BNP may take Burnley...

[Doh_boy]

Ok I cant speak for the UK, but in most european countries cristian dogma's are inforced outside of religious schools. We just dont notice it that much since it has been done for so long.
Most company/school/uni restuarants here in belgium will serve fish every thursday. This is clearly a christian dogma.
As is any x-mas or easter activity any school/company organizes

Shouldn't that be a friday? I'm not so sure now. :s

 

[Driwen]

Of course a choice can be imposed - somebody else's choice, imposed on you

but then it stopped being your choice and it started being somebody else's choice. Which means you didnt have a choice?

So if religion is imposed on someone it isnt a choice for that person (choice would be him having an option to refuse which he cant(well unless he wants to suffer the consequences)).

 

[DaGaffer]

Ok I cant speak for the UK, but in most european countries cristian dogma's are inforced outside of religious schools. We just dont notice it that much since it has been done for so long.
Most company/school/uni restuarants here in belgium will serve fish every thursday. This is clearly a christian dogma.
As is any x-mas or easter activity any school/company organizes

I thought it was Fish on Fridays? Generally speaking Christmas and Easter activities in UK schools are purely voluntary and in the UK, if you don't want to attend religious education classes in state schools because of you or your parents' beliefs, you don't have to. Almost nothing Christian is imposed on state school kids in the UK, other than the fact their holidays are based around the dates of religious festivals (and lets be honest most of these holiday dates are much older than Christianity anyway). And while schools may serve fish on Fridays, these days it'll be alongside the burgers

 

[xane]

Ok I cant speak for the UK, but in most european countries cristian dogma's are inforced outside of religious schools. We just dont notice it that much since it has been done for so long.
Most company/school/uni restuarants here in belgium will serve fish every thursday. This is clearly a christian dogma.
As is any x-mas or easter activity any school/company organizes

The only "Christian" dogma enforced on schools by law is Circular 1/94 that defines the role of assembly, which unfortunately includes its definition as being "broadly Christian", it also stipulates it is entirely voluntary and does not insist that only Christian worship or texts are performed.

Serving fish on a Friday is not a Christian tradition, there is no dietary requirement in any Christian text and it was a practice in existance within Europe before Christianity appeared. If you want to be orthodox about it the actual Christian ruling is not to eat red meat on Fridays during Lent.

Christmas and Easter are predefined Public Holidays, their roots may well be in Christianity but nowdays they are no more religious than the other Public Holidays; May Day, August Bank Holiday, New year, etc. I doubt you'd accuse anyone of forcing you to become socialist/communist simply because you had to take May Day off work !

 

[DaGaffer]

but then it stopped being your choice and it started being somebody else's choice. Which means you didnt have a choice?

So if religion is imposed on someone it isnt a choice for that person (choice would be him having an option to refuse which he cant(well unless he wants to suffer the consequences)).

Which means he still has a choice! Unlike the colour of your skin. Which was the original point, you can always change your religion/cultural views because they're learned behaviours, even if the consequences may be dire. You can't change the colour of your skin.

 

[xane]

I hardly think someone who is prepared to stand for election is going to be the sort of person who is religious simply because of the threat of violence from their peers !

If you oppose an extremist policy that was based on religion it cannot be called "racist".

 

[sibanac]

Shouldn't that be a friday? I'm not so sure now. :s

yeah it is

I had a discusion with a few friends a couple of weeks ago about how many christian things we do in our everyday life.
Its alot I can tell you and you dont realy notice untill you think about it.
(anyway i am getting way offtopic here)

 

[Chilly]

Seems to me as damini pointed out the problem lies not ness. with the BNP itself, but the problems that cause the BNP to thrive, as it does - evidently. There IS a lot utter bollocks that these mysterious PC people say, I find it excruciating when some person or toehr says afro-carribean, i mean fair dos theres nothing wrong with sayign someone is an afro-carribean when they are. Its just that there seems to be some unwritten rule that calling someone Black is not allowed. Hell if thats the fuckign case why not do away with..arse forgotten the godam word....um....adjectives! Yes, adjectives, do away with them. You call people fat/thin/tall/but ugly/top piece of ass etc ... why not white or black? None of the friends i have who belong to various ethnic groups give a toss if you call them black (I am talking about African type skin, not asian here).

I think there is just too much bloody political sensitivity to these issues, in a modern (cough) enlightened society such as ours why should we be restricted in our use fo adjectives, unelss they actually ARE offensive or inflammatory, as some are - none of which would get through the filter even if i tried to write them.

It is a pity there BNP is gaining power, I remember a few years ago when i first heard of them, I was younger then (duh), about 15 i think and I remember thinking that some of their ideas were sound. Then i grew up a bit and, thankfully i saw the light and realised it was all a load of stinkin sheeite they were a-spreading.

Its a pity that we grow up with all this bollocks about race around us.

Remember: babies do not know the difference between a black guy and a white guy, they just see two people, it IS our society that imposes these views on us, voluntary or not.

 

[xane]

I had a discusion with a few friends a couple of weeks ago about how many christian things we do in our everyday life.

But are they actually "Christian" ? It has long been argued that many Christian traditions are adoptions of earlier ones, the example of Friday Fish is a good one, een Easter and Christmas can be put in this category.

Also remember that Christian is a broad concept, do you include things like the traditional Christmas Tree, admittedly its a symbol of Christmas but it was entirely an invention of the victorians, and not part of orthodox religious teaching.

Halal meat, it's preparation and it's consumption, are specifically defined in religious texts, that is a different area altogether.

 

[Insane]

I thought it was Fish on Fridays?

*bah* i now feel the urge for a big bag of chips and a piece of luverly battered cod now.

bastards

 

[RandomBastard]

Parties like the BNP exsist because of the main parties inadequacy to address the issues that affect real people in certain parts of the country.

 

[granny]

The first thing the BNP try to do with "free speech" is try and deny it to other people.

First of all there is no such thing as free speech - we have no right to it and in fact there are numerous laws dedicated specifically to controlling our speech - libel and incitement to violence/racial hatred being the most obvious ones. The idea that we all have a basic civil right of free speech is a complete myth and isn't even true in America where they have a constitution that contains references to it.

Secondly there is no such thing as automatic or inalienable rights. Any rights enjoyed by anyone, anywhere, have been specifically fought for at some point in history by some people. The BNP and others of their ilk use any publicity or forum granted them to attack others, spread lies and generate hatred. They have no right to do this and there are clear laws prohibiting it.

There really is no case to argue here unless you support the BNP in which instance the argument becomes one about racism and fascism rather than about "free speech".

 

[granny]

Real Scenario: a MP states that black on white racism exists, and should be seen as seriously, and as much of a crime, as white on black racism.

Response: This MP is branded a racist by other MPs, said to be stirring up racial hatred, and people demand that he leaves his job.

I mean, what the hell? I fired off some raging letters after that. Of course black on white racism exists, and of course it should be seen as seriously. How is that racist? Statements like that only harm racial relations, not fix them. It creates an underclass of the white community. But the PC group refuse to address these issues, even if a whole community is screaming out to be heard. The BNP isn't scared of being called racist, because they used to embrace that title with pride, so they march straight up to these issues and speak out on them, something else the other parties shy away from. If they are getting the votes, you shouldn't change the voting system. You should address the reason why people are voting for extremist parties. If you look around the world at history of how extreme parties come into power, you find a back drop of repression and depression as the usual breeding ground.

The key thing I think you're missing here Lou is that we live in a society where the state machinery is of white origin predominantly.

The racism that affects people's lives on a massive scale is institutionalised racism - the racism of the police, courts, employers, government etc.

So-called "reverse racism" (black on white) exists, of course but England is a white country with a predominantly white populace with a state machinery and history built on a foundation of white imperialism.

If your situation happened in a black-run country with a black culture & history and a black-run state mechanism then fair enough. Otherwise it's just another story drummed up by The Sun and other comics to try and discredit the ideas of political correctness and distract attention from real issues.

I'm no fan of political correctness myself but for different reasons - my view is that too often what "being PC" means is changing language without changing the underlying discriminatory situations.

 

[throdgrain]

Parties like the BNP exist because of the main parties inadequacy to address the issues that affect real people in certain parts of the country.

This is exactly the correct answer, and its a fucking tradegy, but its true.

 

[yaruar]

Tower Hamlets is a predominately Asian/Muslim population, particularly in the schools, so the council have the bright idea of supplying Halal meat to all children for all school meals. My friend is opposed to Halal meat on the basis of how the animals are slaughtered, and obviously does not subscribe to the religious explainations.

in which case your friend should be vegetarian, halal and kosher meat is killed a lot more humanely than the meat that comes out of most slaughter houses

 

[Deady]

People should be allowed to vote for who they want, but with the guiding hand of someone who actually has a clue about whats good for the country in a broader perspective.

Hitler was voted in by the common people - noone stopped that and then it snowballed.

It takes someone sensible and with some foresight to stop that happening again. Commoners are dumb and hence need a guiding hand with this kind of thing.

 

[Lazarus]

in which case your friend should be vegetarian, halal and kosher meat is killed a lot more humanely than the meat that comes out of most slaughter houses

 

[yaruar]

Have you ever been to a non religious slaughter house?

 

[Lazarus]

Have you ever been to a non religious slaughter house?

you mean where they hang the animals up and cut their throats with a sharp knife and let the blood drain out?

 

[DaGaffer]

The first thing the BNP try to do with "free speech" is try and deny it to other people.

First of all there is no such thing as free speech - we have no right to it and in fact there are numerous laws dedicated specifically to controlling our speech - libel and incitement to violence/racial hatred being the most obvious ones. The idea that we all have a basic civil right of free speech is a complete myth and isn't even true in America where they have a constitution that contains references to it.

Secondly there is no such thing as automatic or inalienable rights. Any rights enjoyed by anyone, anywhere, have been specifically fought for at some point in history by some people. The BNP and others of their ilk use any publicity or forum granted them to attack others, spread lies and generate hatred. They have no right to do this and there are clear laws prohibiting it.

There really is no case to argue here unless you support the BNP in which instance the argument becomes one about racism and fascism rather than about "free speech".

Actually, you're wrong. Under Article 11 of the European Convention of Fundamental Rights: Article 11
Freedom of expression and information

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.
2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected.


Whilst the case law hasn't shaken out yet, the intent is fairly clear.

 

[xane]

Have you ever been to a non religious slaughter house?

Slaughter is slaughter.

FYI:

"Traditional" - animal is led into a separate chamber away from other animals and killed by a single bolt gun shot to the brain.

"Halal" (and "Kosher") - animal is held down (facing Mecca if Halal) and its throat is cut with a sharp knife, the blood must be allowed to drain from the body by natural methods.

Halal/Kosher meat may certainly well be more healthy and "cleaner" (animals are cared for and not allowed to eat their own shit), but humane it is not.

 

[DaGaffer]

The key thing I think you're missing here Lou is that we live in a society where the state machinery is of white origin predominantly.

The racism that affects people's lives on a massive scale is institutionalised racism - the racism of the police, courts, employers, government etc.

So-called "reverse racism" (black on white) exists, of course but England is a white country with a predominantly white populace with a state machinery and history built on a foundation of white imperialism.

If your situation happened in a black-run country with a black culture & history and a black-run state mechanism then fair enough. Otherwise it's just another story drummed up by The Sun and other comics to try and discredit the ideas of political correctness and distract attention from real issues.

I'm no fan of political correctness myself but for different reasons - my view is that too often what "being PC" means is changing language without changing the underlying discriminatory situations.

Without putting words in her mouth, I don't think she's missing the point at all. No one is denying that there is institutional racism in this country, no one is denying that we have "a state machinery and history built on a foundation of white imperialism." (on the other hand I see no reason to apologise for it either). The point is, racism is racism, in any form and should be regarded as such from a legal, political and social perspective. The minute you start making allowances for the racism of one group or other, you've lost - you're into backlash politics and the whole damn thing starts again. This is what's happened in the US with things like quotas, or lower entrace rates for blacks; its a quick fix that may 'help' those who take advantage of such things now, but ultimately slows down real equality.

 

[Doh_boy]

Without putting words in her mouth, I don't think she's missing the point at all. No one is denying that there is institutional racism in this country, no one is denying that we have "a state machinery and history built on a foundation of white imperialism." (on the other hand I see no reason to apologise for it either). The point is, racism is racism, in any form and should be regarded as such from a legal, political and social perspective. The minute you start making allowances for the racism of one group or other, you've lost - you're into backlash politics and the whole damn thing starts again. This is what's happened in the US with things like quotas, or lower entrace rates for blacks; its a quick fix that may 'help' those who take advantage of such things now, but ultimately slows down real equality.

Further to that last point, in the U.S. you get an extra 'Ucas point' for being a 'minority'. This is a dangerous 'stop-gap' because it means that the administration can ignore the problems poor/working class people have in america. The fact is that, for one reason or another, there are more black/hispanic/native americans in the poor/working class bracket. Ergo they get into college less. Rather than saying 'It must be a rascism problem' they should be saying 'We need to improve the standard of education in urban areas and tackle the issue of "living wage"'. Most working class families need the parent(s) to work multiple jobs to get by.

 

[Damini]

The key thing I think you're missing here Lou is that we live in a society where the state machinery is of white origin predominantly.

The racism that affects people's lives on a massive scale is institutionalised racism - the racism of the police, courts, employers, government etc.

So-called "reverse racism" (black on white) exists, of course but England is a white country with a predominantly white populace with a state machinery and history built on a foundation of white imperialism.

If your situation happened in a black-run country with a black culture & history and a black-run state mechanism then fair enough. Otherwise it's just another story drummed up by The Sun and other comics to try and discredit the ideas of political correctness and distract attention from real issues.

I'm no fan of political correctness myself but for different reasons - my view is that too often what "being PC" means is changing language without changing the underlying discriminatory situations.

Gran, I know full well that we live in a predominantly white society, but what I am saying is that actions such as the one I described, and other attempts at creating one rule for us and one for them, just divides people into social categories, and surely that's something at the route of all racism? Oh, it can't be as important, can't be as criminal, because you are white and they are black, and there are more of you than them, and blah blah. Rules should be equal. If you rate a crime on the basis of skin colour of the perpetrator, then that's inherently wrong. I loathe racism, but it's not the sole terrain of the Evil Emperial White Man, and if it's treated as such then you alienate and antagonise a part of the community. If a woman is beaten up on the basis of her skin colour, then that's racism, regardless of whether she's white, brown, yellow or green. Any attempts to classify it otherwise are dangerous and stupid.

This isn't a distraction from political correctness, this is something that should be at the centre of it. People should be judged, condemned, condoned and employed on merit, rather than on skin colour. Political correctness as I see it now is just another tool for oppression of people's rights, it's warped terribly from it's original idealistic source into a monster. If you want to change years of institutional racism, then the way NOT to do it is create seperate rules for seperate races, as human nature means that creating one rule for one and another for another just harbours animosity.

 

[xane]

I actually object to the term "white imperialism".

In the first place, the British Empire was dead generations ago, it is in fact the likes of the BNP that strive to keep that dream alive, and why they are ridiculed for it. It must be a strange day when the very opponents of bigotry drag up the fact that the "empire" is alive and well !

This "white imperialism" has brought more freedom and liberty to people than many other parts of the world, so much so this country is a magnet for those wishing to escape oppressive governments, and this has been the case for many, many years. In fact I'd go as far as to say that British Imperialism was built on a more liberal minded view and that formed the fundemental reason for its success.

If Britain was so "institutionally racist" how was all this immigration allowed to continue for so long ? The figures don't add up, unless a succession of cruel and heartless governments conspired over 50 years to entice guillible people from the old empire so we could beat them up at our leisure once they are inside ?

Or has all this "institutional racism" suddenly sprung up in the last few decades I wonder ? If so what caused us to become a nation of xenophobes so different from past years when we cried out for workers from abroad to come and help our war-ravaged nation ?

I find the charge quite amusing. Consider the parallel discussion about Halal meat, the preparation stipulates that the meat should not be handled by non-Muslims, is that not "institutional racism" ? If you equate Muslims with "race" then surely it works both ways ? Oh, of course it is "religious", so that's okay then. So why then criticise Christmas Holidays, isn't that just as "religious" ?

The hypocrisy does seem to hang heavily, like a ... heavily hanging thing or whatever (damn, losing it now, stay with it xane).

My point is that extremist politics have always been in local councils, and with that I lump in both the bigotry and the religious zealotry, and certainly here in East London the sad thing is they are both allowed to continue, yet any opposition is seen as "racist" !

 

[Doh_boy]

The hypocrisy does seem to hang heavily, like a ... heavily hanging thing or whatever (damn, losing it now, stay with it xane).

Off-Topic I know but xane your turn into Ben Elton/Blackadder kinda thing at this point.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

All this PC bull is really irritating me.
There are several TV shows aimed at, and publicised as "for minority x", black gay whatever.
I'm white and hetero, can I have a programme too? Can I bollocks. The majority of shows "feature" white heteros, but are not marketed as such or aimed exclusively at them. If they were minority x would go crazy.
I heard some arab women on tele the other night, "this country is really bad for whatever", so leave then.
This is a democracy, if peeps want to vote BNP it's their RIGHT to do so. (I would not).
If they do vote BNP they have a reason, Burnley for those who have never been is like visiting Delhi, whites are (for the most part) the minority there.

Why do we have to be "nice" to people because they are a minority?

*gets flame retardent suit out of closet*

 

[Scouse]

Which means he still has a choice! Unlike the colour of your skin. Which was the original point, you can always change your religion/cultural views because they're learned behaviours, even if the consequences may be dire. You can't change the colour of your skin.

FSS. Getting pissed off with you here.

THERE'S NO CHOICE IF YOU MAY DIE FOR IT.


Quick lookup on dictionary.com:

Choice implies broadly the freedom to choose from a set

If you're under threat of death/brutalisation/being ostracized then you've no freedom and no choice.

Geddit

 

[DaGaffer]

Geddit

No. There's ALWAYS a choice. You may die for it. So what? People have done just that. It's still a choice. You were arguing that religion is the same as colour and it just isn't.

 

[Will]

Agree to disagree, lads.