Beleif vs. Non-Beleif

[Mojo]

Uh? Where did Manisch mention the law of physics?

That would come under then "many things", "and so on".

His point as was killswitche's is that we have no free will because of outside influence, that argument encompasses all influence regardless of whether Manisch or Killswitch happened to itemise it or not. I Chose to use physics in my example cos it's cool but its not important to the point at all.

 

[Glacier]

I don't believe in a Deity, or a higher being.

I just believe that we are here, for no more reason than just to be here, a plague.

But I have all respect for people who wish to do so, it just don't make sense to me.

 

[Ara]

Religion is the biggest fraud in the history of mankind, amusing how people still stick with it.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

That would come under then "many things", "and so on".

His point as was killswitche's is that we have no free will because of outside influence, that argument encompasses all influence regardless of whether Manisch or Killswitch happened to itemise it or not. I Chose to use physics in my example cos it's cool but its not important to the point at all.

No, it was not my point. Insert a coin, try again.

And if you think that your will has the full control of some Newton like movement your body can achieve than you're simply wrong.

 

[Golena]

I don't think being religious makes you wrong or a moron by default.

That said I do think many religious people are moron's for their belief's (and i'm sure they feel the same way about me for not believing in it).

The bible is nothing more than a colection of fables. Stories that might or not be true, but if they actually happened or not isn't the point in them, and that's what most people that slate the bible misunderstand.
Many religious people say that what is written in the bible is set in stone and must of happened. They are stupid..
Sensible religious people say that the story in this part of the bible helps us to understand that being nice to our neighbour is a good thing. They arn't stupid..

Talking about God isn't any different to talking about Santa. I'm firmly of the belief that god is the grown up people's version of Santa. That if your good you get rewarded for it, not by presents at christmas but by entry into the nice part of the afterlife. Now most of us over the age of 10 will agree that Santa doesn't exist. What that doesn't mean is that if your good throughout the year you won't get presents. When Christmas day rolls around if you've been good you actually will get presents.
What that means is that even if God doesn't exist, in the same way Santa doesn't, that doesn't mean there isn't an afterlife you can gain entry into by doing what you believe was right.

I actually think that God does exist therefore purely because people believe in him and base their lives around what they think he would want them to do. That's almost the proof of his existance, his ability to effect someone's life and their actions. It's not some floaty being up there in the sky, but in the switches in people's brain that make them not do something. God exists because people believe he exists. If everyone stopped believing he wouldn't exist. Terry Pratchett explored the idea in "small gods" and personally I believe he got it spot on!

The brain is basically a very complex neural net.. Inputs go in and get converted into outputs. A neural net works based on assigning values to certain paths through the network. Now the question is, what is controlling the values in that path. Free will would imply that "us" whatever that is has control over the values, so can alter the outputs by fiddling with the numbers (selecting outputs that we like and re-inforcing them). Not having free will would assume that the values are simply changing based purely on environmental stimulai such as pain is bad and no pain is good, with no master operator. To compare it to the rock.. the rock has no input so is unable to re-program itself based upon it's environment. We can decide that an action was bad, and alter ourselves to try to reduce the chances of that happening again.
Saying you have the ability to pick up a knife and stab someone, so you must have free will is also misleading.. since you didn't pick up the knife and didn't stab the person. How do you know that you actually ever had the ability to do it? (don't try this at home kiddies!)

 

[Mojo]

No, it was not my point. Insert a coin, try again.

And if you think that your will has the full control of some Newton like movement your body can achieve than you're simply wrong.

Umm so what was your point then? and if I am as you put it "simply wrong" then point me in the direction of the definitive answer that proves that you are simply right.

 

[Mojo]

I don't think being religious makes you wrong or a moron by default.

That said I do think many religious people are moron's for their belief's (and i'm sure they feel the same way about me for not believing in it).

The bible is nothing more than a colection of fables. Stories that might or not be true, but if they actually happened or not isn't the point in them, and that's what most people that slate the bible misunderstand.
Many religious people say that what is written in the bible is set in stone and must of happened. They are stupid..
Sensible religious people say that the story in this part of the bible helps us to understand that being nice to our neighbour is a good thing. They arn't stupid..

Talking about God isn't any different to talking about Santa. I'm firmly of the belief that god is the grown up people's version of Santa. That if your good you get rewarded for it, not by presents at christmas but by entry into the nice part of the afterlife. Now most of us over the age of 10 will agree that Santa doesn't exist. What that doesn't mean is that if your good throughout the year you won't get presents. When Christmas day rolls around if you've been good you actually will get presents.
What that means is that even if God doesn't exist, in the same way Santa doesn't, that doesn't mean there isn't an afterlife you can gain entry into by doing what you believe was right.

I actually think that God does exist therefore purely because people believe in him and base their lives around what they think he would want them to do. That's almost the proof of his existance, his ability to effect someone's life and their actions. It's not some floaty being up there in the sky, but in the switches in people's brain that make them not do something. God exists because people believe he exists. If everyone stopped believing he wouldn't exist. Terry Pratchett explored the idea in "small gods" and personally I believe he got it spot on!

The brain is basically a very complex neural net.. Inputs go in and get converted into outputs. A neural net works based on assigning values to certain paths through the network. Now the question is, what is controlling the values in that path. Free will would imply that "us" whatever that is has control over the values, so can alter the outputs by fiddling with the numbers (selecting outputs that we like and re-inforcing them). Not having free will would assume that the values are simply changing based purely on environmental stimulai such as pain is bad and no pain is good, with no master operator. To compare it to the rock.. the rock has no input so is unable to re-program itself based upon it's environment. We can decide that an action was bad, and alter ourselves to try to reduce the chances of that happening again.
Saying you have the ability to pick up a knife and stab someone, so you must have free will is also misleading.. since you didn't pick up the knife and didn't stab the person. How do you know that you actually ever had the ability to do it? (don't try this at home kiddies!)

Thats a good view on religion, it's a shame most religious people would not agree with you.

 

[Saggy]

Personally i'm a norse(many names for it) religion believer, which is more towards the ways of life and general beliefs on issues, then about this god and that.

Asatro, Finnish or Scandinavian mythology? After reading lots of your posts about this subject I've came down to conclusion that this norse stuff is more of an way of life than religion to you, correct? Its more about respecting than believing?

n/p: Turisas - Sahti-Waari

 

[Gorbachioo]

Define religion for us please?

Maybe the fact religion doesn't have one fixed meaning but has several, each seen in a different view by a different person?

Fuck off out of this forum - we don't need anyone ignorant like you here.

If you believe in a religion that has a god or some other almighty creature then you're a moron. If you believe in a religion that does not have a god then this discussion isnt about you so fuck off.

You know what we're talking about here.

Oh and a... blow me you little PC twat

 

[Golena]

If you believe in a religion that has a god or some other almighty creature then you're a moron.

If you believe that such a creature doesn't exist your just as large a moron.

The difference is your both a moron and an asshole.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Asatro, Finnish or Scandinavian mythology? After reading lots of your posts about this subject I've came down to conclusion that this norse stuff is more of an way of life than religion to you, correct? Its more about respecting than believing?

n/p: Turisas - Sahti-Waari

Quite true, it's more of the way then the religion, though the belief of several deities,Valhalla etc. exists.

 

[Gorbachioo]

If you believe that such a creature doesn't exist your just as large a moron.

The difference is your both a moron and an asshole.

So..... If im not religious im a moron?

Riiight.... ok...... okidoki..... righto.




And whether im an asshole or not is questionable, but i just dont see why i should respect someone whos willing to base his life on something that he has no reason to believe in.

 

[Bugz]

If you believe in a religion that has a god or some other almighty creature then you're a moron. If you believe in a religion that does not have a god then this discussion isnt about you so fuck off.

You know what we're talking about here.

Oh and a... blow me you little PC twat

Actually the thread was about belief in a God. By introducing religion into it, you're stepping on a whole different court.

I'd suggest you do a bit of research into the matter instead of being ogre-like and throwing silly statements into the air

PC? Nah. Common sense? Most likely

 

[Raven]

Believe in whatever, just don't try and force those beliefs onto other people.

Personally i don't believe in any gods.

 

[Thadius]

I don't believe in any form of God, thats the simple part.

Its when other religions try to force it down my throat or think that I am beneath them for not worshipping the same way as them. I have no problem, people can worship whatever they want to, as long as it doesn't involve things like rape and murder.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Actually the thread was about belief in a God. By introducing religion into it, you're stepping on a whole different court.

I'd suggest you do a bit of research into the matter instead of being ogre-like and throwing silly statements into the air

PC? Nah. Common sense? Most likely

With religion i mean belief in a god. Ok perhaps these two are not the same thing but you know very well what i mean. So just piss off with those smartass comments ;o

 

[old.Tohtori]

With religion i mean belief in a god. Ok perhaps these two are not the same thing but you know very well what i mean. So just piss off with those smartass comments ;o

Pot...kettle..."color of night".

You claim that people who believe in something are morons, yet you act like one yourself by insulting people for what they do with their own lives.

You may not agree with people and their beliefs, but yet again, i have to remind that it doesn't give you the right to insult people for them.

 

[Bugz]

With religion i mean belief in a god. Ok perhaps these two are not the same thing but you know very well what i mean. So just piss off with those smartass comments ;o

So it's okey to insult something you don't actually properly know how to define?

Riiiight.

 

[Overdriven]

Gorbachioo is getting owned harder than a.. Well, you know.

 

[Gorbachioo]

So it's okey to insult something you don't actually properly know how to define?

Riiiight.

Believing in a god = dumb

Believing in a religion = really.... really dumb´


happy now?

 

[Gorbachioo]

Pot...kettle..."color of night".

You claim that people who believe in something are morons, yet you act like one yourself by insulting people for what they do with their own lives.

You may not agree with people and their beliefs, but yet again, i have to remind that it doesn't give you the right to insult people for them.

Yeah if only religious people kept it to theirselves. But they dont. They start with brainwashing their kids, and then they move on to brainwashing others.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Gorbachioo, are you just sitting there with your fingers in your ears going "alalalalalalalaa! i can't hear you!" or do you actually try to read and understand what is being said?

Ironically fingers-ears wouldn't really work...

Yeah if only religious people kept it to theirselves. But they dont. They start with brainwashing their kids, and then they move on to brainwashing others.

EDIT: Since you managed to post right before me. Anyhoo, sure, some religions are like that. But is that your basis for insulting ALL people?

 

[Bugz]

Believing in a god = dumb

Believing in a religion = really.... really dumb´


happy now?

You're a joke kiddo

 

[Gorbachioo]

You're a joke kiddo

Ironic to hear you say that ;p


Can we now get back on the subject? Im tired of answering your smartass comments.


There is no reason to believe in a god and it should be obvious to you by now because you cant come up with a decent answer to support your way of thinking.

Instead, you make comments like this that have nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Golena]

So..... If im not religious im a moron?

Riiight.... ok...... okidoki..... righto.

You BELIEVE that there's not a god. There's a religion right there!

People who arn't religious don't say there isn't a god, they say there's no proof that there's a god so i'm not going to believe in it.

I don't personally think there's a god. I'm quite happy to accept that since I can't prove that there isn't, that if I want to go about screaming, there is no god, i'm no better than those screaming there definately is a god.
I like most (or all) people on this planet simply don't have enough facts to be able to say conclusively either way..

Want to share with us your concrete proof that there definately 100% isn't a god. Oh you don't have it.. so why are people who think there is a god any more stupid than you again?

 

[Bugz]

Ironic to hear you say that ;p


Can we now get back on the subject? Im tired of answering your smartass comments.


There is no reason to believe in a god and it should be obvious to you by now because you cant come up with a decent answer to support your way of thinking.

Instead, you make comments like this that have nothing to do with the topic.

I don't think you understand the concept of religion at all.

Ever wondered why there's so many different religions, so many different branches of each religion and then those that sit in the middle between religion and science? Ever wondered why some believe in a God as a figure in the sky, while other's believe him in a more spiritual sense and then others believe in him in a scientific sense?

You're stupidity and lack of knowledge is absurd. Go take some R.S lessons and then get back to us

 

[Gorbachioo]

You BELIEVE that there's not a god. There's a religion right there!

People who arn't religious don't say there isn't a god, they say there's no proof that there's a god so i'm not going to believe in it.

I don't personally think there's a god. I'm quite happy to accept that since I can't prove that there isn't, that if I want to go about screaming, there is no god, i'm no better than those screaming there definately is a god.
I like most (or all) people on this planet simply don't have enough facts to be able to say conclusively either way..

Want to share with us your concrete proof that there definately 100% isn't a god. Oh you don't have it.. so why are people who think there is a god any more stupid than you again?

No i dont have the proof. But i do know that there is no reason to believe that a god excists, and that is enough. Again this is about the special treatment that religion gets. You wouldnt accept the excistance of the spaghetti monster without evidence but you do accept it if its about god.

 

[Gorbachioo]

I don't think you understand the concept of religion at all.

Ever wondered why there's so many different religions, so many different branches of each religion and then those that sit in the middle between religion and science? Ever wondered why some believe in a God as a figure in the sky, while other's believe him in a more spiritual sense and then others believe in him in a scientific sense?

You're stupidity and lack of knowledge is absurd. Go take some R.S lessons and then get back to us

Thats irrelevant. Theres no reason to believe that theres a bearded guy sitting on a cloud and theres no reason to believe that god is everywhere around us. There is no reason to believe that god excists in any form.

And bugz... I think the stupid one here is you. ><

 

[Golena]

No i dont have the proof. But i do know that there is no reason to believe that a god excists, and that is enough. Again this is about the special treatment that religion gets. You wouldnt accept the excistance of the spaghetti monster without evidence but you do accept it if its about god.

How do you know the earth orbits the sun?

For most people this is because we've read it in a book, and been told about it on TV. I very much doubt that most people who would argue that this is true in the street have actually done any (meaningfull) research into it at all. Pretty much everything you think you know is stuff that's simply been told to you as the way things are.
Religion is much the same except the teachings come from someone else.

I believe the scientists, mainly because that's how I was brought up. If you were brought up being told that religion was correct then it's probably just as reasonable as your scientific theories are.

The spagetti monster argument works because it's something that neither side believe in, so appears equally stupid to both. It's unlikely that in your lifetime you'll actually be able to work out which side is correct. What you have to decide is who you believe more, and that's almost certainly going to be the side that was made most credible to you at an early age, not always the side that's correct.

 

[Gorbachioo]

How do you know the earth orbits the sun?

For most people this is because we've read it in a book, and been told about it on TV. I very much doubt that most people who would argue that this is true in the street have actually done any (meaningfull) research into it at all. Pretty much everything you think you know is stuff that's simply been told to you as the way things are.
Religion is much the same except the teachings come from someone else.

I believe the scientists, mainly because that's how I was brought up. If you were brought up being told that religion was correct then it's probably just as reasonable as your scientific theories are.

The spagetti monster argument works because it's something that neither side believe in, so appears equally stupid to both. It's unlikely that in your lifetime you'll actually be able to work out which side is correct. What you have to decide is who you believe more, and that's almost certainly going to be the side that was made most credible to you at an early age, not always the side that's correct.

The difference is that the scientists are willing to teach you to see for yourself. They are willing to have their evidence examined and science is openly discussed. Religious people do none of these things.

That was a really bad argument :c