Bill Gates - Buy the Rainforests

[Wij]

Cama is my environmental hero

(P.S. Tree-huggers will obviously campaign against GM products cos "they just don't feel right to me somehow" )

 

[throdgrain]

Nah things still go wrong camatoz. I cant measure anything with a given set of statistics, cos i dont have any, but all sorts of stuff happen to people. Ask the people of Ruwanda
When they did liveaid I think people sort of thought that would be an end to world poverty and hunger. It just wasnt though really. I dont want to sound completely heartless but of lot of the countries in question simply dont have the resources to support the population they have.
However on relection maybe you're talking on a purely green scale, I was meaning really how peoples lives had changed over the last 20 years. Not a lot really.

 

[mr.Blacky]

isn't the maximum population put down even further? thought i read something about that.
Also dont forget the fact that in some countries there will be alot more deaths caus of AIDS, looking at Sri Lanka, Thailand (50% of the army draft had hiv) and Africa (southern part)

About future movies about 2000 lol well come on you didn't take that serious did you?

 

[throdgrain]

Mate we DID thats just the thing...
Monorails !!

 

[xane]

I dont want to sound completely heartless but of lot of the countries in question simply dont have the resources to support the population they have.

(sorry to para-quote you).

People really are suckers for these f*cking myths aren't they ? There is no evidence whatsoever that certain countries cannot support themselves economically. Many "third-world" countries contain large amounts of untapped mineral resource, a good portion of it unaccessible because of "political and social unrest", most of which is caused by poor living conditions and lack of education.

No country in the world needs to be penniless - fact.

Take a country like Belgium, what fantastic hidden resources does that country offer the world, besides beer-sodden fat Belgians ? How does a country exist with NO material wealth at all ? Think about it ...

Also dont forget the fact that in some countries there will be alot more deaths caus of AIDS, looking at Sri Lanka, Thailand (50% of the army draft had hiv) and Africa (southern part)

The figures account for that, in fact it has been recognised that HIV puts a massive dent in Africa's population. But the vast amount of the world exists in India and China, together taking up nearly 1/3 of the people in the world and still growing, they don't have an HIV problem because they have the necessary social controls to prevent widespread infection (of any disease in fact).

Ironically, constant argument _against_ the "global warming" campaign is that the money could be far better spent fighting AIDS in Africa, and would save a lot more lives.

 

[mr.Blacky]

ahhhhh Cama said something wrong.
Belgium they had a large reserve of coal (think thats gone) and made steel, though they made mistakes in having lots of small ones that couldn't compete with the world and were partly bought by Hoogovens that now in Corus is. Also lets not forget the fortunes they took out of Congo!!! The only nation that was worse as a colonial power was Portugal.
India has a large problem but they also had to lower their expected population in 2050.
Personaly I have no problem against the global warming atitude caus the reason for the "rises" is still polution, and polution also causes diseases. Also saying giving it fight aids is also not that smart considering the attitude of the leaders/presidents of the countries in southern Africa. Mugabe Mbeki and others are not very interested in the problem. So that would be a waist of money

 

[xane]

I did actually say what Belgium offers the world, whilst it may be true Belgium is self-sufficient in coal, it exists as a first-world country only by exploiting the mineral resources of others, which was my point to think about.

Since the middle east countries took control of their own oil supplies, they became richer and more prosperous. Whilst many people in the middle east risk having their limbs religiously cut off by the authorities, they at least all have clean drinking water, something 1/6 of the world does not have, and they have enough sustainable food, their lives are measurably better than the starving in Africa.

I understand the point about problem leaders like Mugabe and such, but I think you'll find HIV is largely a problem in "rural" Africa where tribal customs and lack of medical education and authority cannot prevent rapid infection. AIDS/HIV is a social disease, it is easy to stop epidemics by simple isolation of the infection (however draconian that may be) and ensure basic hygene is adhered to in problem areas.

In fact, if people like Mugabe really did control their respective countries like they think they do, then AIDS could be controlled too, but they don't. Ironically, the problem is not that mad leaders exist, but lack of them, the problem is far worse in "anarchic" countries like Somalia and Angola.

Pollution causes diseases - true, but dirty water causes a lot more disease, many Africans would probably pray to be poisoned by pollution as long as they had clean water to drink.

We can argue till were blue in the face over whether global warming is bad or not, no-one doubts the consequences but there are actual benefits from a global rise in temperature, i.e. a longer crop cycle (more food) and less deaths from hypothermia.

The fact is that many world problems exist that (a) kill LOTS of people, (b) have ready solutions and (c) can lead to a better environment long-term, we really need to refocus.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Originally posted by camazotz
I understand the point about problem leaders like Mugabe and such, but I think you'll find HIV is largely a problem in "rural" Africa where tribal customs and lack of medical education and authority cannot prevent rapid infection. AIDS/HIV is a social disease, it is easy to stop epidemics by simple isolation of the infection (however draconian that may be) and ensure basic hygene is adhered to in problem areas.

to be honest you are mistaken the main problem for most African states is that the higher educated people are more infected with HIV mainly because they are being bought through women. In 10 years acording to some analyst some countries wont have a decent government (well tbh even less then they have now)

 

[Sar]

Originally posted by stazbumpa


Don't bet on it.

1969 and man allegedly walks on the moon (no conspiracy for or against arguments please). 33 years later and how much further have we advanced in this respect? Fucking nowhere.
So what was the point in going in the first place, if indeed they managed it at all? Has mankind advanced at all?
Is there a moon base with a big fuck off telescope on it to help us explore further into the cosmos?

Answers on a postcard please.

Yes, maybe you've heard of the Hubble Space Telescope? No?

Also there's a large ground based in(ter)ferometer has been put into action recently, with a space based one due to be put into operation sometime in the next 5 years.

Additionally there is a manned Mars expedition planned for within the next 15-20 years, and that's really as far as we can go in the solar system - Venus is completely inhospitable (Surface tempratures of 400+ and pressures equivalent to 130 atmospheres), Mercury is worthless as it's basically a baked ball of rock, and the rest are all Gas Giants.

The only other "world" worth making an expedition to is Titan, and a probe is due to land there in 2 years in order to discover 2 things:

1) If there's an ocean below the icey surface that covers the entire moon

2) If it's capable of supporting any life.

Beyond that and you're talking interstellar travel, which isn't feasible until we develop some sort of warp engine or reliable stasis system. And that's a 150+ years away at best.

 

[throdgrain]

I agree with staz really, in the seventies when i was at school we really did think a Mars trip was next, then colonisation of the moon, all that stuff. What has actually happened is fuck all in comparison. As I said earlier, Im quite dissappointed really .I'll be old as the bloody hills before anything really happens, if then.
Oh well at least I got badgers to fall back on ...

 

[xenon2000]

There's this thing you might have heard about in the past few decades or so called the internet, yeah? Would someone care to explain how this invention is less beneficial and indeed 'fuck all in comparison' to sending a bunch of spacesuits to Mars for a day trip?

 

[mr.Blacky]

Well I am going partly with Sar but he is forgetten a few things mainly the moons of Saturn and the astroide belt.
Titan doesnt have an ocean, the funy thing is that the atmosphere freezes and unfreezes so it will never be colonized.
Ah and Throd there are more badgers around nowadays and they are saver so there is some improvement.
Internet is important but sending people to mars to exploit that wouldn't be bad too.
Venus could be terraformed but that would take 500+ years (with curent/near future tech level) Mars would be much faster.
Saying that inventions are 150+ years away is weird noone can say that it really depends on the level of interest human kind is going to give space

 

[Stazbumpa]

Fuck all has changed since these supposedly monumental events and fuck all will change for a long time to come. More than 30 years has passed and we gone absolutely nowhere.

I'm not on about fucking colonising other planets or anything daft like that either. We got to sort this one out before we run riot on any others.

The internet was born out of fear of war, may I remind you, and to be honest its not the most amazing thing on the planet anyway. The wrong people are in charge of it (in this country at least) and apart from staying in contact with people via email, its too fucking unreliable and expensive to be utilised to its fullest capabilities.

What I find interesting though, is the innacceptance of what human beings are like. We are the cruelest and most violent species on this planet, mostly to each other, and as long as there is money and the urge to gain (or greed, in other words) and a little thing called organised religion, then we will continue to be so.

Take off the rose tinted specs for a minute and see the world for what it is: dark, cruel, violent and greedy.

 

[bodhi]

Sar, many good point except one factual inaccuracy. It's Europa, one of Jupiter's moons they're looking at, not Titan. Titan was the one in Red Dwarf

staz, how about you put on some rose tinted specs and stop being such a miserable cunt eh?

 

[mr.Blacky]

dang had the wrong planet.
also who knows what will be seen as monumental.
for the rest have a beer Sar

 

[Cod]

Has everyone forgot about the space race? I wasn't too good with History at school but i was taught that in the 60's Russia and American put millions into space technology. Basically it was one of the major things they both did. The space race died and so did the funding for it as well as interest. The reason not alots happend in the past 20 odd years is because its not the highest priority on any countries list.

 

[throdgrain]

Originally posted by xenon2000
There's this thing you might have heard about in the past few decades or so called the internet, yeah? Would someone care to explain how this invention is less beneficial and indeed 'fuck all in comparison' to sending a bunch of spacesuits to Mars for a day trip?

The internet is a fucking toy pal. Oh and an excuse for a lot of people to make a living I suppose. How does it benefit the planet or the human race ? It doesnt.
xenon sometimes you can be such a dick

 

[mr.Blacky]

internet doesn't improve the planet but it does help humans caus it spreads knowlege (though it doesn't help my spelling....that damn wine)

 

[Hashmonster]

Originally posted by stazbumpa
Take off the rose tinted specs for a minute and see the world for what it is: dark, cruel, violent and greedy.

feck staz, u definately see the world different to me - course shit happens but that statement i just plainly disagree with.

 

[xenon2000]

Throdgrain: You're taking the view of the internet in quite a narrow scope, aren't you? It seems like you've limited your knowledge of the medium to a bunch of sites you surf inside a browser. Consider the huge increase in ease of global communication, spreading of information, education rescources, financial utilities and commerce, and try to imagine what life would be like if the whole thing never existed.

Earth's future looks to be skewed right over towards technology rather than ecology anyway. If you consider such a large development as a mere toy, then there isn't much point in me arguing any more.

Lets just live our lives and die, eh?. Unless anyone can make a difference, there's no point in worrying about the future after our lives. The concept of eternity gives me violent nausea and I'd rather stop now.

 

[Wij]

Eternity may seem a little daunting but I'd like to live a bit longer than 80 years

 

[PR.]

*tries to imagine life without the internet*

arghhh no its 'orrible!

8hours a day watching tele

No forums, no faceless arguements, almost non-existant online gaming, no online shopping

*weeeps*

 

[Wij]

Aye, most of us would have to speak face to face with ppl if the internet didn't exist.

*shudder*

 

[Sar]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Sar, many good point except one factual inaccuracy. It's Europa, one of Jupiter's moons they're looking at, not Titan. Titan was the one in Red Dwarf

Lol. No I'm right. It is Titan (moon of Saturn) that the probe is going to. The probe is the Cassini-Huygens probe, and it's due to land on Titan on July 1st 2004.

Titan is thought to have a ethan/methane ocean below the ice-covered surface, and as such may be a pre-biotic state resembling early earth conditions.

And Titan does have an atmosphere btw, a thick Nitrogen atmosphere as it happens.

 

[Wij]

I thought the possibility of oceans under the surface of Europa was supposed to be the best possibility for life outside Earth in our Solar System. Of course this is only a vague memory which may be wrong. Or a dream

 

[Stazbumpa]

Originally posted by Hashmonster


feck staz, u definately see the world different to me - course shit happens but that statement i just plainly disagree with.

Read a newspaper. Turn on the TV and watch the news for once. Take a holiday in what was Yugoslavia. Go to Liverpool city center and announce that you support Man U. Have a look at the Middle East. Go for a walk in Brixton at night.

Tell me I'm wrong, please.



I know what the world is like, but I try and prevent it from affecting my corner of it.

 

[throdgrain]

Xenon. At the time the conversation was a bout how the way the world had changed since the seventies, compared to how the people then thought it would have changed.
The internet is a means of communication, a very good one, but thats all. It hasnt cured cancer. It hasnt fixed third world poverty.It certainly hasnt built any monorails
I really think if you read other peoples posts a bit more carefully you could possibly respond to what people are actually talking about, rather than just what you want to say. Also if you said it in a more polite way you may also find that people like you a bit better.

 

[Hashmonster]

Originally posted by stazbumpa


Read a newspaper. Turn on the TV and watch the news for once. Take a holiday in what was Yugoslavia. Go to Liverpool city center and announce that you support Man U. Have a look at the Middle East. Go for a walk in Brixton at night.

Tell me I'm wrong, please.



I know what the world is like, but I try and prevent it from affecting my corner of it.

me living in croydon for all of my life does show me that things can be shit, crime etc... but i refuse to see JUST that side of life - your corner of the world i guess, everyone has their own perspective

 

[xenon2000]

Originally posted by throdgrain
Xenon. At the time the conversation was a bout how the way the world had changed since the seventies, compared to how the people then thought it would have changed.
The internet is a means of communication, a very good one, but thats all. It hasnt cured cancer. It hasnt fixed third world poverty.It certainly hasnt built any monorails
I really think if you read other peoples posts a bit more carefully you could possibly respond to what people are actually talking about, rather than just what you want to say. Also if you said it in a more polite way you may also find that people like you a bit better.

Just giving my opinion. I wouldn't see it as 'impolite' when putting it next to most other posters here.
It's alright though, I recognise my cue.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by throdgrain
The internet is a means of communication, a very good one, but thats all. It hasnt cured cancer. It hasnt fixed third world poverty.It certainly hasnt built any monorails

The internet in its early stages was used by the scientific and medical establishments to communicate, I remember years back a friend of mine researching his best friends disease on the internet using shared medical information libraries, whilst the internet was not a major contributor to working towards a cancer cure, it has helped a great deal.

If anything the internet will prevent monorails being built, being able to virtually transport youraself means that physical methods are less desireable.