BNP Win Seat in West Yorkshire

[Will]

Full story here.

What I want to know, and why I've posted here, is are things really so bad in the north of England, that the BNP can win seats, or do you think general voter apathy and lack of options since Labour has distanced itself from its traditional support base of the trade unions and working classes?

I remember all the riots from a few years ago in Oldham, but I thought that tensions had decreased. Turns out I was wrong, and the BNP now hold 5 council seats.

 

[Embattle]

A lot of the BNP winning has as much to do with Labour seemingly failing on one issue which many people are getting annoyed about, asylum seekers.

 

[Will]

Sounds more like The Mail is to blame for giving that impression than anyone else. These seats are in the north of England, most asylum seekers are in the south-east.

Then again, in what way are they failing? The country needs asylum seekers, though maybe they are being housed in the wrong places. Certainly, the Highlands and Islands would benefit hugely from having an injection of younger blood, especially people who want to work and don't get scared by some manual labour.

Asyulm seekers are villanised as people who want to come here and live on the dole, or who are stealing jobs from people born in the UK. Pure bullshit (can you tell I get worked up about these sort of subjects?), designed to sell papers. Think of it like this. You are an Afgan or Kurdish refugee (for example). You speak your own language, and like most people in the world, have picked up a bit of English. So here is your best bet to start a new life. You are keen to work, get some money, send it home to your family, and return there once you are no longer in danger. Or maybe you have brought your family with you.

Either way, I don't blame you for wanting to come to the UK. I think you aren't allowed to work until your application has been processed, but that isn't exactly a reason to vote BNP and deport everyone who isn't white.

 

[Embattle]

News papers often are but it doesn't escape the fact that its still something many people feel strongly about, esp in certain locations such as the North were tensions have been growing over subjects to do with black & white etc.

Asylum seekers are slightly over persecuted by the media but until the Government is seen to be taking control of the situation, and I don't mean stopping all of them. It is more a case of controlling the numbers and who really is an asylum seeker and who isn't....naturally this is also being made worse by fears over terrorism and while this is over hyped, again by the media, it should not be ruled out totally.

The UK, like many developing countries, does have an aging population which as you stated does actually require external people to come and work in these countries, and again it comes down to controlling the situation.

The BNP will most probably gain more seats because people just fail to realise the true nature (evil) of the BNP.

 

[Will]

I touched on it before, but I think part of it is down to voter apathy. Your traditional Labour voter looks at Tony Blair, and New Labour in general, and sees a party which is now (in my opinion) a right-wing party. The Lib-Dems are more left-wing than Labour.

You look at the ballot sheet, run down your choices. Labour - don't like them, Tory - remember Thatcher, Lib-Dem - wasted vote. And so they don't bother to even go to vote, meaning that the more extreme parties do better.

An insteresting side-effect is that voter turnout is far higher than average in areas with a BNP candidate...and they never get a second term.

Party opinions are in the mind of a Labour voter, and not Will's own, who is a Lib-Dem voter, and actually has a Lib-Dem MP.

Anyone else got an opinion, or is it just Embattle and I?

 

[Gumbo]

Voter apathy is a huuuuuge problem.

The last election only told us that 70% of the eligible voting population couldn't be bothered to turn up, not who was best to run our country.

We should follow Australias example where you are required to turn up. You can then vote to abstain, but you have to be there.(or vote to abstain by mail etc)

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Gumbo
Voter apathy is a huuuuuge problem.

The last election only told us that 70% of the eligible voting population couldn't be bothered to turn up, not who was best to run our country.

BNP-controlled seats get a 70% turnout (I guess people really don't like them), rather than the usual 30%. Maybe compulsory voting is a good idea, but what are they going to do, send you to jail for not voting?

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

I don't think that people vote for the BNP necessarily because they agree 100% on their policies. Instead it's down to them being one of the few parties that do actually address subjects that do matter to a certain cross section.

 

[Will]

And this picture really irritates me.

Defend Free Speech, Ban the Anti-Nazi League. Surely there must be some mistake?

 

[Gumbo]

You don't send people to jail for not voting....

You just remove from them all public services, if they can't be bothered to turn out and make a decision, they don't get to enjoy the services that are provided for them. (hehe <---nazi idea eh?)

Remember you could register your vote for no-one, by abstaining. You just have to be there, or send in the form saying that you don't want to vote for anyone.

I'm a firm believer in the 'If you didn't vote, you don't have a right to complain' viewpoint. When people sit there and go on, and on about the state of the country, then you ask them if they voted, and they say no, GNNNNNNHHHHHH!!!!

It's a fucking democracy you twats, if you can't be arsed to vote it's your own faults.

Of course the biggest problem is a genius, such as myself, only gets the same number of votes as the rest of you people.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Will.
Defend Free Speech, Ban the Anti-Nazi League. Surely there must be some mistake?

There is some logic in this, plus a little ironic content on the part of the message (if racists can actually be funny that is), it is an unfortunate side-effect of democracy that sometimes you get a rather nasty person in charge by free and fair election, the ANL seek to remedy this by banning what they see as "racists" from election.

Start banning people from election and you are entering a _very_ sticky arena, after all, who is to decide who can stand and who can't ? The government already had a tough time getting convicted criminals to be banned from election years back, outlawing a political view is a bit more severe.

I'm no fan of far-right politics and I'd like to see it pushed to one side, but the laws on free and fair elections have got many more minority groups into power and in most cases has done us proud, I see no reason to change it for the risk of electing a racist.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Will.
What I want to know, and why I've posted here, is are things really so bad in the north of England, that the BNP can win seats

Can I remind you that one of the first BNP councillers was in fact in a London borough, thankyou bloody northern copycat

In any case they were all resoundly voted out by last year.

 

[Will]

I just don't associate the far-right with ironic humour. I guess I stereotype them as stupid bigots, when a lot of them are probably very clever and persuasive bigots.

And I know Tower Hamlets had the honour of electing the first BNP council member, but I think all 5 of the current ones are north of England.

 

[Teh Fonz!!1]

I live in Blackburn, near an area with a BNP council member. Now I'm far from being racist, going as far as having a best friend as an indian.

The main problem around here is that Jack Straw and the council invite hundreds of asylum seekers here and many of them abuse our town for their own ends. They give real asylum seekers bad names and lots of my family, friends and co-workers are gradually becoming angry with the way they treat us and our home.

The BNP are focusing their efforts on where I live because it's a poor area and most of the moeny being spent here is on new homes for those that don't need them.

I am becoming worried at the state of the BNP popularity but when you live in a town where when americans and british soldiers are killed they have parties and wave iragi flags.

Where your own mother is told she is a white bitch and she should be dead every single day at work. Where their 'peaceful' leaders go out into the center of town and tell people to rise up against the western evil...

It starts pissing people off and makes them wanna do something.

It's sad.

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Gumbo

You just remove from them all public services, if they can't be bothered to turn out and make a decision, they don't get to enjoy the services that are provided for them. (hehe <---nazi idea eh?)

Then why should I pay tax

 

[Gumbo]

Originally posted by Embattle


Then why should I pay tax

It's an extreme example of a measure to make you vote. The point is that if you didn't vote, you'd still have to pay the tax, but you wouldn't get the benefits.

It would never happen anyway, but this illustrates my point about me having the same number of votes as people like Embattle here

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Gumbo


It's an extreme example of a measure to make you vote. The point is that if you didn't vote, you'd still have to pay the tax, but you wouldn't get the benefits.

It is a crap example and one that would work as much as throwing people in Jail.

There is no easy answer, although online voting might help a bit....if they ever get it off the ground.

 

[Damini]

I wasn't going to post, but then I thought sod it. I wrote an article about this subject here

 

[throdgrain]

"The Fonz" here touches on the real reasons for the bnp gain. Its nothing to do with voter apathy. There is no one to represent the avarage man in the street on the subject of immigration. So sure enough people end up voting for loonys like the bnp.
The last thing this country needs atm is illegal immigrants imo.
The politicians are all far too pc, and far too scared to even mention the fact that many of these people are lost into the country never to be seen again. Who are they ? Terrorists ? Only a few have to be in order to see the kind of things that are going on right now.
This is a tiny country, yet we have 56 million people living in it. Its too fucking small. I expect you dont see that up your way Will, but down here its packed with people. I think a lot of people simply dont want any more tbh.
I dont think its necessarily even a skin colour issue for a lot of people. I live in a n area of Crawley that is 40% asian, and its an ok place to live. I have no problem with that at all. I wont do the "my best friend is black" stuff, but you know what I mean. I have no preconcetptions on peoples colour at all. But still, we dont need any more economic migrants with nothing to offer this country.
ps. !2 immigrants from the Sangatte centre were put up in a 4 star hotel in Crawley, for a period of 3 months at a cost £1200 per week. Each. Why do we want these people ? If they came here to embrace out culture it might be another thing, but most dont even bother to learn much English.

 

[Teh Fonz!!1]

Sometimes, when people feel like they are drowning, they'll even cling to the sharks

That's the best line I've seen all day.

 

[Gumbo]

Yup Throd, the BNP arguments and the voter apathy arguments have got a bit mixed up in this thread.

The argument that we need large numbers of people to come into this country to work may be true. However why these large numbers of people are moved to areas such as Great Yarmouth, up the road from me, is puzzling. There is already rampant unemployment in that town, and now there is huge numbers of Eastern European single men in there early twenties, with little or nothing to do. The guesthouse owners don't mind too much, because they now have year round tenants, paid for regular as clockwork by the state. However as the rest of the holiday trade dies in Yarmouth, the outlook for the rest of the community is not good.

It doesn't really affect me, because I live 20 miles from there, but that's still close enough to see it happening first hand, and not have to rely on the questionable reporting in the papers at the moment.

 

[Will]

Throd, the Highlands and Islands are dying for lack of young people who can do manual labour. They all move away to Glasgow/Edinburgh at the first chance they get. The communities up there have reached the size where they can't sustain essential services without government funding.

The problem with asylum seekers isn't the numbers, its the typically Brittish, cack-handed way they are dealt with. The 12 Sangat immigrants will have ended up in the hotel because some moron didn't bother to count the number of beds that were available before he agreed to take them, and then was stuck with them. You can't put them out on the street, so they end up in a hotel.

This country was founded on immigrants. There are very few of us who aren't immigrants. With the aging population, we need the new blood. It isn't obvious yet, but give it 10 years and it will be.

 

[Will]

Just to add, the fact the immigrants end up in the wrong place is not their fault...they don't get a lot of choice in the matter.

 

[throdgrain]

I agree with you on most things Will, but on this we going to have to agree to disagree.
A lot of the recent immigrants seem to have little or no intrest in contributing anything to the country they have decended upon. If theres so much work up in the highlands, send em there, I would say.
Loads of the beggars in London and thereabouts are of Bosnian origin. Some even knocked on my front door the other day begging. And in a very threatening manner too. Luckily I have a large Alsation dog , and they left quite quickly. But when my wife rang the police they didnt give a fuck. What about if they set on the old people who live alone in my street? What happens then ?
Like as not the assailants wouldnt get caught, because like as not they dont even "exist" in this country.
Im afraid I dont believe we need more people in this country either, like I say, if you came and looked around the south east you'd see we are chock full of ppl, and yet they plan to build god only knows how many more houses in the area ,and fill up the last remaining square patch of green there is I expect.
perhaps they should build 20,000 houses in thr highlands, and fill em full of all the refugees, then we'd all be happy

 

[Will]

We live in totally different areas, we see different sides to the issue, thats the way things are.

Half the problem is that it is seen as a council issue, rather than one of central government, and so I think very few immigrants (until recently, when a few were moved to condemed blocks in Glasgow...lucky people) ever moved out of the SE until after processing, which takes years.

 

[Scouse]

Until recently I lived in Bradford for 10 years.

10 years of being told to get out of "their country" when you walk in the wrong part of town.

10 years of my girlfriend getting taunted with "you white fucking bitch, you white fucking bitch..." if she walked down the wrong street. (aside from 3 attempted assaults by asian youths)

10 years of riots - and I don't care if the BNP turn up in a pub and start spouting their crap - it does NOT justify 1500 asian lads turning up (from ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, not just local) to throw firebombs/burn cars (and trap innocent people in buildings before setting light to them).

10 years of my life that I loved Great curry, used to be good beer, cheap and in general quite a tolerant community and good friends of all races/colours/whatevers....


On balance - if you look at the first 3 points above you can see why people vote BNP. These are legitamate and real concerns. They were legitamate and real enough for me to move away from that city (I live in Nottingham now).

I'm not racist and I would never vote BNP - but I can see why some people do - misguided or not.

 

[Will]

That's the sort of things I heard...is it the case in Bradford that some people from both sides have stirred things up, and now no one is prepared to back down?

 

[throdgrain]

Things are different these days Will. Where i live a couple of years ago there were a couple of piised blokes in the queue in front of me in the beer shop.
I heard em say, get this beer , then we'll go out and give them pakis a kicking. Broad daylight this is.
A few days later I hear they have both been put in hospital. Fair enough I think tbh
However it seems to be going the other way now. The other day there was a fight up at the local (white) community centre. Some asian lad has a row with someone in there, comes back with 20 of his m8s to trash the place. This time he wernt so lucky, unluckily for them, but the whole racist abuse bit was done by the attackers, not the people in the community centre. Times have changed a bit.

 

[Will]

I guess I'm blessed (maybe being a minister has its advantages), but I never get any hassle from anyone.

You've summed it up pretty well I think Throd, things have turned around, the abused become the abusers. Just like child beating, and sexual abuse, its the way things are.

Solving the cycle is much more difficult, and I can't see an answer. But most of the kids you are talking about are 3rd generation immigrants, and while the BNP wants to exile them from the country, its a little different from immigration.

So many issues, but only one thread.

 

[throdgrain]

Of course your right Will, its a bit different to fresh immigrants. I have no problem with people who live here and are british , whatever they're skin colour.
Well except bloody gypos obviously ... arrgghh i changed the subject !