Politics Brexit (England leaving the UK)

[Raven]

Its one giant gravy train. The sooner it's taken out back and shot the better. When we go (and we will, given the vote) it will spell the beginning of the end for Europe, other countries bigger parties will have no choice but to offer a referendum to their citizens or face losing office. If the UK, France and Germany leave then it might as well cease to exist.

It's such a shame though, the European project could have been great, sadly it has been raped by unelected morons in Brussels.

I was pro-Europe, hoping that change could be made, making it even slightly democratic would be a good start but it seems nobody is interested, so fuck it.

 

[Bodhi]

Move it back to a free trade block and leave the countries to run themselves. I can see why they tried to follow the model of the US, but there are more differences between, say France and Germany, than there are between New York and LA.

 

[DaGaffer]

You're all certifiable if you think the UK will be better off, or even a better country, if you leave the EU. Look at who's running the UK now. Look at the state of the opposition to who's running the UK now. And you think the EU is the problem? Bonkers.

 

[throdgrain]

To be fair Job, our ultimate leader Mr Juncker (who I don't recall voting for) has said as much.

Must admit I'm struggling to see the argument for staying in currently, as I dint feel entirely comfortable being dictated to by a large unelected organisation. But we'll see. I love Europe, can't be doing with the EU in its current guise however. If it had stayed as a Free Trade Area, then I wouldn't have an issue.

Which is the only thing we have ever voted for.

 

[ECA]

You're all certifiable if you think the UK will be better off, or even a better country, if you leave the EU. Look at who's running the UK now. Look at the state of the opposition to who's running the UK now. And you think the EU is the problem? Bonkers.

Yes, there is an argument that the EU is more competent governance than our own leaders, elected by whoever rims murdoch the hardest.

 

[DaGaffer]

Which is the only thing we have ever voted for.

Yeah, because there's no such thing as UK legislation you didn't vote for.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yes, there is an argument that the EU is more competent governance than our own leaders, elected by whoever rims murdoch the hardest.

I don't think they're more competent or even more trustworthy, but they are useful to put a brake on the worst excesses of the right or the left. I'd also feel more upset about their lack of accountability if I was naive enough to think that rocking up to an polling booth once every five years actually meant you got a government that had anything to do with what you actually want, rather than bad choice who doesn't really give a shit about you, or worse choice who doesn't really give a shit about you. So the argument becomes economic self-interest, and anyone who tells you a UK outside the EU will be better off economically is selling you snakeoil.

 

[Ormorof]

Many things the EU does are poorly implemented but the things being campaigned against...

Human rights? Limits on how many hours employers can force you to work? Free trade, freedom of movement (which the UK benefits from hugely)

These are the good things, why would you want to get rid of them?

Even the companies run by the sponsors of the leave campaign are warning of the economic risks

If there is a brexit i reckon the non London regions wont be too happy

Theres huge infrastructure investment in north of england, Scotland, wales and NI by the EU, not to mention the massive investment in academia from EU research grants - think the conservatives are going to match that? Doubt it very much

 

[Raven]

It can come out of the billions we pay to be in the club I imagine.

 

[Ormorof]

Uk net contribution is 4.7 billion per year

Value of uk exports per month to the EU is approx 12 billion...

Seems a reasonable price to keep other economies going so they can buy your goods

 

[Raven]

They will still buy our services (not much of it is goods these days) leaving the EU wont stop that.

 

[DaGaffer]

They will still buy our services (not much of it is goods these days) leaving the EU wont stop that.

Flat out wrong. Financial service will relocate to Frankfurt, and all the offshore manufacturing that is only in the UK because of the EU will eventually go (Nissan, Toyota, Honda, god knows how many defence and aerospace contracts etc. Food processing. Huge numbers of industries). And the red tape for dealing with the EU will remain the same anyway.

The money the UK pays into the EU is trivial compared to the money the UK gets back.

 

[Bodhi]

Flat out wrong. Financial service will relocate to Frankfurt, and all the offshore manufacturing that is only in the UK because of the EU will eventually go (Nissan, Toyota, Honda, god knows how many defence and aerospace contracts etc. Food processing. Huge numbers of industries). And the red tape for dealing with the EU will remain the same anyway.

The money the UK pays into the EU is trivial compared to the money the UK gets back.

That's not really accurate imo, there are plenty of organisations that are based in the UK, not because we are in the EU, but because of our engineering base, and the massive financial incentives to set up RnD here that are nothing to do with the EU. I know that quite a few companies, including Airbus and Toyota, have said Brexit won't affect their plans for the UK. Plus with the amount of money we spend with other EU nations, especially Germany, I really don't think it would be in their best interests to play silly buggers.

But still, good to see Project Fear Mk2 has started in earnest.

 

[DaGaffer]

That's not really accurate imo, there are plenty of organisations that are based in the UK, not because we are in the EU, but because of our engineering base, and the massive financial incentives to set up RnD here that are nothing to do with the EU. I know that quite a few companies, including Airbus and Toyota, have said Brexit won't affect their plans for the UK. Plus with the amount of money we spend with other EU nations, especially Germany, I really don't think it would be in their best interests to play silly buggers.

But still, good to see Project Fear Mk2 has started in earnest.

 

[Raven]

Flat out wrong. Financial service will relocate to Frankfurt, and all the offshore manufacturing that is only in the UK because of the EU will eventually go (Nissan, Toyota, Honda, god knows how many defence and aerospace contracts etc. Food processing. Huge numbers of industries). And the red tape for dealing with the EU will remain the same anyway.

The money the UK pays into the EU is trivial compared to the money the UK gets back.

No they won't, what would be the point?

 

[Ormorof]

That's not really accurate imo, there are plenty of organisations that are based in the UK, not because we are in the EU, but because of our engineering base, and the massive financial incentives to set up RnD here that are nothing to do with the EU. I know that quite a few companies, including Airbus and Toyota, have said Brexit won't affect their plans for the UK. Plus with the amount of money we spend with other EU nations, especially Germany, I really don't think it would be in their best interests to play silly buggers.

But still, good to see Project Fear Mk2 has started in earnest.

Manufacturing in uk wouldnt make sense for likes of Nissan and Toyota if UK is not in EU, they could move thise operations elsewhere and get it done cheaper, Nissan as an examplr has manufacturing bases in Spain and Russia, the european market currently gets 0 cars from their Russian base because its not in the EU...

The R&D might stay for a while but how long can all their non-UK staff stay after brexit?

Would you risk a situation where a pprtion of your staff might get the boot or at best generate craploads of red tape or do you move the whole lot to Paris and save yourself the expense?

 

[DaGaffer]

No they won't, what would be the point?

Economics. Look it up.

 

[Raven]

hmm.

I don't think you understand.

The UK would be in the position to govern itself, they could and would quite happily make it more attractive to remain here, or even move here without worrying about anti-competition bullshit from the EU.

 

[Gwadien]

Manufacturing in uk wouldnt make sense for likes of Nissan and Toyota if UK is not in EU, they could move thise operations elsewhere and get it done cheaper, Nissan as an examplr has manufacturing bases in Spain and Russia, the european market currently gets 0 cars from their Russian base because its not in the EU...

The R&D might stay for a while but how long can all their non-UK staff stay after brexit?

Would you risk a situation where a pprtion of your staff might get the boot or at best generate craploads of red tape or do you move the whole lot to Paris and save yourself the expense?

Isn't Russia a poor example, since you know.. Ukraine?

 

[Bodhi]

Manufacturing in uk wouldnt make sense for likes of Nissan and Toyota if UK is not in EU, they could move thise operations elsewhere and get it done cheaper, Nissan as an examplr has manufacturing bases in Spain and Russia, the european market currently gets 0 cars from their Russian base because its not in the EU...

The R&D might stay for a while but how long can all their non-UK staff stay after brexit?

Would you risk a situation where a pprtion of your staff might get the boot or at best generate craploads of red tape or do you move the whole lot to Paris and save yourself the expense?

You've clearly never recruited in Paris - it costs 3x as much as it does here.

 

[DaGaffer]

hmm.

I don't think you understand.

The UK would be in the position to govern itself, they could and would quite happily make it more attractive to remain here, or even move here without worrying about anti-competition bullshit from the EU.

One of the main levers of the UK's attractiveness for inward investment is seamless access to a giant single market (which it wouldn't have any more), another is a flexible labour market, which, given the key objective of most of the Little Englanders is to pull up the drawbridge, wouldn't exist either.

 

[Raven]

But the objective of the "Little Englanders" (nice try Always good to see that come off the bat straight away from the Pro-side) is irrelevant, they have as much say on economic policy as they do on military spend. I also hardly think Vlad and his 20 brothers coming over to decorate flats for a living makes any difference whatsoever to professionals coming over, that happened before the EU and will happen long after the EU, people will still be able to move across borders.

Also, you do realise we operate quite happily outside of the EU too...right?

You seem to have swallowed the pro-EU scare stories hook, line and sinker.

Frankly, fuck the EU, its got about 10 years left in it before it collapses anyway, better to get out on our own terms.

 

[Ormorof]

Isn't Russia a poor example, since you know.. Ukraine?

The situation has been the same since before sanctions

Even the Estonian car market gets cars cheaper from factories in Spain than from St Petersburgh a few hundred km up the coast

And the UK would be on the wrong side of this trade barrier

 

[Bodhi]

I'll assume you know that quite a lot of what Toyota build in Sunderland gets shipped back to Japan?

 

[Ormorof]

Toyota dont have a plant in sunderland Nissan does and it makes cars for EU market

 

[Fweddy]

I'll assume you know that quite a lot of what Toyota build in Sunderland gets shipped back to Japan?

I wasn't aware Toyota built anything in Sunderland

 

[Bodhi]

Oh yeah Toyota are in Derby. All the Japanese manufacturers kind of blend into one, like their cars.

They do ship all over the world from Derby however, so being part of the EU is hardly a compelling reason for them to stay - which is why they've said they plan on being here for 100 years, EU Member or no.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'll assume you know that quite a lot of what Toyota build in Sunderland gets shipped back to Japan?

One car made in Burnaston goes back to Japan, the Avensis estate (because its not made anywhere else), and it represents a tiny part of their output (back of fag packet calc suggests a few thousand units at most), and isn't a strategic thing at all. 85% of all Burnaston output goes to the EU. From the horses' mouth:
INTERVIEW: Tony Walker eyes growth for Toyota UK manufacturing

The Japanese plants are all in the UK because of the EU. First and foremost. They only set them up in Europe at all to fulfil the EU local content requirements; nothing to do with the UK specifically or the potential for other markets.

 

[Bodhi]

Toyota pledges to stay in UK even if country takes Brexit - FT.com

The horses mouth appears to disagree. Neither do they agree that it would be the end of the financial markets.

 

[Embattle]

I think most people are overstating their own view with articles backing them up, to me I just think many people don't like our own leaders that much and naturally dislike bureaucracy and they certainly don't like the added layer that being in the EU appears to add on top with even more MEPs and bureaucracy.

Companies in general will do what is best for them whether inside or outside the EU.