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bodhi
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- #31
Aye. We're now driving ultra fast cars in traffic jams at a grand total of...........
five miles per hour.
Aye. We're now driving ultra fast cars in traffic jams at a grand total of...........
five miles per hour.
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Wij
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- #32
Most of the rainforests weren't there a few thousand years ago. The planet goes through all kinds of changes. If it can handle comet impacts then our piddling about is fuck all.
Besides, the rainforests aren't in that much danger !!! I know it's not trendy to say so and you don't get all that many celebrities out on the publicity-seeking, sorry, I meant awareness-raising trail for this message but most of those figures about how fast the rainforests are disppearing are bollox. There's fucking tonnes left. And they regrow a lot better than you'd believe. Course someone will flame me saying that the research I've seen is sponsored by Brazil Logging Ltd and I'll counter by saying that the data you've seen is 20 years out of date and based on dodgy computer models that were run on a 286.
Let's settle this by chartering a flight over the amazon and count the trees
M
Munkey-
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- #33
your paying for the flight and cocaine
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Stazbumpa
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- #34
Don't bet on it.
1969 and man allegedly walks on the moon (no conspiracy for or against arguments please). 33 years later and how much further have we advanced in this respect? Fucking nowhere.
So what was the point in going in the first place, if indeed they managed it at all? Has mankind advanced at all?
Is there a moon base with a big fuck off telescope on it to help us explore further into the cosmos?
Answers on a postcard please.
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Stazbumpa
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- #35
Originally posted by Wij
Most of the rainforests weren't there a few thousand years ago. The planet goes through all kinds of changes. If it can handle comet impacts then our piddling about is fuck all.
Besides, the rainforests aren't in that much danger !!! I know it's not trendy to say so and you don't get all that many celebrities out on the publicity-seeking, sorry, I meant awareness-raising trail for this message but most of those figures about how fast the rainforests are disppearing are bollox. There's fucking tonnes left. And they regrow a lot better than you'd believe. Course someone will flame me saying that the research I've seen is sponsored by Brazil Logging Ltd and I'll counter by saying that the data you've seen is 20 years out of date and based on dodgy computer models that were run on a 286.
Let's settle this by chartering a flight over the amazon and count the trees
How fast are they deforesting and how fast does it re-grow?
Compare and that'll give you the answer.
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bigbb
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- #36
This made me laugh solidly for minutes on end. Not the idea, the petition. Why people use this site for real petitions is beyond me, I just love some of the comments on people's signing.
Here a selection of my favourites,
"Go for it Bill, then we'll have another reason to get you into another antitrust mess for buying all the forests, which will surely disappear at an even faster rate under your control."
"i LOVE YOU"
"Cmon, buy them you cheap bastard."
- Santa Claus
"Save the monkeys!"
"Bill - Save your money, and do something useful with it... like saving our stock price!!!"
- MS Stock Holder
"looks like a steal to me"
"You can do it, Bill! If we lose the rainforest what will we see when we look outside of our Windows?"
Em, the same thing you see everyday; a few walls, a garage, a garden, a car etc.
"usually id think you're a cunt but do this and forever you will have my admiration"
And finally, my all time favourite;
"C'mon Bill, save the world so you can make money selling software..."
Interesting.
Here a selection of my favourites,
"Go for it Bill, then we'll have another reason to get you into another antitrust mess for buying all the forests, which will surely disappear at an even faster rate under your control."
"i LOVE YOU"
"Cmon, buy them you cheap bastard."
- Santa Claus
"Save the monkeys!"
"Bill - Save your money, and do something useful with it... like saving our stock price!!!"
- MS Stock Holder
"looks like a steal to me"
"You can do it, Bill! If we lose the rainforest what will we see when we look outside of our Windows?"
Em, the same thing you see everyday; a few walls, a garage, a garden, a car etc.
"usually id think you're a cunt but do this and forever you will have my admiration"
And finally, my all time favourite;
"C'mon Bill, save the world so you can make money selling software..."
Interesting.
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xane
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- #37
Ignorance is in the understanding of the true shape of the planet, well over 70% of the original forest cover is intact since the arrival of man, and deforestation in all parts of the world has been greatly overestimated, especially as most wood now comes from plantations rather than native forest.
Madagascar may well be running out of forest, it is sad, but this is a mere twig compared to the global forest cover, it will not affect the environment or global warming one bit, and it does not accurately represent the global "problem".
Probably the most accurate statement so far.
Tree-huggers have a political agenda too, just like the governments and big business, why we hold their views sacred is beyond me, apparently for them it more important to save trees from being cut down and bunny rabbits from being slaughtered than humans from war, famine and disease.
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Wij
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- #38
OK, what are your figures then ? All the figures I've seen from environmental campaigners were the ones devised in the 80s and 90s which said that most of it would be gone by now. It hasn't. They don't seem to come up with new figures any more because the headlines wouldn't be very good.
"Some Rainforest is being logged and then regrown and were pretty sure it's being logged faster than regrown so at some point in the future a long way off but we don't know when it will all be gone but we'll have decades to do something before it does."
Not as eyecatching as "An area the size of England is being lost every month !!!"
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Wij
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- #39
Nice post cama
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Stazbumpa
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- #40
But I think humans bring the war/famine thing on themselves.
Bunny Rabbits, as a rule, don't.
Bunny Rabbits, as a rule, don't.
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WPKenny
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- #41
Heh. What was that about the glasses being half empty?
I feel that most people look to the future and compare it to today's standards.
To look to the future, you need to examine the past. I'm not much of a historian but you don't need to be just to realise that we've achieved a hell of a lot in just the past 100 years.
Politics, economy etc aside. Just look at what man has invented and achieved with those inventions. Not everything is created to be used in wars.
I've read 1984 and although the philosphy is sound, it's hardly a realistic view of the way things are headed.
There will always be good people in the world and they will always find a way to have a voice.
Look at the guy who recently won the Nobel prize for his work on the human genes and stuff. He could have technically, patented the human body and made ...billions probably. But he didn't.
He released his research straight onto the net and now EVERYONE can use this information from tiny little labs in uni experiements to huge gigantic corporations.
It's people like him (sorry if I can't remember his name...pleasant chap with a grey beard) who humble us all and show us what just one human is capable of if we put our minf to it.
Yes, the rainforests may be vanishing. But you can be sure that there's already plenty of ways to create oxygen artificially. If the world does turn into a concrete jungle, we'll still find a way to survive.
If that means living in the oceans, underground, in space, we WILL do it.
To quote Jurrasic Park for a sec, "Life will find way."
There's still a hell of a lot of good things going on in the world. But not a lot of them make the news because people are more concerned with who got mugged last week or which country is under attack from the US this month etc etc.
We just need to look a little further than what the papers or the news bulletins tell us. There are some modern days saints out there who are being overlooked because "Doreen Smith, 93, mugged and killed" grabs the headlines. We need inspiration, not pescimism.
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Stazbumpa
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- #42
I believe it was actually the size of Belgium. Either way, I was asking you, not the other way round.
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bigbb
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- #43
"NUKE THE WHALES!"
Oh, that's the best.
What a load of sensationalist, rattling arsed, American bullwonger this petition is.
Oh, that's the best.
What a load of sensationalist, rattling arsed, American bullwonger this petition is.
M
mr.Blacky
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- #44
well not true serial killing has happend for ages, and given a proper name too, war.
for Kez hmmmm no excuse
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Stazbumpa
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- #45
But that is precisely my point, we as humans will never be in this utopian united state, because nobody fucking wants it. That bloke who did the gene thing is a true saint, but he is in the minority by a long shot.
The human race is tribal and violent, and nothing will ever change that, short of an alien invasion a la' Independence Day.
I look to the future by examining the past, true enough, and all I see is religious conflict, political cowardice and general indifference. Have a look at that pic of the Palestinian who blew himself up the other day and tell me I'm fucking wrong.
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xane
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- #46
The most accurate and almost totally global statistics come from the Forestry division of the Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), part of the United Nations (UN).
According to them, global deforestation in 2000 was around 0.22% loss per year.
Source: FRA Global Tables 2000
Slightly different from the 30-40% yearly loss speculated by the tree-hugging community don't you think ?
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mr.Blacky
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- #47
looking at the past I say we will outgrow the tribal and violent things. Yes there will be places that are still backward like Palestine/Israel or Whales but thats live
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suicide121
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- #48
Man, that must have taken a damn longtime to type upOriginally posted by WPKenny
Heh. What was that about the glasses being half empty?
I feel that most people look to the future and compare it to today's standards.
To look to the future, you need to examine the past. I'm not much of a historian but you don't need to be just to realise that we've achieved a hell of a lot in just the past 100 years.
Politics, economy etc aside. Just look at what man has invented and achieved with those inventions. Not everything is created to be used in wars.
I've read 1984 and although the philosphy is sound, it's hardly a realistic view of the way things are headed.
There will always be good people in the world and they will always find a way to have a voice.
Look at the guy who recently won the Nobel prize for his work on the human genes and stuff. He could have technically, patented the human body and made ...billions probably. But he didn't.
He released his research straight onto the net and now EVERYONE can use this information from tiny little labs in uni experiements to huge gigantic corporations.
It's people like him (sorry if I can't remember his name...pleasant chap with a grey beard) who humble us all and show us what just one human is capable of if we put our minf to it.
Yes, the rainforests may be vanishing. But you can be sure that there's already plenty of ways to create oxygen artificially. If the world does turn into a concrete jungle, we'll still find a way to survive.
If that means living in the oceans, underground, in space, we WILL do it.
To quote Jurrasic Park for a sec, "Life will find way."
There's still a hell of a lot of good things going on in the world. But not a lot of them make the news because people are more concerned with who got mugged last week or which country is under attack from the US this month etc etc.
We just need to look a little further than what the papers or the news bulletins tell us. There are some modern days saints out there who are being overlooked because "Doreen Smith, 93, mugged and killed" grabs the headlines. We need inspiration, not pescimism.
C
Cod
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- #49
What a shite letter.. just cos he's made his millions doesn't mean he should waste it to save the world. Its not gonna make any difference in his lifetime and before people start saying he's selfish and everything i dont see anybody else buying acre's of rainforest and turning them into protected land, full of happy monkeys, rainbow-colored parrots, and majestic trees filling our air with clean, pure oxygen.
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Munkey-
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- #50
but why bother? whats the point? we triy so hard but it gets taken away from us. following kenny's vein. the guy who invented the internet......cant remember his name, wrote a book called "weaving the web", he could've patented it and made billions....but he diddnt.....and now M$ and other companies are abusing it and holding it to ransom with their own software. before we can organize the world, we need to organize ourselves
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Stazbumpa
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- #51
All I'm saying is that the eco-system spawned us, and if we fuck up said eco-system, it stands to reason that we wither and die. What makes humans so fucking special?
We have language and self awareness, thats about the only differences from everything else.
Humans will ALWAYS be tribal, look at history ffs. Look at the world now. To say that the world is not still in a tribal state is ridiculous.
The breakaway ex-Soviet republics.
Israel/Palestine.
Former Yugoslavia.
British attitude to Europe (I love our attitude problem).
Fucking football supporters for crying out loud.
Notice a pattern? A tribal pattern?
We have language and self awareness, thats about the only differences from everything else.
Humans will ALWAYS be tribal, look at history ffs. Look at the world now. To say that the world is not still in a tribal state is ridiculous.
The breakaway ex-Soviet republics.
Israel/Palestine.
Former Yugoslavia.
British attitude to Europe (I love our attitude problem).
Fucking football supporters for crying out loud.
Notice a pattern? A tribal pattern?
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WPKenny
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- #52
As human's we have the power to shape our environment. Even if that environment is in a oxygen suit we have to wear 24/7.
Be realistic about things and not so damn pesimistic.
Yes, there's some real shitty things going on in the world. Football hooliganism. It's hardly something that happens outside your house now is it (in most cases)?
Wars in the middle east. Hardly got much to do with you has it? I don't see you being forced to take ANY PART WHATSOEVER!
Despite all of these things, normal life still goes on for the majority of the world.
2 inventors/scientists people have been mentioned in this thread who've made larger changes to our lives that Bush or Blair ever have, together.
Even with something as universally shocking as the Twin Towers disaster, life goes on. My life hasn't significantly changed as a direct result of anything Osama did, or Blair has done since, nor Bush.
People see what's on the news and think the world's going to end next week.
It's not. No matter how many nutters there are out there wanting to fly planes into building or mail anthrax to heads of state, there will always be someone who can make a bigger difference, for the better.
Could you really imagine what life might be like without the internet? I couldn't. I'm willing to put money on the fact that most of you couldn't either.
Perhaps life without phones? Cars? Computers? Electricity?
For all the bad things related to these you can name hundreds or thousands more good things.
999 for instance. Telephone to dial the number, an ambulance to pick you up, satelite navigation (so the driver doesn't get completly lost if the location is remote), bateries to power equipment that gives you first aid, electricity at the hospital to keep your heart monitor working and your oxygen flowing.
Thnat's just one example of how things, each created by person, have had such a profoundly good effect on our lives.
Glass half empty? Pah. Shake yourself up and get a PMA. Positive Mental Attitude.
Be realistic about things and not so damn pesimistic.
Yes, there's some real shitty things going on in the world. Football hooliganism. It's hardly something that happens outside your house now is it (in most cases)?
Wars in the middle east. Hardly got much to do with you has it? I don't see you being forced to take ANY PART WHATSOEVER!
Despite all of these things, normal life still goes on for the majority of the world.
2 inventors/scientists people have been mentioned in this thread who've made larger changes to our lives that Bush or Blair ever have, together.
Even with something as universally shocking as the Twin Towers disaster, life goes on. My life hasn't significantly changed as a direct result of anything Osama did, or Blair has done since, nor Bush.
People see what's on the news and think the world's going to end next week.
It's not. No matter how many nutters there are out there wanting to fly planes into building or mail anthrax to heads of state, there will always be someone who can make a bigger difference, for the better.
Could you really imagine what life might be like without the internet? I couldn't. I'm willing to put money on the fact that most of you couldn't either.
Perhaps life without phones? Cars? Computers? Electricity?
For all the bad things related to these you can name hundreds or thousands more good things.
999 for instance. Telephone to dial the number, an ambulance to pick you up, satelite navigation (so the driver doesn't get completly lost if the location is remote), bateries to power equipment that gives you first aid, electricity at the hospital to keep your heart monitor working and your oxygen flowing.
Thnat's just one example of how things, each created by person, have had such a profoundly good effect on our lives.
Glass half empty? Pah. Shake yourself up and get a PMA. Positive Mental Attitude.
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Wij
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- #53
Pre-Menstrually-Argumentative ?
No. Kenny is right. Hail Kenny
No. Kenny is right. Hail Kenny
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Stazbumpa
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- #54
How the hell can you have a PMA, as you put it, if that is going to be the case? What right do we have to fuck everything up so that we HAVE to wear a fucking oxygen suit?
War in Middle East. Of course it doesn't involve me, but you forget that there are plenty of dickheads living in this country who share the mentality of the fuck heads out there and hate this country anyway.
All it takes is a nudge and they're off.
And what precisely is normal life? Normal in our sense or normal for the majority of the worlds population's sense? Normal for us is great, but our way of life is in the minority when compared to the amount of people on this planet and how they have to live.
I wish I could share this PMA of yours, but unfortunately I have seen and heard far too much for this to happen. I might be able to enjoy MY life if I'm lucky but I don't hold any hope for the human race in general.
The wrong people are in charge everywhere and somebody somewhere will be planning something that nobody, however great and good, can rectify.
Its in our nature.
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WPKenny
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- #55
You seem to be missing my point rather badly.
You make it sound like the human race is doomed to extinction by the end of next week and you're still comparing the future in today's frame of reference, not the past. Look at our progress over the last few centuries, not just what's going on today.
Wars go on all the time. We think the world's going to shit because we have better communications and a media establishment that broadcasts it 24/7.
A hundred years ago things were far less global. Wars were going on all over the place and countries were tearing themselves to pieces. But it wasn't widely aknowledged because it wasn't widely communicated.
I'd be interested if someone could state and prove that there's ever been a century where there's not been some sort of major war in some part of the globe.
My point when I mentioned the oxygen suits is that we won't ever just curl up and die. You underestimate the human race as a whole. They say that if the earth was totally blasted in a nuclear attack that the only things likely to survive would be cockroaches and virii.
I'm sure there are some cynics who believe this too.
Look at the bigger picture and how people's actions affect others.
What's more likely? One muslim fundamentalist provoking the entire globe into a world war? Or someone inventing a cure for cancer?
Again your opinion on that comes back down the to glass half full/empty.
You make it sound like the human race is doomed to extinction by the end of next week and you're still comparing the future in today's frame of reference, not the past. Look at our progress over the last few centuries, not just what's going on today.
Wars go on all the time. We think the world's going to shit because we have better communications and a media establishment that broadcasts it 24/7.
A hundred years ago things were far less global. Wars were going on all over the place and countries were tearing themselves to pieces. But it wasn't widely aknowledged because it wasn't widely communicated.
I'd be interested if someone could state and prove that there's ever been a century where there's not been some sort of major war in some part of the globe.
My point when I mentioned the oxygen suits is that we won't ever just curl up and die. You underestimate the human race as a whole. They say that if the earth was totally blasted in a nuclear attack that the only things likely to survive would be cockroaches and virii.
I'm sure there are some cynics who believe this too.
Look at the bigger picture and how people's actions affect others.
What's more likely? One muslim fundamentalist provoking the entire globe into a world war? Or someone inventing a cure for cancer?
Again your opinion on that comes back down the to glass half full/empty.
M
mr.Blacky
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- #56
We have the right simply caus we can change things. That doesn't mean however that we can fuck things up. It gives us the rights but also the obligations. The problem is that we are not morally develloped to see the obligations.
I say look at the facts most people are better of then 10 20 years ago. Not just in Europe or North America but look at India or China how much they have developed in 2 decades. If you expect things to be a heaven on earth, sorry that will take a lot longer but we will get there dispite the bumps on the road.
ps what are virii? virus but more of them?
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xane
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- #57
In this context, virii are the ex-CND members running around in t-shirts saying "I told you so".
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throdgrain
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- #58
Thing is, I dont think people are really better off than they were 20 years ago. i think things are almost exactly the same. Still there are droughts, famines and all around the world. In our country what has changed ? Not much.
You may laugh but in 1982 I thought god.. I'll be 36 in the year 2000, who knows what stuff will be going on? People on the moon? Monorails ? Certainly in the seventies thats what people thought.
And whats different really ? Nothing. Electrical goods, (computers,faxes etc) have improved. But what else? Not much. We still live in the same houses, the cars are newer but still do the same thing. You could get in a 1978 Ford Cortina and drive from London to Leeds no problem.
I for one am quite dissappointed so far !
You may laugh but in 1982 I thought god.. I'll be 36 in the year 2000, who knows what stuff will be going on? People on the moon? Monorails ? Certainly in the seventies thats what people thought.
And whats different really ? Nothing. Electrical goods, (computers,faxes etc) have improved. But what else? Not much. We still live in the same houses, the cars are newer but still do the same thing. You could get in a 1978 Ford Cortina and drive from London to Leeds no problem.
I for one am quite dissappointed so far !
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Wij
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- #59
Um, if you get bollock cancer you will probably survive.
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xane
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- #60
Well, pollution is a LOT lower than it was 20 years ago, and a LOT less people are starving, and a LOT fewer children die from disease and malnutrition. Its not over by a long shot, but the advances made in reducing human suffering worldwide have been significant.
Famines are happening less, so is loss of life during regular natural disasters, like hurricanes, eruptions, flooding and earthquakes.
A 1978 car probably weighs twice as much and comsumes twice as much as a modern car, that's a lot less waste going on, worldwide the amount of waste and depletion has improved, we can comfortably accomodate our waste and resources for the next 100 years, the old "swimming in a sea of garbage" fears of the 1970s are no more.
Oil, Coal, Gas, Unranium and other natural resources are not running out, in fact even though our comsumption of them has rocketed in recent times, we are finding more and more resources. In 1910 they speculated around 25 years of oil left, today that figure stands at 70+ years, even though our oil consumption is many times greater. Additionally more and more alternative technologies are being invented every day, it is perfectly feasible to convert to non-fossil fuel right now (although it would be more expensive).
The "green revolution" that started in the 1970s continues, with advances in fertilisers, insecticides and GM providing hungry countries with more food in less agricultural area, more and more countries are becoming agriculturially self-sufficient, despite growing populations.
The threat of war or economic collapse has subsided with these things too.
All this is considering human population growth, which is another point. The global population has not been growing because people are having more children, in fact the global birth rate has declined steadily, what is happening is more children are surviving until maturity and having children of their own, additionally, people are living longer from growing older and dying less of "old person" diseases and conditions.
As infant mortality decreases people have less children, so there is a counter-balancing effect in place, but the growth in more children to begin with and more old people as well means a net increase, however, it will eventually stable.
Why people attack world population growth when in fact it means children are not dying as much is confusing. Surpassing the milestone of global infant mortality dropping below 50% is something to cheer about, not cast doubt on an overpopulated planet (fat chance of that).
World population is expected to peek at around 11 billion by 2050, but recent figures have shown that cultures are starting to already reduce family sizes even before the assumed level of "security" kicks in, so in fact the overcrowding situation will be a lot less than expected and many more countries will become economically secure.
The poorest countries of the world are also the most underpopulated, they need infant mortality to drop so their populations can grow and the country can achieve economic stabilty and join the world trade market. Once this happens they can start to consider their impact on the environment and can "afford" the luxury of an eco-friendly society.