Berserkers and Shadowzerkers dehaste your LA!

M

Melachi-

Guest
Right, ive gone over this in my head hundreds of times and allways taught I was wrong, but now ive either forgotten an obvious mistake or something because it seems to make sense

First off, what this will achieve is much lower enduarance usage on styles. This will be especially nice for SB's since most zerkers will be grouped but I warn you, this will suck for PA damage, its a lose lose situation for PA'ing, so switch back to normal setup for PA.

Ok, imagine this. Norse Berserker with 60quickness, no haste ra's or buffs.

In main hand he has a MP Cleaver (16.5dps, 4.0speed, 100qual/con)
In off hand he has MP WBA (16.5dps, 2.9speed, 100qual/con)

Therefore his swing speed is now, 3.45

Lets assume hes using a new style, with a groth rate of 0.50

So he swings (assuming 4.0 weap hits for 40 damage, and 2.9 weap hits for 29 damage, and style damage will be half the swing time)

MH hits for 40base damage
MH hits for (3.45speed swing time styled damage) 17.25style damage
OH hits for 29base damage

Total damage of: 86.25

Now lets reverse this, and dehaste our main hand.

Mainhand is now the WBA, and offhand is now the Cleaver

MH hits for 29 base damage
MH hits for (3.45speed swing time styled damage) 17.25style damage
OH hits for 40base damage

Total damage of: 86.25

Now since they both do the same damage in the same ammount of time, people ask, wheres the advantage? Well endurance cost for dual wield types is taken from the MH speed, therefore you will do the the same damage, in the same swing speed, for less endurance.

Things to be carefull with:
Dump that hand-axe, do not use it as a main-hand, as its lower dps was previously only hurting base damage, but now it will also hurt your style damage, get a WBA instead.

PA damage, dont use it with this setup, reason why is because PA doesnt calculate its damage in the same way as normal styles, its all about base damage. So using the slow MH fast OH will get you a harder hit in the same time for PA and BS styles.


Btw, please be aware I might be wrong. Im currently under the beleife that Haste, quickness, De-haste ect.. only affect style damage, not base damage.
 
A

Arnor

Guest
the bait is laid....



heere pinneh pinneh pinneh!


heeeerre pinpin!!
 
D

Driwen

Guest
melachi your assumptions are wrong though. the style damage is based on the main hands damage.

So the style damage of this example :
MH hits for 40base damage
MH hits for (3.45speed swing time styled damage) 17.25style damage
OH hits for 29base damage

should be 20 and in the other 14.5, atleast assuming that 3.45 swingspeed =17.25. So dont dehaste as you would only loose on it.
 
M

Melachi-

Guest
I was under the impression style damage came from, DPS of weapon, growth rate, and actual swing speed.

This is why people who were Attack Speed Debuffed, would see themselves hitting for larger (albeit slower) hits because Style damage increased, however base damage was unchanged.

This is also why Haste is a good thing for non-frontload types, as your style damage stays in ratio to how fast your hitting, however you gain from higher base damage.
 
M

Melachi-

Guest
Sorry i see what you mean, is that style damage comes from the main hands set speed despite it actually swinging faster or slower?
 
D

Driwen

Guest
Originally posted by Melachi-
Sorry i see what you mean, is that style damage comes from the main hands set speed despite it actually swinging faster or slower?

it comes from the main hands speed (the one calculated after the haste from spells/quickness). Not the actual swing speed off offhand+mainhand.
The styled damage is done on the first swing, so that hands speed is used for calcing the damage. It doesnt really matter if you are actually swinging faster or not.

edit: and for LA the mainhand is always the first swing.
 
F

freeco

Guest
The combo that worked best for me is 2x4.0 spd cleavers and hastebot 50aug.

with that i did around 100 in offhand damage and i swing every 1.9secs or something. Qui 250+ ofc.
 
B

bouh

Guest
Originally posted by freeco
Qui 250+ ofc.

do you mean valkyn-zerker with aug.qui 2+ or norseman/dwarf with +15qui at start and aug.qui 3+?
otherwise u wont get 250qui+ on a zerker.
 
M

mandom

Guest
Originally posted by bouh
do you mean valkyn-zerker with aug.qui 2+ or norseman/dwarf with +15qui at start and aug.qui 3+?
otherwise u wont get 250qui+ on a zerker.
shad0wblade
 
M

Melachi-

Guest
Originally posted by freeco
The combo that worked best for me is 2x4.0 spd cleavers and hastebot 50aug.

with that i did around 100 in offhand damage and i swing every 1.9secs or something. Qui 250+ ofc.

Yeah your quite right, I tried this myself a few times, although only had like 141 dex or something, still was nice, and swing time was fast. However its still a win win situation to take swing speed down to 1.5 with la haste effect by using a faster offhand.
 
F

freeco

Guest
Originally posted by Melachi-
Yeah your quite right, I tried this myself a few times, although only had like 141 dex or something, still was nice, and swing time was fast. However its still a win win situation to take swing speed down to 1.5 with la haste effect by using a faster offhand.

Cant really agree due to high end usage. But as i said it's my prefered way of keeling. With offhand speed RA 2 (cant remember name) u will hit close to cap with dual 4.0 cleavers, like every 1.6secs or something (speedbuffed ofc). Havnt tried that though.

Ohh btw shortly before my cancelation i specced second wind, boy did i love it. Ofc u can use endpots, but in a really close battle with an inf it rocks. If u meet a tank u will be greatful that u have both second wind and endpots. Best part, it's on a 15min timer wich meens u have it up virtually every battle. Expensive like hell but worth it imo.

My spec on Cracked:

Norseman/Shadowblade RR6L0 autotrained to 48. Almost everything capped on a mp suit and mp weapons.
Stealth 34
Critical Strike 34
Left Axe 39
Envenom 31
Axe 41

RA's that i can remember: Purge, Second Wind, MoP2, DR1, Aug con3, Toughness1, See Hidden.

Buffed with MoA3 shammy and Moa2 healer. I had something like: Str-322, Con-300 (not at all sure bout this one), Dex 340, Qui-251. Had 2040 hitpoints.
 
D

Driwen

Guest
Originally posted by freeco
Cant really agree due to high end usage. But as i said it's my prefered way of keeling. With offhand speed RA 2 (cant remember name) u will hit close to cap with dual 4.0 cleavers, like every 1.6secs or something (speedbuffed ofc). Havnt tried that though.

there isnt a RA which makes your offhand swing faster (DR makes your offhand hit for more though). There is Mastery of Arms, which makes you swing faster in general, but I am not sure if it is working properly.

Also with spd 4 weapons and without celerity the fastest you can get is 1.9 sec delay (that is with 250 quickness(which is the cap) and 20% (lvl 50 aug) buff). So I doubt you are swinging at 1.6 secs with two cleavers, unless your using celerity. Which isnt something you can count on being up often, as you would need a good aug healer for that (besides you probably will only have 17% conc based haste).

I would dump secondwind and aug con 3 though. Thats 16 points, and toughness 2 can probably give you as many hitpoints as aug con3 can or more. Second wind isnt so useful as you could use end regen potions before you go into battle so I dont think its worth the 13 points (16-3 for toughness 2).
 
F

freeco

Guest
Originally posted by Driwen
there isnt a RA which makes your offhand swing faster (DR makes your offhand hit for more though). There is Mastery of Arms, which makes you swing faster in general, but I am not sure if it is working properly.

Also with spd 4 weapons and without celerity the fastest you can get is 1.9 sec delay (that is with 250 quickness(which is the cap) and 20% (lvl 50 aug) buff). So I doubt you are swinging at 1.6 secs with two cleavers, unless your using celerity. Which isnt something you can count on being up often, as you would need a good aug healer for that (besides you probably will only have 17% conc based haste).

I would dump secondwind and aug con 3 though. Thats 16 points, and toughness 2 can probably give you as many hitpoints as aug con3 can or more. Second wind isnt so useful as you could use end regen potions before you go into battle so I dont think its worth the 13 points (16-3 for toughness 2).

The RA is called Mastery of arms. Was a little tired when i wrote that last night. But with MoA2 u will get like 1.6secs swingspeed with lvl50 melespeedbuff and dual 4.0 cleavers, atleast acording to a calculator i looked at.

Regarding secondwind, I like it alot. It's not for everyone though i can understand that. Augcon3 is only to get Secondwind or i would stay at augcon2.

In a close combat with an infil the difference is huge between endpots and secondwind. U loose atleast 1 hit maybe even 2 with endpots, as u got to take down your weapons wait a second and then use the pot. But again this is my preferred way of keeling. That's around 200-250 in damage, and that's alot.
 
D

Driwen

Guest
Originally posted by freeco
The RA is called Mastery of arms. Was a little tired when i wrote that last night. But with MoA2 u will get like 1.6secs swingspeed with lvl50 melespeedbuff and dual 4.0 cleavers, atleast acording to a calculator i looked at.

250 quicknes =38% haste
lvl 40 conc based haste= 20%
MoA 2= 6% haste
4.0*.62*.80*.94=1.86

So I doubt you are swinging at 1.6 unless you got celerity aswell.
 
O

old.Reno

Guest
Besides the mastery of arms fix isn't in this patch afaik.
Next patch the RA should actually do something.

Danita
 
W

Whisperess

Guest
Originally posted by Melachi-
<snip>
Your assumptions on style damage being based on both axes is wrong. Thus the entire calculation is wrong.

Me and Slu have already written long posts about this subject, just search, read and comprehend.
 
F

freeco

Guest
Originally posted by Driwen
250 quicknes =38% haste
lvl 40 conc based haste= 20%
MoA 2= 6% haste
4.0*.62*.80*.94=1.86

So I doubt you are swinging at 1.6 unless you got celerity aswell.

Dear Mr A. ccuser. As i said, never tried it myself and it was a calculator found on the net. I am NOT swinging at 1.6secs as of this moment... will that do? Was just a happy dream.. Shame as it would have been nice.

Im still gonna use 4.0spd cleavers in both hands. Acording to me it is better. If i dont have the melespeed buff for some reason, it is almost useless to RvR with him though. With it i kick a$$! :)

/Block's ears
/yell LALALALALALALALA
:D
 
A

Arnor

Guest
Originally posted by freeco
The RA is called Mastery of arms. Was a little tired when i wrote that last night. But with MoA2 u will get like 1.6secs swingspeed with lvl50 melespeedbuff and dual 4.0 cleavers, atleast acording to a calculator i looked at.


with: moa2, dual 4speed wpns you need 34% additional haste to reach the cap with 250 quickness.
 
N

Negura

Guest
Well, LOL. :)
So many wrong suppositions in this thread...
 
M

Melachi-

Guest
Re: Re: Berserkers and Shadowzerkers dehaste your LA!

Originally posted by Whisperess
Your assumptions on style damage being based on both axes is wrong. Thus the entire calculation is wrong.

Me and Slu have already written long posts about this subject, just search, read and comprehend.


Wow, nice to see Barrysworld user's live upto their name.
Hypocrite, comprehend?

You tell me whats allready be said in this thread, therefore not following your own code of posting "just search, read and comprehend." had you left out the first two sentances you would have been just an abnoxious ass, but now your an abnoxious ass and a hypocrite.


Originally posted by Negura
Well, LOL. :)
So many wrong suppositions in this thread...

Wow, constructive post.

To both of you, please try stay within the on-topic limits.
 
K

Kallio

Guest
Re: Re: Re: Berserkers and Shadowzerkers dehaste your LA!

Originally posted by Melachi-
Wow, nice to see Barrysworld user's live upto their name.
Hypocrite, comprehend?

You tell me whats allready be said in this thread, therefore not following your own code of posting "just search, read and comprehend." had you left out the first two sentances you would have been just an abnoxious ass, but now your an abnoxious ass and a hypocrite.

Wow, constructive post.

To both of you, please try stay within the on-topic limits.

Chill out mate, they´re just trying to tell you that you´ve made a mistake. Just wait til Pin gets here and you´ll get your answer ;)

oh, almost forgot:

Originally posted by Arnor
the bait is laid....

heere pinneh pinneh pinneh!


heeeerre pinpin!!

:ROFLMAO:
 
D

Driwen

Guest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Berserkers and Shadowzerkers dehaste your LA!

Originally posted by Kallio
Chill out mate, they´re just trying to tell you that you´ve made a mistake. Just wait til Pin gets here and you´ll get your answer ;)

pin wont come in here, the answer has already been given. His assumptions on LA were wrong and has been explained why it is wrong.

And freeco I dont really care wether you think you are swinging at 1.6 secs or not. However I thought you might like to know that you arent swinging at that speed. You are saying you go for two 4.0 spd cleavers and swing at 1.6 sec, which you can't (atleast not without celerity). So you might have wanted to choose other offhand weapon as you arent swinging at that cap, off course it is up to you to decide what weapons you use. But the reason that with two cleavers you are swinging at 1.6 sec isnt correct, which I thought you might have liked to know.

Ow and melachi whisp was on topic, you asked if this calc is right than we should be using fast mainhand and slow offhand. Whisp answered with your calc is wrong, which is on topic.
 
M

Melachi-

Guest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Berserkers and Shadowzerkers dehaste your LA!

Originally posted by Driwen
Ow and melachi whisp was on topic, you asked if this calc is right than we should be using fast mainhand and slow offhand. Whisp answered with your calc is wrong, which is on topic.

Yes and then told me to go look for threads that had been allready created about this topic isntead of making my own.

I just said he shoud look through my thread to find posts allready created about this point isntead of making his own ;x
 
F

freeco

Guest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Berserkers and Shadowzerkers dehaste your LA!

Originally posted by Driwen

And freeco I dont really care wether you think you are swinging at 1.6 secs or not. However I thought you might like to know that you arent swinging at that speed. You are saying you go for two 4.0 spd cleavers and swing at 1.6 sec, which you can't (atleast not without celerity). So you might have wanted to choose other offhand weapon as you arent swinging at that cap, off course it is up to you to decide what weapons you use. But the reason that with two cleavers you are swinging at 1.6 sec isnt correct, which I thought you might have liked to know.


hahaha, common now. This is what i said in the first place:

"With offhand speed RA 2 (cant remember name) u will hit close to cap with dual 4.0 cleavers, like every 1.6secs or something (speedbuffed ofc). Havnt tried that though."

I was wrong to think that i could get to 1.6 swingsped but i NEVER said that i was swinging at 1.6secs, i said i "haven't tried that". The RA that i was refering too was MoA2 wich i never tried either.

Maybe i swing every 1.9secs now im not sure, but i hit hard that's for sure. An extra bonus for useing 2 slow cleavers is that infils will have a lesser chance to DF me. :)
 
W

Whisperess

Guest
... you can ask for it by name...

Originally posted by Melachi-
Yes and then told me to go look for threads that had been allready created about this topic isntead of making my own.

I just said he shoud look through my thread to find posts allready created about this point isntead of making his own ;x
That's not what I said. I don't mind you posting your topic and it's always nice to see that some people like to think instead of just 'going with the flow'. ( stop calling for Pin and start thinking yourselves to the rest of you. )

I was just giving you information that you could search for either mine of Slu's posts that give information about swing speed and damage etc for LA, since you made a misassumption and maybe wanted to know how it really works ( with numbers etc ).

It's clear to me that you were proud about your findings and your calculations and thus get upset when people point out the flaw in your logic. Perfectly normal human behaviour. Don't let this get you down, keep thinking out of the box and you might find something that hasn't been found before.

Until then, relax. Don't read the worst into every sentance written.
 
S

Slu

Guest
/wave Whisp :)

Didn't see this thread until now, but everything that needs to be said has been said, so I'm just in here /waving and stuff :cool:

Like Whisp said both me and him have made some pretty long posts about LA damage etc so the info is there if anyone is curious about it.

Anyway, it still holds true, slowest mainhand + fast offhand (depending on your haste etc) is the way to go.
 

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