Beleif vs. Non-Beleif

[kirennia]

edit : Sorry for misspelling the title

I'll start off by saying, I believe in no God. If you believe in a God, higher being, the existance of souls or anything of that nature, more power to you; this is just something which has been bugging me for quite some time, I just never bothered to post it.

If we are to believe each person is merely a product of their environment which seems to be the logical conclusion to draw from not being controlled from above, do we really have any control over any single action we do? I guess this is just a discussion about the butterfly effect in depth.

If we are a product of our environment, every action we take, a footstep in a different place, an added word in a sentence, everything we'll ever do will change every small detail of our lives from that moment onwards. We may not realise it at the time but a slight different body movement will effect the next movement which will effect the next and so on and so forth. No matter how small the changes are, they're still there. As such, every little movement will in turn effect anyone we come into contact with, whether it be a different step they take, a tiny change in their bodies position or whatever, they're still effected as a result. As such, everyone they then come into contact with will change and it'll come to pass whereby everyones actions throughout the world will in turn be changed by a small step change you took one day.

Now, with that in mind, with us being only a product of our environment, surely the only reason we took that different step was because of the collosal amount of collisions, movements, everything we've ever encountered in our lives. If we are nothing but a body, how are we different from a rock? A piece of paper? Surely everything is only being changed by what came before it, all moulded from the time where the universe was first created.

When we were born, our mind assembles itself from everything around it, in fact, even our body came out the way it did because of everything which our parents did in their lives (keep going up the family tree, all of it effected us). We're born with a set of instructions in our head and with those set and only built on through life experiences, is the only reason I'm writing this, because of everything which happened earlier?

Does this mean we have no control over what we do? Okay so we can think, feel, touch but surely those electrical signals are only drawing themselves from a stale mould which we were destined to live out.


While I can't force myself to beleive in a God, does NOT beleiving make me nothing greater then the ground I walk on?


Sorry to rant or whatever, am sure someone here can probably describe better in words what I'm trying to say, just thought I'd share the thought.

 

[pikeh]

i porbably cant cos im wastedd!
and there is toooo many long words in there
lol
kudos anyway!

 

[liloe]

Well personally I believe in God, but you're not the first one with those thoughts.

What you describe is a bit of science, that tries to calculate human life based on physical and chemical reasons, which lead to another thing. "Actio et reactio" so to speak.

The idea is, that everytime you have the values and the formula, you can calculate the answer, like 3+4=7, just more complicated.

Just an assumption:
You have substance A and substance B in your brain and if those two react which each other, you lift your right arm. Now the moment someone sees those two substances flowing together, he'll know what you're gonna do in a millisecond. Now assume that you know what causes these two substances to flow...you get the picture.
This also assumes that everything you do randomly has its source somewhere. Maybe when I was born, I did a harsh turn left and some chemistry in my head made me love MMORPG's (just as example )

So the principle is, that you can't do anything, because once the ball started to roll, there is no stopping, except destroying everything.

This all ofc assumes, that you have no way whatsoever to control anything at all, meaning that if you know the formulas and the values, you can calculate what someone will be doing in 3h 10m and 53s exactly.

This is the theory and some of that turned into practice already, if you look at the psychopharmaceutical industry. Basically they produce pills that manipulate the chemistry in your head, thus influencing your reactions.

Now that theory is interesting, but ofc the flaw is, that we don't know all the rules and all the values and we don't even know if there's a rule for everything.

Personally I believe that humans were given their absolute free will and so I believe, that there is some instance of the brain that can manipulate and fool these rules in some small way.

This isn't something new either, though, just look at all the theories about PSI-powers. Sure it's some force or energy, but not really bound to physical or chemical rules at all. It might sound a bit lunatic to talk about PSI, but hell, it's just as unproven as the theory of 100%-rules =)

 

[aika]

I dont believe in this "fascist in the skies" as he is described in the bible. Maybe there's some sort of supreme being, but surely he is nothing like that angered teenager he is in the bible.

 

[liloe]

I dont believe in this "fascist in the skies" as he is described in the bible. Maybe there's some sort of supreme being, but surely he is nothing like that angered teenager he is in the bible.

Not to be nasty, but I believe that as soon as you quote me on it =) Find me quotes for your two points and I will shut up =)

 

[aika]

Not to be nasty, but I believe that as soon as you quote me on it =) Find me quotes for your two points and I will shut up =)

well, its not really a quote, you need to read (it was part of the educational system where i live so I had to study it). Basically he shows lots of anger and stuff there if you doubt his certainity.

Now anger is a feeling which immortal beings can not have by definition, since anger is a human emotion which helps you survive, so if you cant die, how can you be angry or even more, how can you have any feelings at all, if you see all the world as just a bunch of atoms?

Also there're loads of mistakes in the bible, like when Joshua stopped the sun so night wont come. Now this might sound ok if you're living in the 9th century BC, but today we all know that the Earth is rotating around the Sun and not vice versa. A supreme being like God should know that.

Another funny thing is just in the start of the Bible, during the creation of the world. God created Light on the 2nd day, and the Sun and the stars on the 5th or 6th (cant remember exactly now), this thing leaves some questions as well
Just basically doubting the bible's authencity as a book written by God.

 

[Punishment]

God is not the issue here ... Faith is the issue

Personally i dont believe in god in the way he is described in the Bible , people with ''Faith'' have things happen to them and their families Irl and question their ''Faith'' in sofar as ... How can God let this happen ??? etc and as a result lose faith .

I believe their must be a higher power involved at some point simply because if you go right back to the start and the big band there has to have been a catalyst to start things off ... Nothing can just happen (Although i do also believe if we go down this route we will soon find what actually existed before the ''Big Bang'' is beyond our understanding)

Back to my main point and people losing faith ... The bible describes an all seeing all knowing omnipresent God who is both vengeful and heavy handed , i think none of this is the case and i believe god is actually some form of higher being who like a gardener planted the seeds for life and simply moved on and left us to fend for ourselves and he has done this before and continues to do it as we discuss this ... he is not vengeful , nor is he judgeful ... he just IS

But then we can discuss the human mind ... a rather long winded subject .

Some people are naturally more confident in themselves than others and some people more brave , so if we dont believe in god then we ourselves become the supreme being simply because we refuse to look elsewhere for a figure to worship/idolise etc ... this inevitably will lead to conflict .

Explain to me what is it that makes a person put their own existance in jeapordy to save the life of another , or what makes someone go that extra mile to better themselves , or indeed ... what makes a person want to make the existance of any other being more enjoyable ???

Fear that god is judging you ???

Divinity ???

What then ?

 

[liloe]

well, its not really a quote, you need to read (it was part of the educational system where i live so I had to study it). Basically he shows lots of anger and stuff there if you doubt his certainity.

Anger and stuff isn't really accurate and by your definition, showing anger makes you a fascist? =)

Now anger is a feeling which immortal beings can not have by definition, since anger is a human emotion which helps you survive, so if you cant die, how can you be angry

This is what you assume, though. Few people met immortal beings =)

or even more, how can you have any feelings at all, if you see all the world as just a bunch of atoms?

Well if you're angry, there's a lot of chemistry going around in your body, that is fact. Unproven - as I said - is, if there's "something" causing it or if a precise formula is causing it.

Also there're loads of mistakes in the bible, like when Joshua stopped the sun so night wont come. Now this might sound ok if you're living in the 9th century BC, but today we all know that the Earth is rotating around the Sun and not vice versa. A supreme being like God should know that.

This is documented by other sources aswell, babylonian if I'm not mistaken, which gives two indipendent sources for the same event.

Another funny thing is just in the start of the Bible, during the creation of the world. God created Light on the 2nd day, and the Sun and the stars on the 5th or 6th (cant remember exactly now), this thing leaves some questions as well

My room has light without the sun =) Light isn't neccessarily the sun.

Just basically doubting the bible's authencity as a book written by God.

Many do that, but often when you ask, people can't really give you exact reasons. A little example:

Have you heard of the book Daniel? Now if you don't believe in the Bible itself, but prefer science, then I can assure you, that it was scientists who analyzed scrolls found in Qumran. Those scriptures were written in Babylon, but contain a foresight on the following empires, up to Alexander the Great. They also have a prophecy about the birth of Jesus with very exact timing.

I'm not gonna go into deep arguing cause for one this isn't really the topic of this thread and second I don't like 1-side arguments, because I have some kind of feeling, that you don't really care that much =)

 

[Punishment]

Alot of ''Faith'' In your Side of the arguement liloe

 

[liloe]

Alot of ''Faith'' In your Side of the arguement liloe

Ah well =) I don't deny that I believe what the Bible says =)

I have to admit, that faith is a big part of religion cause there are things you can't simply explain =)

 

[eksdee]

the idea of believing in something that can not pheasibly be proved - and is blissfully celebrated in it's inprovability (if that is even a word) by it's followers, is to me the root of all that is wrong with humanity.

i can not prove or disprove the existence of a monster in my closet at night, i can not prove or disprove that there may be aliens in space... and yet, the majority of us scoff at such beliefs. so why god, or any other deity for that matter?

when you consider religion can be attriubted to be a major reason for almost every major war or conflict, for the constant hate from certain sections of human beings to others, i can only see faith and religion as the most evil and troubling thing on the planet.

above all else, (this time specifically the christian church) how can anyone be stupid enough to follow a faith that preaches poverty to it's followers while it is one of the single most rich and powerfull organisations on the entire planet.

the argument that 'god willed it so' or 'i have faith' to back up any conceivable argument against religion simply won't stand up when we have scientists disproving bigger and bigger parts of religion with every passing year. religion is truly a thing of the past and my belief is that this planet will forever be taking one step forward while taking two back until people stop believing in such idiocy and start living for the future, for the world that exists now.

</rant> 8>

 

[eksdee]

Ah well =) I don't deny that I believe what the Bible says =)

I have to admit, that faith is a big part of religion cause there are things you can't simply explain =)

how can you believe a book that has been repressed thousands of times, is patently a collection of stories (and is described as such) and i am assuming you can not even speak the language in which the bible was originaly written. nuances and such of old languages can never be translated properly, so even from the most optimistic point of view - you are getting a skewed view on things that you could not even prove to be true in their ORIGINAL state. how can you possibly base a life-governing faith around this? logically it is utterly absurd.

 

[liloe]

the idea of believing in something that can not pheasibly be proved - and is blissfully celebrated in it's inprovability (if that is even a word) by it's followers, is to me the root of all that is wrong with humanity.

i can not prove or disprove the existence of a monster in my closet at night, i can not prove or disprove that there may be aliens in space... and yet, the majority of us scoff at such beliefs. so why god, or any other deity for that matter?

when you consider religion can be attriubted to be a major reason for almost every major war or conflict, for the constant hate from certain sections of human beings to others, i can only see faith and religion as the most evil and troubling thing on the planet.

above all else, (this time specifically the christian church) how can anyone be stupid enough to follow a faith that preaches poverty to it's followers while it is one of the single most rich and powerfull organisations on the entire planet.

the argument that 'god willed it so' or 'i have faith' to back up any conceivable argument against religion simply won't stand up when we have scientists disproving bigger and bigger parts of religion with every passing year. religion is truly a thing of the past and my belief is that this planet will forever be taking one step forward while taking two back until people stop believing in such idiocy and start living for the future, for the world that exists now.

</rant> 8>

This is what I meant earlier, people tend to mix up stuff and not really talk about the subject itself. Church isn't equal to religion.

Not the faith preaches poverty, you're talking about one specific institution here: the roman catholic church. Not to sound rude or anything, but your post is the typical standard "it's all shit but I have no arguments" answer you get, when trying to talk about religion. It's just a big mass of generalisation and calling apples bananas. Religion was never a reason for wars, religion was often used as cover for normal wordly reasons to make war.
It's just the usual 1-side medal thing, like the "scientists who disprove more and more of the Bible". (I just realise I sound a bit harsh, but no offence meant). All I hear is rant rant rant, but no real facts/arguments etc. Science can be very accurate, but some parts have to be analyzed very critically, even other scientists have to admit that.

I'm not forcing anyone to think like me, but hell, for once bring real arguments =)

 

[Punishment]

Faith is what binds us together as human beings

Without it we are nothing but individuals with only individual and selfish interests .

The only thing that will result in no ''Worship Figure'' being in play is people only worrying about #1 also know as the ''Kim Jong Il'' effect .

Without ''Faith'' people feel alone/afraid/weak/helpless and will not strive to be all they can be or go out of their way to help anyone but themselves (Law of the Jungle etc)

''Faith'' has done so much more good than bad in the world imo

 

[liloe]

... and i am assuming you can not even speak the language in which the bible was originaly written. nuances and such of old languages can never be translated properly

This is correct, hebrew has lots of nuances that neither english nor german have, although english is sometimes a little more accurate.

so even from the most optimistic point of view - you are getting a skewed view on things that you could not even prove to be true in their ORIGINAL state. how can you possibly base a life-governing faith around this? logically it is utterly absurd.

Well the thing is rather easy. I study translation and if some day you need to know what's written right there in German and I translate it, you kinda have to believe what I say, right? So in the same way I assume that those who translated the Bible knew what they were talking about and as little addition, many Bibles explain the hebrew/greek nuances of the original scriptures and thus clarify many things.

 

[eksdee]

but where are your real arguments? i completely see what you're saying, but my whole point is that there are NO FACTS to prove religion, while the facts which you try to discredit from science are far more grounded in solid, believable facts.

i am really disinterrested in any sort of argument about religion from years of hearing the same crap from idiots who 'have seen the light' and are deluded enough to let their life be swayed for them by bigots in churches with their easy life styles, their money and their soddomy of young boys. anyone who will let their life be led for them, by someone else, is surely mad as far as i can see it. you lead one life and yet you're willing to lead it believing in something you will never, ever be able to truly believe in because there will always be the nagging thought at the back of your head that maybe you chose the wrong god - or there isn't one at all.

really what people crave is not a god, or faith but a reason to make death seem less scary. it is the one undeniable truth of being human; that we will all one day, and that it is inexorable. thinking about the future in these terms, and letting yourself be lead there by a spitefull, biggoted and utterly faceless 'god', is in my view the biggest tragedy any human could ever suffer. live for today, what you can physically grasp and what your brain can comprehend truly and utterly. experience the true and wonderfull things in life before they are taken away from you, don't spend your entire life trying to live up to some impossible, backward moral code that contradicts itself at every turn.

you are born, eventually you die. the bit in between is called life - and wasting it trying to graps impossibly on to a belief system that will ultimately never truly satisfy due to its vaugeness is such a tragic fate. so stop wasting what little time you have on this earth by trying to escape the one thing that you can not possibly avoid, death.

 

[liloe]

but where are your real arguments? i completely see what you're saying, but my whole point is that there are NO FACTS to prove religion, while the facts which you try to discredit from science are far more grounded in solid, believable facts.

Well I started off with the book of Daniel, if you read all my posts =)

i am really disinterrested in any sort of argument about religion from years of hearing the same crap from idiots who 'have seen the light' and are deluded enough to let their life be swayed for them by bigots in churches with their easy life styles, their money and their soddomy of young boys. anyone who will let their life be led for them, by someone else, is surely mad as far as i can see it. you lead one life and yet you're willing to lead it believing in something you will never, ever be able to truly believe in because there will always be the nagging thought at the back of your head that maybe you chose the wrong god - or there isn't one at all.

This is what I meant with: "you're confusin church and religion". You see the same shit on television each day and still people watch it, doesn't mean television itself is shit though. I never sodomised a young boy and the Bible doesn't really command to do so

really what people crave is not a god, or faith but a reason to make death seem less scary. it is the one undeniable truth of being human; that we will all one day, and that it is inexorable.

I partially agree there. No-faith doesn't exist imho, cause everyone is looking for something.

thinking about the future in these terms, and letting yourself be lead there by a spitefull, biggoted and utterly faceless 'god', is in my view the biggest tragedy any human could ever suffer. live for today, what you can physically grasp and what your brain can comprehend truly and utterly. experience the true and wonderfull things in life before they are taken away from you, don't spend your entire life trying to live up to some impossible, backward moral code that contradicts itself at every turn.

I don't agree at all. God is neither faceless nor bigot and the Bible doesn't contradict itself at every turn.

you are born, eventually you die. the bit in between is called life - and wasting it trying to graps impossibly on to a belief system that will ultimately never truly satisfy due to its vaugeness is such a tragic fate. so stop wasting what little time you have on this earth by trying to escape the one thing that you can not possibly avoid, death.

This is why society is turning into an egomaniac crowd that tries to snatch every little bit they can get without giving a damn about the others around and I do not really like that. Also, the point if I'm wasting my time with religion is something hard to judge for you I guess =) Personally I never felt I missed something in life, due to being religious. Contrary, I made a lot of nice experiences and friends inside my church.

(Okok, really off to bed now, getting sleepy =) )

 

[Punishment]

Live for the day ... Impossible , backward moral code ...

What you are describing is called Anarchy my dear boy

On topic : Have a little faith and trust in the belief's of those who came before you and brought you to the stage of life you are now at ( There are many people less fortunate .) Also try and be a little bit less cynical .

P.S. I am not afraid of death ... when i go to where my grandparents/great grandparents etc went in their time ... i dont care if its the perfect bliss of eternal heaven or just as a piece of dirt without awareness for eterniy , i will still be with them , that is all that matters

 

[Heta]

personally I believe that everyone so far on this planet have lived for only one reason, and that is to ready the world for me...

and tbh, discussing belief or no belief on a forum is impossible since there only be 2 sides stonewalling each other, be easier to come to a conclusion whether Vlad is gay or not or something similar

and asking religious people to show facts on that there is a god is just stupid, as they believe, kinda the corner stone in a belief, so they need no proof and good for them, wish I had something like that but as I can't simply rely on belief I will never find religion, and consider people believing in a god to be slightly insane

yes, the first thing I said was not serious...

 

[British]

Me, I believe in Science :england:and that's it.

Tbh, the world would be such a better place without religions. And people who try to convince me otherwise, they make me really angry. I usually tell them to piss off before I am tempted to kick their arse.

 

[Heta]

na, it would not matter if there were no religion, people would just find other reasons to fight for, its in the nature of mankind sadly enough

 

[British]

Would We Be Better Off Without Religion?

Good article for those who can be arsed to read it.

 

[Heta]

they should do a

"Would we be better without warmonger" instead

our way of thinking is grounded from religion, doesn't really matter if you believe it or not but our way of thinking and acting, compassion for other people and what is right and what is wrong have its grounds in religion.

 

[Jeremiah]

Tbh, the world would be such a better place without religions. And people who try to convince me otherwise, they make me really angry. I usually tell them to piss off before I am tempted to kick their arse.

Try telling that to the drug addicts and alcoholics in 'religious' rehab centres that are taking back their life. Or those who have went through divorce, both parents and children, and have repaired relationships through church counciling. Or those usually on the edge of society that no one would touch, until one day someone invites them to church (or other religious meeting) and they dont feel like a loner anymore. Not to mention the huge amount of work with the homeless, the poor and the starving. For all the evils that 'followers' of religion do in the world, theres a lot of good they do as well =)

 

[eksdee]

Live for the day ... Impossible , backward moral code ...

What you are describing is called Anarchy my dear boy

if you are actually serious then you are laughably uneducated. anarchism is the complete and utter opposite of anysuch "backward moral code".

as i said in a previous, or at least got at - this thread and the way both of you talk about your faith is exactly what i expect from religious nuts and it saddens me, truly. how people can be so willfully blinkered to the truth is upsetting.

i am not going to bother replying any more because i think a bickering match about beliefs and lives that essentially run parallel is pointless. just to make one point clear, i have no problem with whatever people choose to do with their lives as long as it does not effect my own life. i think it is pointless and self-defeating to constantly worry about everyone else without good reason to do so. if your faith brings you happiness then more power to you, but truly it does sadden me to see people so (in my view) misguided.

 

[tris-]

If we are to believe each person is merely a product of their environment which seems to be the logical conclusion to draw from not being controlled from above, do we really have any control over any single action we do?

i stopped reading here as i believe this be true 100%.

imo - its all predetermined.

 

[Heta]

and yet another nutter enters the house!

 

[tris-]

and yet another nutter enters the house!

pre determinism is more believable than a god imo.

reason being it actually makes sense.

 

[Jeremiah]

as i said in a previous, or at least got at - this thread and the way both of you talk about your faith is exactly what i expect from religious nuts and it saddens me, truly. how people can be so willfully blinkered to the truth is upsetting.

Guess what? You talk about your non-faith exactly the way I would expect from a non-religious nut. Why is their opinon not equally valid to yours?

i am not going to bother replying any more because i think a bickering match about beliefs and lives that essentially run parallel is pointless. just to make one point clear, i have no problem with whatever people choose to do with their lives as long as it does not effect my own life. i think it is pointless and self-defeating to constantly worry about everyone else without good reason to do so. if your faith brings you happiness then more power to you, but truly it does sadden me to see people so (in my view) misguided.

Wow, you just did the classic "I respect your belief, but I'll end my post in a way that leaves no doubt that I dont respect your belief" post. Why not just say "I think what you believe is a load of bull" without the attempt at sugar-coating? At least then you would be consistant =)

 

[liloe]

as i said in a previous, or at least got at - this thread and the way both of you talk about your faith is exactly what i expect from religious nuts and it saddens me, truly. how people can be so willfully blinkered to the truth is upsetting.

"The truth", my friend, is something very hard to point out here. I don't know why, but hell you got a lot of prejudices, because you don't really seem to see the difference between faith, religion and churches.

I hope you bother to reply, because how can you call me (or I take "us" as in everyone who thinks the same) a religious nutter, while knowing near to nothing about my private life =)