil and non-block capitals - difficult to argue that you didnt give the info and cant be scanned.

 

[Scouse]

Bringing up circumstantial bollocks is not a good way of making a point.

Neither's avoiding direct questions. Your age has a direct bearing on the validity of your opinions on this, so, how old are you?

Don't get pissy or offended by the question either. If you're young and don't like it, tough shit. I'm making the old "animals in captivity" argument here, because it may apply.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Oh, not to you. You're happy, therefore can't see why anyone else would be?

Good assumption there, when did I say I was happy living in this country?

If I ever were not to live in England, I could consider living in Holland and Switzerland, I don't think I could get on living anywhere else.

 

[Scouse]

Oh, and next census...

For the first time, people will be asked to provide......the names, sex and birth dates of any overnight guests in their homes.

So. Who are you shagging eh?

You get a fine for falsification and prosecuted for failure to return. But no! Never ever ever suggest that Britain's becoming more and more Orwellian.

People who can't see it are the same sort of people that couldn't see that Hitler was burning Jews. Unfortunately, they made up the majority of the German population at the time - but the fact that they were German wasn't the problem - the demographics for head-in-sand-ers are the same the world over.

 

[Scouse]

Good assumption there, when did I say I was happy living in this country?

I thought it was a fair assumption, considering you were taking a contrary stance against my "I'm unhappy here" argument

 

[SilverHood]

Oh, and next census...



So. Who are you shagging eh?

You get a fine for falsification and prosecuted for failure to return. But no! Never ever ever suggest that Britain's becoming more and more Orwellian.

People who can't see it are the same sort of people that couldn't see that Hitler was burning Jews. Unfortunately, they made up the majority of the German population at the time - but the fact that they were German wasn't the problem - the demographics for head-in-sand-ers are the same the world over.

Unfortunately, people get the kind of government they deserve...

 

[nath]

Unfortunately, people get the kind of government they deserve...

Gee, the North Koreans must be utter utter ***** then, eh?

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I thought it was a fair assumption, considering you were taking a contrary stance against my "I'm unhappy here" argument

It's a fairly poor assumption considering this is a discussion forum, or are people only allowed to discuss their own beliefs/feelings?

 

[ST^]

Neither's avoiding direct questions. Your age has a direct bearing on the validity of your opinions on this, so, how old are you?

Don't get pissy or offended by the question either. If you're young and don't like it, tough shit. I'm making the old "animals in captivity" argument here, because it may apply.

I didn't see anyone ask me that but I'm 25, as you'd have seen if you clicked through to my profile ¬_¬

 

[djpringle]

Hmmm the country may well be limping along so to speak but it certainly isn't broken. I can't remember having to bribe police at every oppurtunity, having to pass a manilla envelope under the table to a council official to get something simple done.
A freeish press pushing their own agenda is far better than a press that cannot do anything at all without official permission.
You may think you're living in a police state but the majority of the rest of the world is far far worse and I have yet to live in a country that is actually better than the UK, a quick summary:

Vietnam - seriously corrupt communist state
Singapore - police state that's bordering on a family run dictatorship
South Korea - seriously racist police state
Malaysia - seriously corrupt dodgy democracy (KL isn't particularly Islamist)
Azerbaijan - seriously corrupt police state that is actually a family run dictatorship
Egypt - just started living and working here and I'm banging my head against the wall already trying to get things done

The UK may be frustrating, invasive, incompetently run but at least you don't need a spike shoved down your knob to get married...(avoided because I used an envelope stuffed with cash thankfully)

 

[Dark Orb Choir]

calm down dear, its only a commercial............

 

[SilverHood]

Fair points Pringle, but the UK government has got it wrong: It is there to serve the people, not the other way around.

It's targeting the middle classes with all sorts of bollox legislation, while chav scum run rampant because the public is no longer willing to stand up to bad behavior, not just because they fear for their own safety, but because if they attack and you defend yourself, chances are you'll be the one in trouble.

When the government introduces specific legislation such as anti terror laws, it promised that it would have specific uses, but then it gets used for totally unrelated acts, such as photographing your local post office. It is a dishonest, corrupt (expense scandal, don't get me started!) and incompetent entity, in charge of bloated civil and military institutions that look out for number one first, the public second.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

South Korea has been a democratic society for some time now.

Not that it's without problems, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was 20 years ago. Thankfully.

 

[Embattle]

We all find the expenses scandal annoying but as an example Silver you currently reside in the US, not exactly squeaky clean.

There are always valid issues for being annoyed with ones country but again you can pick certain points out when looking at any country but all are highly situational.

 

[DaGaffer]

You may think you're living in a police state but the majority of the rest of the world is far far worse and I have yet to live in a country that is actually better than the UK, a quick summary:

Vietnam - seriously corrupt communist state
Singapore - police state that's bordering on a family run dictatorship
South Korea - seriously racist police state
Malaysia - seriously corrupt dodgy democracy (KL isn't particularly Islamist)
Azerbaijan - seriously corrupt police state that is actually a family run dictatorship
Egypt - just started living and working here and I'm banging my head against the wall already trying to get things done

I think that if we've reached the point where go "whew, at least we're not as bad as Azerbaijan", then we're truly fucked.

South Korea has been a democratic society for some time now.

Not that it's without problems, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was 20 years ago. Thankfully.

And that's the real point. From a "freedom" perspective, the UK is demonstrably worse for the majority of people, than it was 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago. I didn't want to point it out because I immediately sound like I'm going into old fart mode, but it does feel like the first 30 years of my life we were getting more "free", with a gradual throwing back of small 'c' English conservatism, and more individual liberty, and then for the last 10 years, we've gone off down a weird statist road that no-one was expecting.

 

[djpringle]

Fair points Pringle, but the UK government has got it wrong: It is there to serve the people, not the other way around.

It's targeting the middle classes with all sorts of bollox legislation, while chav scum run rampant because the public is no longer willing to stand up to bad behavior, not just because they fear for their own safety, but because if they attack and you defend yourself, chances are you'll be the one in trouble.

When the government introduces specific legislation such as anti terror laws, it promised that it would have specific uses, but then it gets used for totally unrelated acts, such as photographing your local post office. It is a dishonest, corrupt (expense scandal, don't get me started!) and incompetent entity, in charge of bloated civil and military institutions that look out for number one first, the public second.

Oh I agree, though the expenses 'scandal' is small fry on the corruption scale What I am finding a bit more refreshing these days is the growing sense of discontentment. It's almost as if the general public is finally getting less apathetic, whether or not anything comes of it though is the big thing. We are a nation of expert grumblers remember!

Wazz, you are indeed right regarding Korea but it's a nation that seriously annoys me. It likes to put out this big dynamic wow image but get out of Seoul and it's like a whole other country, I spent 6 months in Ulsan (Hyundai City) and it had its own western ghetto...

 

[djpringle]

I think that if we've reached the point where go "whew, at least we're not as bad as Azerbaijan", then we're truly fucked.



And that's the real point. From a "freedom" perspective, the UK is demonstrably worse for the majority of people, than it was 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago. I didn't want to point it out because I immediately sound like I'm going into old fart mode, but it does feel like the first 30 years of my life we were getting more "free", with a gradual throwing back of small 'c' English conservatism, and more individual liberty, and then for the last 10 years, we've gone off down a weird statist road that no-one was expecting.

I suppose I have a slightly skewed outlook on the UK since I've spent the last 7 years in considerably less 'free' states, that it's almost refreshing to be back and have freedom to go where I want etc a point to note is that I live in an area pretty much chav free and have bugger all cctv around so I probably fit into the minority.

 

[Scouse]

I didn't see anyone ask me that but I'm 25, as you'd have seen if you clicked through to my profile ¬_¬

Q.E.D then I'm afraid old bean. No offence.

You're too young to have had the experience of things turning to shit.

You've only got real experience of living under Labour (as you'd have been 13 the last time the Tories were in power). It's simply not possible for you to have experienced the huge differences in outlook of the two main parties, in terms of how to govern large groups of people.

Maybe you're looking forward to the Tories getting in, hoping that there'll be a real change. Trust me, I've already been through that transition once - and it's nothing but a let-down.

Maybe, if when you were 6 or 7, you started taking more detailed notice of the political and financial goings on than the average adult and continued this from then until now you'd be aware of these changes over time.

Does this last paragraph describe you accurately, or am I being over optimistic?

 

[Scouse]

Vietnam, Singapore, South Korea, Malaysia, Azerbaijan, Egypt

Man, you sure picked some strange places to live there m8

 

[Bugz]

Scouse you grossly underestimate the value of hindsight in comparison to personal experience IMO.

 

[Scouse]

Scouse you grossly underestimate the value of hindsight in comparison to personal experience IMO.

Are you pissed off with what I said because you're only 19?

Sorry, but at your age I didn't have the life experience either. No use crying over it. It's the way life is.

If experience didn't matter we would put the clever 19-year-olds (or even 22 year old graduates) straight into middle management rather than the raft of thick 40 year olds (and clever ones) that are there.

But we don't.

They're not there because they're old - they're there because they're experienced. At 19 you've simply hardly had any.

I suppose I could find a way to sugar coat the above, but I'd rather just say it, in a way that can't be misinterpreted. I value ST^'s input on "broken Britain" and the "nanny state" less, simply because he's not lived long enough to recognise the changes. It doesn't mean I think he's thick....



Edit: Oh, and I think you meant overestimate?

 

[Bugz]

I don't think you really comprehend what I'm saying so I'll leave you to it

 

[Scouse]

I don't think you really comprehend what I'm saying so I'll leave you to it

No no! Pray tell! I'm not above being corrected. I'm old and doddery after all