Best defensive tank in albion?

[Danya]

Originally posted by Pin
A pally gets more hp in PvE, huh?

Pally gets con as a primary stat. Reaver gets no con with levels. Paladins have the potential for more HP. If hp is what you're after roll an armsman, most HP in Albion bar none.

Paladin has a roughly 400 AF advatange (plate+buff+chant), healchant, dmg add and endurance chant. They are the better defensive tank for PvE hands down. All of a reavers aggro abilities are quite weak compaired to healchant, especially on epic mobs.

On plate vs chain+evade. Plate works all the time from any angle, evade is front only (unless you're a merc).

Having played a cleric in Avalon city groups I have to say a paladin is a much easier tank to heal than a reaver, damage taken is much lower and heal chant means less healing on top of that.

A Paladin with 3 orange?
Might be wrong but I doubt they have the dmg output to survive

A paladin can easily take multiple oranges and reds. The point is they don't need damage output they have chants to keep them alive while they beat the mob to death slowly.

 

[sorusi]

paladin imo

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Danyan
Pally gets con as a primary stat. Reaver gets no con with levels. Paladins have the potential for more HP. If hp is what you're after roll an armsman, most HP in Albion bar none.

Yes, paladins have more hp than a Reaver. The difference is around 150. A Reaver will steal more than twice that back in any given fight.

Originally posted by Danyan
Paladin has a roughly 400 AF advatange (plate+buff+chant), healchant, dmg add and endurance chant. They are the better defensive tank for PvE hands down. All of a reavers aggro abilities are quite weak compaired to healchant, especially on epic mobs.

Closer to 350 difference. But taking hits != defensive capability. Paladins are the best aggro holders without question. And in a PvE group with both you wouldn't want the Reaver to be holding aggro, you'd let him use positionals.

Originally posted by Danyan
On plate vs chain+evade. Plate works all the time from any angle, evade is front only (unless you're a merc).

PvE you shouldn't be getting mobs behind you, but true in RvR you often can't avoid people getting behind you (but they should be focussed on attacking the caster/healer you are guarding).

Originally posted by Danyan
Having played a cleric in Avalon city groups I have to say a paladin is a much easier tank to heal than a reaver, damage taken is much lower and heal chant means less healing on top of that.

Yup, heal chant is nice in PvE. Shame it's too weak to be of much use RvR. The Reaver should be throwing in his own 150-400 point lifetaps and along with 40 point lifetap procs every 2-3 hits. (Doesn't heal group though).

Originally posted by Danyan
A paladin can easily take multiple oranges and reds. The point is they don't need damage output they have chants to keep them alive while they beat the mob to death slowly.

Yes, Paladins live longer with mobs bashing on them, but in my opinion that does not mean they have better defensive abilities.

 

[keibaen]

paladin wins.

Simply because his chants affect everyone in the group.
Dmg add affects everyone and stacks with an EB.
af chant affects everyone in the group.
heal chant, more people hit more it heals...and FH comes in the heal group category.
end chant affects all the tanks.
slam, shield spec, guard on other tanks.

the Paladin is designed to be the ultimate defensive tank.
he is good on his own pve, but add him to a group and what the paladin lacks in dmg output on a personal basis he gets back through the others.

1 person attacking with dmg add = a little more.
8 people.... thats alot.
8 times the end 8 times the dmg add 8 times the af and 8 times the healing power.
All this on a tank in plate with specable shild and parry. and Con as primary stat.

you say reavers are good defensive? reavers get better the more opponents they are near because their pb's affect more people...paladins get better the more people they group with to protect...

So please drop the best defense is offense crap and realise this.

*edit*
and dont forget a skilled paladin will be able to slam, chant the 4 main chants, and then twist the 8 resist chants if the group is being attacked by casters and mez which in rvr is a likely thing to occur...i know because i can twist all 12 chants i have so far at the expense of my end bar...

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Pin
Yes, paladins have more hp than a Reaver. The difference is around 150. A Reaver will steal more than twice that back in any given fight.

A paladin will heal himself for twice the amount you steal

Yes, Paladins live longer with mobs bashing on them, but in my opinion that does not mean they have better defensive abilities. [/B]

Defensive = the amount of time a class can have a mob on him. A reaver cannot do that.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Defensive = the amount of time a class can have a mob on him. A reaver cannot do that.

No it isn't.

Defense (imo) is partly how long you can survive, it's partly how long you can help others survive, and that's not just in PvE with crappy AI mobs who'll just stick to the Paladin because he's running healchant and using a taunt. In RvR a zerker won't switch to hitting the Paladin because he healed your Sorcerer for 50hp.

A Paladin on guard slams the zerker to stop him. A Reaver slams the zerker and then has the option of 3/4-shotting him.

 

[Pin]

Anyway, I hadn't said Reavers are better, I said they are close rivals and are better in defense in different areas.

I'd certainly want 1 of each in the group anyway.

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
A reaver cannot do that.

is this from personal experience or just a incorrect guess?

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by keibaen
and dont forget a skilled paladin will be able to slam, chant the 4 main chants, and then twist the 8 resist chants if the group is being attacked by casters and mez which in rvr is a likely thing to occur...i know because i can twist all 12 chants i have so far at the expense of my end bar...

mashing 14 keys until you run out of end does not = skill

 

[Falcore]

u all forgetting the pally group heal wotsit, imo prolly most defensive thing u can get, and makes paladin more defensive than reavers for just having that.

Can see reavers replacing armsman in some rvr groups tho with there magic abilities, which makes me sad =/

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by Pin
Sorry, don't agree.


HPs? At level 50, before aug con or toughness my Briton Reaver has 1816 hp buffed. I'll have 2010 with aug con2 and tough3.

Is that low hp?

It's rogue HP.
But certainly all the potential lifedrains (and UToS) adds a lot to that.

 

[Aussie-]

once every 30secs? thats _alot_ !

 

[Aussie-]

best defensive tank is pala with high chants and AP2-3 / IP / FH aka regtur

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.LandShark
It's rogue HP.
But certainly all the potential lifedrains (and UToS) adds a lot to that.

It's not rogue hps. It's hybrid hps.

Rogue is 0.072*con*level + 10.8*level + 20 + hits.
Hybrid is 0.076*con*level + 11.4*level + 20 + hits.

And Paladins and Reavers are both under Hybrid.

 

[Chuffy]

Originally posted by Pin
[I'll have 2010 with aug con2 and tough3.

Augmented Constitution Passive N/A 1 3 6 10 14 N/A N/A Increases your character's Constitution by 6 per level.

Complete waste of Points Passive N/A 14 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A Increases your character's HP by 150

 

[parlain]

For RvR I've not seen enough of the reaver to form an useful opinion.

For RvR let's see 4 reavers, a cleric and a theugist (10sec pbt+eb)
farm Princes and then I'll concede that a reaver matches the Paladin for a defensive tank

All valid points on all sides with the bulk of reaver coming from Pin (duh ^^) and most of the valid points of Paladin coming from Danyan.

Each is a valid defensive tank if played like that and yes! belive it or not I CAN kill people in RvR-our damage output isn't that gimped dependant on spec (usually able to kill slammed elphs in slam time barring heals and pbt-good enough for me!)

BTW giv sceenies of damage output vs zerks I'd love to see it given that 3/4 shottting a zerk =400-500ish damage a hit (given that zerks hp buffed is around that); alos would be nice to have info on what spd weapon you using with those screenies

 

[kinadold]

Reavers are excellent defensive tanks in rvr since they have
leviathan. I doubt much in this game will be able to ignore a reaver hitting him in the back, and by that taking agro of the
caster. Combined with slam you have the potential to whoop
any single tank/assasin who attacks the caster your protecting,
or atleast pull him off.

In offense the lack of good anytime styles, expensive ra's and
low hp makes the reaver best at caster killing. They will often turn and try to run, and then ...

 

[dakeyras]

Anyone who tries to run from a Reaver is history unless they get help or can perma-sprint away in time.

Casters haven't got much time for that help to arrive. Not with the sheer dmg output of Levi.

Best I have had so far was a zerker running up the MG stairs to get to a caster on the wall. Lifedrain then a couple of Asps at range, then once he reached the caster and I got into range, shield stun and levi. By turning on abs debuff you can make a substantial increase to damage. In the 3 levi's it took to drop him with a 3.3 spd whip the best Leviathian hit was:

258+292 (base+proc)+95 crit+62 proc buff+47 dmg add

Total needed to drop a buffed zerker was 1 Lifedrain, 3 Levis, 2 Asps and a shield stun.

As far as the whole defensive tank argument goes I don't think there is much to choose between them. In PvE I would go Reaver but in RvR I would go Paladin, for the simple reason that in PvE the Reaver wants to be in front of the target to block (for Cobra) whilst in RvR the Reaver needs to get behind to Levi.

Best combo...Reaver and Paladin with guard on each other

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Pin
No it isn't.

Defense (imo) is partly how long you can survive, it's partly how long you can help others survive, and that's not just in PvE with crappy AI mobs who'll just stick to the Paladin because he's running healchant and using a taunt. In RvR a zerker won't switch to hitting the Paladin because he healed your Sorcerer for 50hp.

A Paladin on guard slams the zerker to stop him. A Reaver slams the zerker and then has the option of 3/4-shotting him.

3-4 shotting things is OFFENSIVE, not DEFENSIVE.

Besides I don't believe a reaver is capable of 3-shotting a zerker. The avg. zerker (buffed; but you are all the time talking about buffs) has way over 2000 hp. You do like 700 dmg/swing?!

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by dakeyras
is this from personal experience or just a incorrect guess?

That is from personal experience seeing a reaver as main-tank in an XP-group.

High con mobs on a reaver HURT THE SHIT on him.

Perhaps he does huge damage, can be. But that is offensive, not defensive.

It's like calling van Nistelrooy a defensive player.

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
3-4 shotting things is OFFENSIVE, not DEFENSIVE.

Besides I don't believe a reaver is capable of 3-shotting a zerker. The avg. zerker (buffed; but you are all the time talking about buffs) has way over 2000 hp. You do like 700 dmg/swing?!

Not every swing..depends on alot of factors such as whether the Reaver is running abs debuff, resists, roll of the dice, crits, proc buff firing, whiffs, evade etc. Obviously a High RR Reaver will tighten variance.

Using a 3.3 spd 99% qual slash whip I would guess my average swing with levi on a zerker adds up to around 550. Add lifedrain, at avg 220 + the damage from the slam and a Reaver can definetly 3-shot a zerk (if 3-shotting doesn't incl the slam and LD)

Got to get behind him though..if a zerker faces me and slam whiffs then game over. If LA worked correctly then it would all be nicely balanced. If I get behind him, I win..if I can't he wins.

Now if block/parry worked properly in RvR...

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by parlain
BTW giv sceenies of damage output vs zerks I'd love to see it given that 3/4 shottting a zerk =400-500ish damage a hit (given that zerks hp buffed is around that); alos would be nice to have info on what spd weapon you using with those screenies

Okay. had some problems uploading images, but I have a couple of snaps from my Reaver, mostly Leviathan, due to nice damage, and rear positionals are SO easy to get off on a zerk who's chasing a cleric/caster...

As for 3-shotting. I frequently 3-shot through 1500 hp, and 4-shot 2k (450-550 is completely run-of-the-mill for Leviathan with a 3.3spd weapon). The most I have had to do so far was 9 leviathans on a RR7 hero who moosed and IPd (i.e. ~6k hps in 9 hits + lifetaps, dots and DD aura) who was chasing my group Sorcerer (he was immune to slam-stun), but of course this wouldn't have been possible without the Paladin in the group for end regen.

(And my statement was 3/4-shotting. 3-shot unbuffed, quite capable of 4-shotting a buffed zerk).



Leviathan on a bard using a 3.3spd whip (slash damage, so 'the wrong weapon' ):

3 Leviathans on Articomplex with a 3.3spd whip. Insurrextion used shouts and 1 swing (then got slammed). Tank died before Levi proc on the 3rd hit:

http://www.btinternet.com/~challand/3x_Levi_Articomplex.jpg


My RR3 ding:

http://www.btinternet.com/~challand/Whyp_Myrmidon.jpg


All pics I have 207qui, so swing the whip at ~2s delay.


Anyway, I'm still a n00b, so none of these were with me running abs debuff, and I don't often remember to switch weapons for opponents armour type.



And here's one to show me being 'defensive':

http://www.btinternet.com/~challand/Quad_block.jpg