BNP may take Burnley...

Discussion in 'The Front Room' started by Scouse, Jan 20, 2004.

  1. Scouse

    Scouse Mountain Bike Pedant FH Subscriber

    Have a quick gander at this bijou story over at the BBC...

    Now. I'm not a supporter of the BNP but:

    As the BNP currently have to satisfy the exact same requirements to win seats as other parties - do you not think it's massively unfair to penalise them in the way they suggest?

    I hope they don't win any seats - but voting is voting - and if people want to vote BNP they've got a right to do so and they've got a right to have their views represented - no matter how ill-informed and just plain fucked-up they are.
  2. Doh_boy

    Doh_boy Part of the furniture

    Isn't that a basic civil right? As unpalettable as it is, everyone is allowed their right to speak/have a voice. If we stop them we're as bad as they are.


    After reading the article the reasons for pushing PR are dubious BUT I'm a fan of it and the argument proffered I agree with. I've not looked into PR at all so this is basically an uninformed opinion.
  3. Scouse

    Scouse Mountain Bike Pedant FH Subscriber

    Well you'd think so........ :(
  4. DaGaffer

    DaGaffer Down With That Sorta Thing

    Hmm, if we're going to go down the road of making unpleasent political parties illegal, I think we should be consulted rather than just fiddle the electoral system. Interesting facts in the article in the light of the present government's 'electoral strength';

    "At present the votes of many people who oppose racism are wasted on losing candidates, but STV would allow those votes to be transferred to other candidates opposed to extremism. Using STV the BNP would only win those seats which its electoral strength justifies,"

    "If people vote the same way this year, the BNP will win a further six seats and in the following election we could see the BNP holding 100% of the seats in these wards with only a third of the vote."

    So its OK to change the voting system because you don't like their unpleasant views? Interesting definition of a free country...

    FYI...Labour's percentage of the vote at the last General Election: 42%. Labour's percentage of the actual electorate: 24.15%
  5. Gef

    Gef Fledgling Freddie

    That guy in the photo 'Luke Smith' look like he came right off ;)
  6. Mellow

    Mellow Loyal Freddie

    lol, he does doesn't he. I bet he used to work for McDonalds before he joined the BNP.
  7. ScoobyDoo{KEA}

    ScoobyDoo{KEA} Fledgling Freddie

    he actually works for british gas,and yes i do know him sort of.i live in burnley and i can promise you now that the bnp will be the majority in the council in a few years.i'm no supporter of theirs but they already have a few seats and their popularity in the district is growing.
  8. Stazbumpa

    Stazbumpa Fledgling Freddie

    Sounds like Burnley's a pretty fucked up place to be in then.
  9. Frizz

    Frizz Can't get enough of FH

    Nuke it!
  10. fatbusinessman

    fatbusinessman Fledgling Freddie

    There are two arguments here, both of which need considering:

    First off, there's the whole 'free speech' issue. Twats though the BNP may be, they have a right to an opinion, and they have a right to voice said opinion. If people are dumb enough to vote for them, then something is deeply wrong with Burnley, but we can't just step in and say "No, you can't elect them, we don't like them".


    Under new laws, Incitement to Racial Hatred is a crime. I don't know whether what the BNP are doing conforms with the legal definition, but it sounds dodgy at best. If saying what they're saying is illegal, then the government has not only a right but a duty to shut them up.
  11. Scooba da Bass

    Scooba da Bass Fledgling Freddie

    I have absolutely no doubt that the BNP are 100% legal with what they are saying. After years of being a loony party they've 'smartened up' and have a team of lawyers and spin doctors making sure nothing 'too' extreme comes from them anymore.
  12. SawTooTH

    SawTooTH One of Freddy's beloved

    still dont see how this will turn it around in Burnley as more people are voting for the BNP there.
  13. Cyfr

    Cyfr Banned

    As I see it.. if BNP get in then something is going wrong which makes the people who voted them want change, so what are the current people doing wrong?..
  14. Xtro

    Xtro One of Freddy's beloved

    Nothing apart from wearing jackboots, goosestepping down to the pub and shouting "Burnley Uber Alles".
  15. Will

    Will /bin/su Staff member Moderator

    The article was trying to point out that, while the BNP is only polling a thrid of the vote, it could end up leading the council. Of course, only a PR system can save us, says the Electoral Reform Society...

    Living in a country with a partial PR system, I have to say that, in practice, PR sucks. List MSPs are a joke, as they answer to the party, rather than to their constituency. They also seem to be rather underworked.

    As for the BNP issue...the people who vote for them know exactly what they are voting for. It isn't a case of slick talk tricking them into ticking BNP. When people don't have much in their lives, they need something to blame, and immigrants as seen as getting money that could go to "local people" instead. Everyone needs someone to look down on.

    So the country should take a look at this, and try to deal with the reasons people vote BNP, rather than take away their right to vote BNP.
  16. xane

    xane Fledgling Freddie

    The mainstream political parties have to take their share of the blame, most of them field uncompromising candidates aimed at getting minority votes, and that's exactly what they get; a minority vote that doesn't get them elected.

    I dispise bigotry, but that sad fact is that it exists in many forms within politics, and I am ashamed to say it but at least the BNP pin their bigoted political colours proudly on their chest and don't hide behind a mainstream party only to suddenly come out as an extremist once they've been elected.

    We've had BNP councillors here in East London, they soon get voted out when people quickly realise they are useless in their actual job, regardless of their political views.
  17. Damini

    Damini Part of the furniture

    The BNP are only gaining power because of every other party's complete refusal to address the issues due to fear of being seen as politically incorrect.

    Real Scenario: a MP states that black on white racism exists, and should be seen as seriously, and as much of a crime, as white on black racism.

    Response: This MP is branded a racist by other MPs, said to be stirring up racial hatred, and people demand that he leaves his job.

    I mean, what the hell? I fired off some raging letters after that. Of course black on white racism exists, and of course it should be seen as seriously. How is that racist? Statements like that only harm racial relations, not fix them. It creates an underclass of the white community. But the PC group refuse to address these issues, even if a whole community is screaming out to be heard. The BNP isn't scared of being called racist, because they used to embrace that title with pride, so they march straight up to these issues and speak out on them, something else the other parties shy away from. If they are getting the votes, you shouldn't change the voting system. You should address the reason why people are voting for extremist parties. If you look around the world at history of how extreme parties come into power, you find a back drop of repression and depression as the usual breeding ground.

    These situations exist. Rightly or wrongly, people feel upset about immigration rights. People worry about intergrating a high percentage of usually single young men into their community. People feel aggrieved at having to work long hours and scrimp by when they suspect that immigrants get given a free ride (the laws to prevent immigrants working AKA "stealing jobs" had backfired, creating an impression of the parasitic immigrant). These opinions exist, and if you suppress people's rights to air these opinions (no matter how much they offend the PC brigade) these opinions don't vanish, they just boil and boil until someone like the BNP gives them a way to vent. Effectively, what political correctness is doing is repressing the voice of a community, and history shows that situations like this are breeding grounds for extremism.

    Sod changing the voting system. Someone needs to take steps to change the PC brigade, because their influence is inadvertently fuelling racism. If middle ground parties could and would address these issues, then people would vote for them.

    P.S. Yes, the BNP are far too savvy these days to be seen as overtly racist, ad even the young BNP site has caught up. When I first looked at it, it had a section of "articles" that were ridiculously racist - this taken from an essay about why Europeans are great, and what would happen if we hadn't existed...And I quote "Meet Witch-doctor Matunbo Lutamba Kinga" Clarence said. He never became
    Reverend Martin Luther King because there were no universities or seminaries
    built to educate him. Europeans weren't there to create such opportunities.
    But he did become the tribe's spiritual leader. He specialises in casting
    evil spells. Perhaps he can help you?"

    Eviiiiil spells. Eviiiiiiil!

    P.P.S. Yes, it's a bit of a tyrade but this stuff really galls me.
  18. Scouse

    Scouse Mountain Bike Pedant FH Subscriber

    Spot on Damini.

    So. When you don't like something you change the law to make it illegal eh?
  19. Trem

    Trem That there, that's not me. Moderator

    As usual, Damini has hit the nail on the head. Excellent post Lou.
  20. fatgit

    fatgit Loyal Freddie

    The reason the BNP do well in Burnley is that they play on people's ignorances, and the fact that the main parties cannot be arsed to stand against labour.

    If you want to vote here, but don't want to vote Labour, then in most wards, the only opposition is - you guessed it - the BNP.
    The ward I live in, at the last local elections had one official labour, one unofficial labour and one socialist, and one BNP - no Lib Dem or Conservatives stood, luckily the BNP didn't get the seat, but it was damned close.

    Burnley has some really deprived areas, which get a lot of cash funnelled into them, but the BNP play on the fact that certain areas are predominately Asian (we dont have a large black/afro caribbean community here), but ignore the fact that those same area's have larger "white" (I hate that term) communities living there, and make it look as though all the government & council funding is going to Asian's only, which is total crap.

    Most of the people that vote BNP are fed a diet of BS from both the BNP & the media, to the point they start to believe the BNP propaganda.

    The BNP are clever. They know the jackboots & skinhead approach of the NF wont work - you start kicking 7 shades of smelly stuff out of "non-whites" and you lose people's support. Put on a suit, get a respectable job, and talk with the appearance of intelligence, and people listen.
    What they dont tell you is how anyone that isn't 7th generation British should be sent "home" - including most of their damned voters.
    I actually know one asian gentleman that voted BNP to "get the Asylum seekers out" - he doesn't believe me when I say that if the BNP ever got into power, he'd be joining them, as he's only 2nd generation. He thinks that because he was born here, everything's fine in their eyes :/
    In addition, the BNP are the only party to canvass properly. They knock on almost every door and talk to people - in 10 years in Burnley, I have NEVER seen a candidate canvassing, just the usual paperspam through the door - other than the BNP tossers,

    So, between VERY cleverly worded propaganda, ignorance and the fact that Labour have such a stranglehold here and the other parties are too afraid to lose their deposits and stand, the BNP get more and more votes.

    Add into that that people are generally NOT voting, it doesn't take many people to swing it one way or another.
    Labour voters don't vote because they know that Labour will win overall here, non-labour don't vote either because they think labour will win anyway, or there's no one BUT labour to vote for. The BNP don't have to persuade many people to vote to win a seat.

    It's about time ALL the parties in Burnley got off their arses and made a stand. They need to put their Candidates where their mouths are, or BNP may get their first ever Council.

    Sorry if some of that seems disjointed, I just get pretty worked up over the issue, and feel ashamed to live in Burnley at times.
  21. xane

    xane Fledgling Freddie

    Extremist views always exist, the problem is many people wont admit to it. However, they exist in various forms, take this example:

    A friend of mine, who you'd describe as "white", sends her sons to a local school in Tower Hamlets (East London). The school is a Church School and as a consequence has mainly "white" pupils.

    Tower Hamlets is a predominately Asian/Muslim population, particularly in the schools, so the council have the bright idea of supplying Halal meat to all children for all school meals. My friend is opposed to Halal meat on the basis of how the animals are slaughtered, and obviously does not subscribe to the religious explainations.

    Remember, religion is a lifestyle choice, it is not enforced upon you, neither are you stuck with it at birth, especially in a liberal country like Britain, however, it has become a "racist" issue, the undertones of which were present in the recent Kilroy debacle.

    The fact is, an "extremist" element in Tower Hamlets council have enforced their minority religious views on the entire school population in the borough.

    Now the BNP in Tower Hamlets would typically announce they would do away with this policy, this would be decried as "racist", when it is no such thing, and no-one is going to point out that although the BNP might have extremist views, so too have the existing council who put up the school meal policy in the first place.
  22. DaGaffer

    DaGaffer Down With That Sorta Thing

    Ah, Tower Hamlets - the most Stalinist/PC council in the country; my brother worked there as a housing officer many moons ago (late eighties), and told some pretty horrific tales about their indoctrination policies; you had sessions where you were told in no uncertain terms that if you were white and male, you were racist, you were sexist, and basically that you were scum, and if you argued about it you were in big trouble. Didn't go down well with my very left wing, 'coal not dole' badge wearing brother. Looks like nothing much has changed.
  23. Scouse

    Scouse Mountain Bike Pedant FH Subscriber

    Agree with most of what you say - but this sentence without qualification can be construed as stretching it a bit.

    Religion is enforced on many people in this country well into their adult lives. You're indoctrinated as a child and made to fear any change from then on - and taught not to question it.

    Some of those who do are still killed.

    Bradford STILL does the best curries of anywhere in the country tho :)
  24. DaGaffer

    DaGaffer Down With That Sorta Thing

    Semantics. For all intents and purposes religion is a choice, even if imposed; the colour of your skin (unless you're Michael Jackson :) ) is not.

    What Tower Hamlets are doing is imposing a particular religious dogma on a whole population - can you imagine the outcry if a Christian dogma was forced on a whole school population (outside of 'religious' schools)? Hell, there would be an outcry these days if a Christian dogma was forced on a nominally Christian school population!

    Personally I'd ban all religious activity in the school system outside of specific RE lessons; if you have a particular food restriction or rule system you have to follow, fine, but you should have to make your own arrangements with no state help OR hinderance. Its the only fair way.
  25. Doh_boy

    Doh_boy Part of the furniture

    I think the problem stemmed from the fact that most popular and successful (results wise) were RC schools. So you can't argue against religion being important in a catholic school. But what happened is that people got their children baptised just to get into the local catholic school. It gets a bit bizarre when a child asks for a day off for eid in a catholic school. It happened when I went through primary school so I don't doubt it's happening now. People then assumed that they had the right to use the school irrespective of religion. I remember seeing a TV news article about muslim schools and how they're very successful, I don't see it going down the same route though.
  26. Scouse

    Scouse Mountain Bike Pedant FH Subscriber

    Bollocks is that Semantics. The point is relevent in itself.

    If the choice is live your life a certain way or get beaten or even killed than that's no choice at all. Look at your own sentence - how can a choice be imposed??

    You'd think that in Britain it wouldn't be a widespread problem - but it's a massive problem for the Asian communities in this country.

    Either way tho - it's getting off topic ;)
  27. xane

    xane Fledgling Freddie

    The irony here is that imposing a school dietary policy based on religion is not considered extremist, yet removing the same policy is considered extremist, even "racist" !
  28. DaGaffer

    DaGaffer Down With That Sorta Thing

    Of course a choice can be imposed - somebody else's choice, imposed on you :)
  29. DaGaffer

    DaGaffer Down With That Sorta Thing

    And that's what's so annoying - to the PC brigade, it's always "racist" when it has nothing to do with race! Your Religion is NOT your race ffs.
  30. sibanac

    sibanac Fledgling Freddie

    Ok I cant speak for the UK, but in most european countries cristian dogma's are inforced outside of religious schools. We just dont notice it that much since it has been done for so long.
    Most company/school/uni restuarants here in belgium will serve fish every thursday. This is clearly a christian dogma.
    As is any x-mas or easter activity any school/company organizes

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